Parallel-sequential missions: allow returning to the past after completing a mission

[Vl3d]

Generally there are two ways to play KSP.

1. Sequential missions - completing a mission from start to finish, thus focusing their attention. The downside of this is warping through time and pushing the clock years in the future. This is especially bad for multiplayer and space races.

2. Parallel missions - launching, setting up maneuver nodes and alarms but not time warping. This maximizes the amount of missions you can do with a particular tech level in a certain time window.

I propose a third:

3. Parallel-sequential missions. A good way to play I think would be to finish a whole mission then go back in time and continue with other missions from the moment you launched. Recorded mission milestones would be added to the main timeline. And the science points would come in the future, thus respecting the timeline.

I think this would be useful for space races also, because I'm that case the timeline is very important and you can't really time warp because you're losing opportunities to launch more missions. So there's a lot of freedom to be gained by being able to go back in time. But from a gameplay perspective it's also very useful for the flow of the game to be able to focus on a single mission and finish it.

This system allows for massive gameplay expansion.. like stage recovery, having single player space races against an AI controlled agency and rocket construction time passing in the stock game.

Not to mention multiplayer (see multiplayer thread)!

Later edit:

Interaction with the craft could be feasable without resetting the recorded events timeline from that point onward if we have mechjeb-like automated control using milestones.

The craft (or capable subassembly in case of separation) would just try to adapt and continue with the mission even if crippled or modified. If the physics simulation doesn't allow it to be successful (not enough Delta V for example of broken solar panels) then.. yes it would fail.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Vl3d

[linuxgurugamer]

It's an interesting idea.  Actually may not be that difficult to implement, as long as you don't worry about a mission you are flying interacting with another mission/flight.

I can see this working by specifying a "return to" point in time to start, and then ending a mission  which which time you return to the starting time

[Vl3d]

17 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Actually may not be that difficult to implement, as long as you don't worry about a mission you are flying interacting with another mission/flight.

Actually, after returning to the starting time (T0), you can see your mission as taking place as if it was recorded. So if you want to interact with it at any time from the main timeline you would be able to do that, but then you would have to redo that mission from that point on (the recording is reset).

Another idea to think about is that if your building technology is upgraded meanwhile - let's say before the recorded mission ends in real-time - then that mission would also benefit from the change (like a Tracking Station upgrade, for example). So you can plan for the future. Although the problem would be what happens during the mission time - you would not have access to the upgraded TS because you did not upgrade it yet. So there are some causality problems to work out, but some can be ignored if interaction resets the recording.

And the beautiful thing is that all this would use the already implemented features of the "delivery routes" for example (seeing recorded craft on their paths or using point-to-point automated navigation based on the way the player already did the mission).

Edited February 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[Snafu225]

15 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I can see this working by specifying a "return to" point in time to start, and then ending a mission  which which time you return to the starting time

That would be FMRS just upscaled right? (was about to Link the mod in the forum but seeing you adopted it probably don't need to)
 

7 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Actually, after returning to the starting time (T0), you can see your mission as taking place as if it was recorded. So if you want to interact with it at any time from the main timeline you would be able to do that, but then you would have to redo that mission from that point on (the recording is reset).

Another idea to think about is that if your building technology is upgraded meanwhile - let's say before the recorded mission ends in real-time - then that mission would also benefit from the change (like a Tracking Station upgrade, for example). So you can plan for the future.

Help me out  here, in case I'm missing something here. Isn't that the same as what you can do with your mentioned parallel style? 
When I launch crafts and send them onto mission I still can interact with them, without any timeline trickery. And the KSC Upgrades should only come into effect after the first mission is completed (as I would get the rewards which would allow the upgrade), so if you want to benefit from it you'd still have to wait for it to be done. 

You could save about ~ 10 minutes ingame time (not real time) by let's say launching two crafts back to back, if you want to build for example a station really quick.

 

[Vl3d]

6 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

Isn't that the same as what you can do with your mentioned parallel style? 

In the parallel style you launch A, set up some maneuver nodes, maybe do a transfer burn and then you return to the KSC without time-warping and without finishing the mission.

The third way is to actually do the mission A - time-warp for years if necessary - then return to the past (to your selected T0) and do another mission. The A mission would then take place as you did it while you're doing something else. Basically it would play out as if it was recorded. This way you can do however many missions you want in parallel but you can also finish them in one sitting as if you did them sequentially. But time flows naturally in the main timeline, you don't waste years by time warping, you basically recover the time resource.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[Snafu225]

1 minute ago, Vl3d said:

In the parallel style you launch A, set up some maneuver nodes, maybe do a transfer burn and then you return to the KSC without time-warping and without finishing the mission.

