How difficult would it be to "revoice" or add "voice options" to the tutorials?

[Turbo Ben]

9 hours ago, whatsEJstandfor said:

I think this is getting at the crux of it. Take any series that was originally meant for kids and teens, but that has a significant adult following. Star Wars, superhero movies, whatever. I would contend that any audience member who says they don't like some aspect of these series for being "too childish" or whatever are actually just reacting to the reality that they are no longer the target audiences. They don't like being reminded that the thing that has meant so much to them is no longer explicitly made for them. It's just another form of gatekeeping. One brought on by, I think, the embarrassment of being an adult fan of something that's "too childish". The feeling of, "Well, I like this thing, and I'm a serious adult, but now this thing makes me feel like a child! But I'm a serious adult who likes serious things, so this thing must be wrong; not me!" I understand that knee-jerk reflex, but I would 1000% argue that that's a wrongheaded reaction, and that, by trying to view media through the eyes of people who are not like you, you'll get to find so much more joy in art.

I think part of really, truly growing up is understanding that it's OK for things to not be made for you. Because it means that the people for whom the thing is made get to enjoy it exactly as much as you once did. 

This is exactly why I'm raising concerns about the tutorials. KSP's target audience should be people with an interest or curiosity in spacetravel. Any other targeting of the audience is just going to reduce the audience.

I'm not raising concerns for my own benefit. I learned what I need from KSP1 and will just skip the tutorials. My concern is for new players with no knowledge of KSP. Their first stop will be the tutorials. Do you really want to give anyone over the age of 12 the impression that KSP 2 isn't made for them?

Marvel and Star Wars, both now owned by Disney, have been heavily targeting their audience for a few years now. Result: they have a much smaller audience.

 

[The Aziz]

1 minute ago, Turbo Ben said:

KSP's target audience should be people with an interest or curiosity in spacetravel. Any other targeting of the audience is just going to reduce the audience

So, suddenly Kurzgesagt with their colorful animations is targeting 5-9 audience?

[Turbo Ben]

23 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

So, suddenly Kurzgesagt with their colorful animations is targeting 5-9 audience?

I haven't seen anyone raise concerns over the art style. This topic is about the voice.

Not familiar with kurzgesagt so just checked out a couple of YouTube vids.

Thanks for making my point that you don't need to talk like a kid to appeal to kids.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Turbo Ben

[The Aziz]

And we're back to square one, the voice is the problem that makes the whole thing "unmanly", but not the cartoon?

Yep, I'm done here.

[Turbo Ben]

16 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

And we're back to square one, the voice is the problem that makes the whole thing "unmanly", but not the cartoon?

Yep, I'm done here.

We were never away from "the voice is the problem". The clue is in the thread title.

Where did you get the quote "unmanly"?

 

[tstein]

22 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Breaking my commitment to not watching anything until release, I felt the need to watch some of the CC content related to the tutorials. 

I think the "overly chipper squeaky kid voice" is a mistake. 

As a teacher and someone hoping to introduce the game to tweens, teens and adults ‐ if all of the tutorials are in that voice you are going to turn people off.

Let me specifically address tweens and teens.  That voice is going to liquid them off.  No way to sugar coat this. 

5th graders and below will be fine with that voice.  Middleschoolers and high-school kids will resent it.  Adults who are interested will roll their eyes and put up with it... but if there is a target market of 12-17 yearolds, they're going to feel condescension and annoyance. 

Best case?  They mock the game on social media.   Most likely?   They will walk or avoid the tutorials. 

Strongly suggest recording a more mature sounding actor ‐ and treating older kids like young adults rather than precocious day care kiddos. 

Edit the n-th: I've heard the same voice actor speaking in a different video in a tone less 'talking to the Littles ' and it was fine.  Having her present the materials in a matter of fact tone similar to how M. Thaller does below will solve any reservations I have. 

 

Edit - for reference, here's Michelle Thaller talking to kids, and it works. 

 

 

 

I think you are forgetting one thing.  80% of world population is not a native english speaker.  For us, a high pitch voice is EASIER to understand  than a  news anchor voice.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

2 hours ago, tstein said:

I think you are forgetting one thing.  80% of world population is not a native english speaker.  For us, a high pitch voice is EASIER to understand  than a  news anchor voice.

Do you have a source for this?  Would be interesting to read about and discuss with my ESL coordinator. 

3 hours ago, The Aziz said:

And we're back to square one, the voice is the problem that makes the whole thing "unmanly", but not the cartoon?

Yep, I'm done here.

And @tg626, et. al.