The third way is to actually do the mission A - time-warp for years if necessary - then return to the past (to your selected T0) and do another mission. The A mission would then take place as you did it while you're doing something else. Basically it would play out as if it was recorded. This way you can do however many missions you want in parallel but you can also finish them in one sitting as if you did them sequentially. But time flows naturally in the main timeline, you don't waste years by time warping.

I understood that part. That's why I quoted the second post.

[Vl3d]

28 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

so if you want to benefit from it you'd still have to wait for it to be done

You can do N missions to the Mun and 1 mission to Duna. Benefits would come in the future, but the Mun missions are done first, so you get the rewards from those first. But the benefit would be available for the Duna mission.

I might add that it would be a waste to have 4 launch pads and not be able to use them all in single player. So you could do back to back launches without the afterthought that they would block each other on a single launch pad.

16 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

I understood that part. That's why I quoted the second post.

Can you clarify the question please?

Edited February 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[Snafu225]

36 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Can you clarify the question please?

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

Actually, after returning to the starting time (T0), you can see your mission as taking place as if it was recorded. So if you want to interact with it at any time from the main timeline you would be able to do that, but then you would have to redo that mission from that point on (the recording is reset).

Another idea to think about is that if your building technology is upgraded meanwhile - let's say before the recorded mission ends in real-time - then that mission would also benefit from the change (like a Tracking Station upgrade, for example). So you can plan for the future. Although the problem would be what happens during the mission time - you would not have access to the upgraded TS because you did not upgrade it yet. So there are some causality problems to work out, but some can be ignored if interaction resets the recording.

The question was in relation to the quoted section above:

Quote

Actually, after returning to the starting time (T0), you can see your mission as taking place as if it was recorded. So if you want to interact with it at any time from the main timeline you would be able to do that, but then you would have to redo that mission from that point on (the recording is reset).

You can do that with normal parallel mission progression from the get go. The mission which is already launched (the Duna mission in your example) and waiting for its transfer window is there anyway and I can interact with it, because I'm playing in one timeline in which it exists. I could still interact with it while it's on the transfer trajectory towards Duna (theoretically) but that would be one hell of a maneuver to pull that off and those transfer times are the biggest portion of those mission.
The usecase you describe is useful when one craft is actively maneuvering, that's what FMRS exists for but it's rather unlikely you'd want to interact with something that is moving/actively changing its orbit.
That's why I asked whether I'm missing the point.
 

Quote

Another idea to think about is that if your building technology is upgraded meanwhile - let's say before the recorded mission ends in real-time - then that mission would also benefit from the change (like a Tracking Station upgrade, for example). So you can plan for the future. Although the problem would be what happens during the mission time - you would not have access to the upgraded TS because you did not upgrade it yet. So there are some causality problems to work out, but some can be ignored if interaction resets the recording.

How do I explain that:

Disclaimer: Values are just made up.
Option 1:
Tracking Station is at Lvl 1. I start a Duna Mission lasting 300 days. It's on route towards Duna. I jump back to the KSC (without changing timeline) and start a rescue Mission which lasts 50 day and grants me enough funds to upgrade the Tracking Station to Lvl 2. The Duna Mission still benefits from it.

Option 2:
T1: Tracking Station is at Lvl 1. I start the Rescue Mission onto its trajectory towards the rescue "spot". I jump back to the KSC (again without changing timeline), launch my Duna Mission on it's transfer trajectory which takes 300 days and jump back to the Rescue mission and finish it. I get my rewards and upgrade the Tracking Station. The Duna Mission still benefits.

In both cases my Duna Mission benefits from the upgrade without any jumping/alternating timelines and in both cases I could have interacted with the respective other mission.

Even with jumping back on the timeline to the launch of the first mission, I'd have to wait for the smaller mission to end (in the background/alternate timeline) for me to earn the rewards, thus allowing me to upgrade only after waiting for 50 days  (in this example).

In the end I think this would be just really really confusing.
 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Snafu225
Spelling

[pandaman]

@Vl3d That's an interesting  idea.

[Vl3d]

41 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

it's rather unlikely you'd want to interact with something that is moving/actively changing its orbit

It depends. Maybe your original mission was in orbit of Kerbin for a long time waiting for a transfer window and you decide you want to dock to it meanwhile. So you could do that and the mission recording would reset.

41 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

In both cases my Duna Mission benefits from the upgrade without any jumping/alternating timelines and in both cases I could have interacted with the respective other mission.

Yes but if you do the Duna mission you use the initial TS level. You finish the Duna mission (record it) and then return to the past, do the other mission and upgrade the TS. Then when the Duna mission (which is already recorded) arrives at Duna, it should have had access to the current TS level. But it did not. It's a causality glitch but it can generally be ignored.

The fix would be to just leave the vessel in Duna orbit in the recording, return to the main timeline and do other missions, upgrade the TS, then time warp and return to the Duna craft which should have arrived in orbit, and finish the mission. There's a lot of creative freedom.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[Vl3d]

I think this idea could also be implemented in a simplified way in KSP1 using the FMRS foundations (maybe not having craft recordings while not on rails, just placing the vessels in the final positions at the appropriate time and remembering the future benefits you should receive).

Edited February 1, 2023 by Vl3d

[Snafu225]

28 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

It depends. Maybe your original mission was in orbit of Kerbin for a long time waiting for a transfer window and you decide you want to dock to it meanwhile. So you could do that and the mission recording would reset.

But if that craft is waiting in orbit for a transfer window  I can just go ahead and dock to it. Without the need to reset anything or jump around in time. Everything else just sounds like trying to fix an oversight in craftdesign or some mistake like the "revert to launch" button, but while being in orbit.

Edit: I think I get it now. You end up at duna and realise "whoops, I forgot xyz or xyz broke, let me jump back to kerbin orbit and send a craft there". Basically a revert to orbit button, as like you said, the recording would reset.
Edit2: Isn't that just quicksave/quickload?  

1 hour ago, Snafu225 said:

....  it's rather unlikely you'd want to interact with something that is moving/actively changing its orbit.

Despite that, I still think it's close to impossible to rendevouz with another craft while its orbit is changing. 

 

28 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

But it did not. It's a causality glitch but it can generally be ignored.

Oh so there's a bug that KSC upgrades don't influence crafts already in space? Honestly never knew. I'm pretty sure, last week my early carreer eve probe was out of range and after upgrading my tracking station it was fine. Anyways that sounds like hell of a workaround to "fix" a bug.

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by Snafu225
Edits marked above

[linuxgurugamer]

2 hours ago, Snafu225 said:

That would be FMRS just upscaled right? (was about to Link the mod in the forum but seeing you adopted it probably don't need to)

pretty much, but there are differences.  This would actually be a bit easier

2 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Actually, after returning to the starting time (T0), you can see your mission as taking place as if it was recorded. So if you want to interact with it at any time from the main timeline you would be able to do that, but then you would have to redo that mission from that point on (the recording is reset).

That would be very difficult with what you proposed.  Might as well just fly multiple missions.

 

2 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Another idea to think about is that if your building technology is upgraded meanwhile - let's say before the recorded mission ends in real-time - then that mission would also benefit from the change (like a Tracking Station upgrade, for example). So you can plan for the future. Although the problem would be what happens during the mission time - you would not have access to the upgraded TS because you did not upgrade it yet. So there are some causality problems to work out, but some can be ignored if interaction resets the recording.

I can see something along the lines of, if in the first mission you upgrade the building technology, that those events could be synced with the second mission

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

It depends. Maybe your original mission was in orbit of Kerbin for a long time waiting for a transfer window and you decide you want to dock to it meanwhile. So you could do that and the mission recording would reset.

Ummm, this wouldn't easily be doable, in fact, this would be a nightmare to deal with.  Now you will need to have the mod essentially duplicate everything that the game does regarding a vessel.  Now, possibly, if you restrict it to those times that the vessel was on rails, I suppose it could be doable, but this would still require a very deep integration with the  guts of the game

[Vl3d]

14 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

pretty much, but there are differences.  This would actually be a bit easier

That would be very difficult with what you proposed.  Might as well just fly multiple missions.

I can see something along the lines of, if in the first mission you upgrade the building technology, that those events could be synced with the second mission

Ummm, this wouldn't easily be doable, in fact, this would be a nightmare to deal with.  Now you will need to have the mod essentially duplicate everything that the game does regarding a vessel.  Now, possibly, if you restrict it to those times that the vessel was on rails, I suppose it could be doable, but this would still require a very deep integration with the  guts of the game

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

I think this idea could also be implemented in a simplified way in KSP1 using the FMRS foundations (maybe not having craft recordings while not on rails, just placing the vessels in the final positions at the appropriate time and remembering the future benefits you should receive).

I understand and agree with what you're saying, I was thinking about some more advanced things that could be done using KSP2 features. For KSP1 a simplified version could be very cool.

[linuxgurugamer]

Once you start playing with time, all bets are off, it doesn't matter what game you are playing with.

Sounds like you would be well satisfied with a good save game

 

[Drakenred65]

Didn’t yhe stage recovery mod do that …? Give me a tick

 

Not exactly see following posts.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Drakenred65
Correctly died mod sorry

[Drakenred65]

 

Flight manager for reusable stages by SIT89 and Omega o and Linexus Gamer…
 

 

[linuxgurugamer]

After thinking about this whole idea, it is obvious that there are a host of unanswered questions, at least for KSP1.  I'm sure that the same issues will apply to KSP 2.

For example:

• What happens to any vessels that were created in the first playthrough when you revert to the saved snapshot?
• What happens to any vessels that were destroyed in the first playthough?
• What do you do about any changes to vessels which were already in existence at the start of this?  Staging, parts destroyed, crew transfers, etc?

These are some questions that I came up with after only a few minutes of thinking about it.  I'm sure there are lots of other issues that can arise.

[Vl3d]

8 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

After thinking about this whole idea, it is obvious that there are a host of unanswered questions, at least for KSP1.  I'm sure that the same issues will apply to KSP 2.

For example:

• What happens to any vessels that were created in the first playthrough when you revert to the saved snapshot?
• What happens to any vessels that were destroyed in the first playthough?
• What do you do about any changes to vessels which were already in existence at the start of this?  Staging, parts destroyed, crew transfers, etc?

These are some questions that I came up with after only a few minutes of thinking about it.  I'm sure there are lots of other issues that can arise.

This would be the most basic system diagram I think.

Most kinks can be avoided if the mission recording resets in the case of interaction. In case of assuming direct control or interaction it just sets a new mainline T-zero and a new mission timeline starts. Returning to the starting point would be optional of course.

Braching off of mission timelines should be avoided. Best to only allow branching off of the main timeline and then focus exclusively on a mission until the desired on-rails / static state which marks the missions end is achieved (can be craft in orbit .. even a transfer is an orbit .. or landed or docked etc.).

This way craft state change, creation and destruction are just key points on the main timeline.

This system allows for massive gameplay expansion.. like having single player space races against an AI controlled agency. Not to mention the possibilities for multiplayer.

My instincts tell me this is close to the solution KSP2 will utilize.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Vl3d

[Bej Kerman]

It's an idea I like. Spending 40 years on a mission while the KSC does bog-all besides a few recorded routine missions would suck and so would having to juggle more than 2 missions which sounds tedious. I can get past the complications, I really just want a way to do my missions one-at-a-time without ending up with ridiculous times on the in-game clock,

[Vl3d]

@Ghostii_Spaceis this what KSP2 will be like? If not, could you please pass the idea along?

[stephensmat]

If recording missions is a thing (And I've heard rumors to that effect), then it's probably easily doable. (And certainly a lot easier than juggling five or six missions with an Alarm Clock.) My thing is this: You get science points on a flight to Duna, then you can't use them to unlock anything for the length of the mission.

Not an issue once you've unlocked everything, but who knows what else might be unlockable when you reach the Interstellar stage?

Edited February 2, 2023 by stephensmat

[Vl3d]

27 minutes ago, stephensmat said:

You get science points on a flight to Duna, then you can't use them to unlock anything for the length of the mission.

You actually get them in the future if you revert time. It's just another recorded event put as a key point on the main timeline. Causality must be preserved at all costs!

And yes, for the duration of the mission you're stuck with the tech level you had when you started. But that's how real life works too. The only thing I can think of that is of consequence is the Tracking Station (DSN) upgrade. But nothing is stopping you to end the mission while on transfer, revert time and do other missions, upgrade DSN, then time warp and finish the Duna landing.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Vl3d

[tstein]

16 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Generally there are two ways to play KSP.

1. Sequential missions - completing a mission from start to finish, thus focusing their attention. The downside of this is warping through time and pushing the clock years in the future. This is especially bad for multiplayer and space races.

2. Parallel missions - launching, setting up maneuver nodes and alarms but not time warping. This maximizes the amount of missions you can do with a particular tech level in a certain time window.

I propose a third:

3. Parallel-sequential missions. A good way to play I think would be to finish a whole mission then go back in time and continue with other missions from the moment you launched. Recorded mission milestones would be added to the main timeline. And the science points would come in the future, thus respecting the timeline.

I think this would be useful for space races also, because I'm that case the timeline is very important and you can't really time warp because you're losing opportunities to launch more missions. So there's a lot of freedom to be gained by being able to go back in time. But from a gameplay perspective it's also very useful for the flow of the game to be able to focus on a single mission and finish it.

This system allows for massive gameplay expansion.. like having single player space races against an AI controlled agency. Not to mention multiplayer!

That woudl be hellish complicated  to implement  AND would   go in a bad direction  of the feeling of managing a space program. It becomes too much  a n arcade feeling for me

[stephensmat]

One thought: Rendezvous. 

When I did Jool missions, I sent a large digger with a lot of engines on it. When my actual crew got there, I had a return booster waiting, full of fuel gathered from Pol or Bop, to bring them home. The Parallel Mission would only be able to work if there was only one craft in orbit at a time. Send a second craft to the same moon/planet, and there can be no interaction. Try to dock two craft during a single mission, and what happens?