This attitude is nothing I've brought into this, and as the OP I'm surprised that it took this turn.  The several sniping posts above make no sense in context with what I've written about my concerns with how 12-17 year old kids will respond to 'Magic Schoolbus' type of voices and tone.  I've pushed Michelle Thaller as an example of how to effectively communicate with kids of all ages without resorting to the sing-songy 'talking to Littles' voice I've described over and over again - showing zero gender-bias from the OP. 

You and others have injected this whole thing to sidetrack a valid concern and should really reassess your own conduct throughout this discussion.  Quit hijacking my thread for your own purposes! 

Edited February 22, 2023 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[MARL_Mk1]

I completely agree. The Voice actor choice was a mistake. Let me be clear. I'm not saying she's a bad VA. It just isn't the right choice for teaching rocket science, even in a simplified way.

[BeastHunter]

In my opinion, the worst part is the game trying to force-feed you the tutorials after you crash. If you crash into Eloo after an Eve ascent into a Jool 5, the game shouldn’t be telling you to take an orbiting tutorial. (Not saying I could do this, I can’t, I’m just saying this as a disclaimer.)

[Turbo Ben]

1 hour ago, tstein said:

I think you are forgetting one thing.  80% of world population is not a native english speaker.  For us, a high pitch voice is EASIER to understand  than a  news anchor voice.

That's an interesting point. A quick google search suggests that 20% of the world speaks English, with about 5% having it as their first language.

https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/how-many-people-speak-english-and-where-is-it-spoken

 

This means for KSP 2 to be global, tutorials will need to be in different languages. So, might be quite easy to change the tutorial audio.

[tstein]

4 minutes ago, Turbo Ben said:

That's an interesting point. A quick google search suggests that 20% of the world speaks English, with about 5% having it as their first language.

https://www.babbel.com/en/magazine/how-many-people-speak-english-and-where-is-it-spoken

 

This means for KSP 2 to be global, tutorials will need to be in different languages. So, might be quite easy to change the tutorial audio.

Yes, but those 80% that do not speak english are in a large part.  completely out of the market.. they do not even have computers at home. The important part of the population for the game is people that do buy games.   I live in south america and I can tell you that easily half the gamers can  understand spoken english (even if they  cannot speak it properly) when  the voice is CLEAN and moderately paced.. i.e.. talking to children. I bet they will eventually  add a few more languages,    but  having a voice that more people can understand is a nice stop gap.

23 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Do you have a source for this?  Would be interesting to read about and discuss with my ESL coordinator. 

 

I  am in south america and worked for 30 years in tech industry  with lots of people that have bad english language education. They constantly  could  only understand youtube tutorials for  tech issues  when the voices were  clear and  had very separated vowel sounds. For example for us here  is nearly impossible to understand an  Indian  speaking, but this voice of the tutorial I can  say that most people that  have completed  basic technical english  class at university can understand (most of it at least).  Whenever I had to assemble training material for the new employees I had to keep that in mind when  finding good sources for them to learn from. I suffered a lot with it until a friend that was an english teacher here advised me to look  for  material with young female voices that are easier to understand for people that are native of latin based languages.

[Turbo Ben]

1 minute ago, tstein said:

Yes, but those 80% that do not speak english are in a large part.  completely out of the market.. they do not even have computers at home.

China and India both have massive gamer populations (over a billion), most of which don't speak English. How many of them are PC gamers I couldn't say, but that's 2 massive potential markets. They both have fast developing space programs too, so there is likely to be some interest in a spaceflight sim.

[tstein]

India has more  people speaking english than UK

 

 

[Turbo Ben]

3 minutes ago, tstein said:

India has more  people speaking english than UK

 

 

Lol, that's very true. In fact India has more English speaking gamers than people in the UK.

That still leaves over 400 million gamers that don't speak English though!

[HebaruSan]

I have to object to phrasing a change request as "how difficult would it be" (in general, not just in this case; I've seen it before, including having it directed at myself, and it always reads like an attempt to beg the question). As if providing the difficulty estimate would satisfy the request. As if time or expense is the only possible reason not to do it.

The answer could still be, "It would be dead easy to change, but we're keeping it as it is because we did it this way for a reason, and we don't agree with the criticism."

Just state your objections, don't worry about how difficult it would be to change. That's the concern of the dev team, not us.

[Chibbob]

On 2/21/2023 at 3:25 PM, GoldForest said:

And I truly don't see what people hate about the voice actor. It's clearly autotuned voice to make it sound more kid friendly. I'd rather have a kid friendly voice than some adult talking in a monotone voice. 

Yes, the voice is a little squeaky, but that's the voice younger kids really find fun. 

A squeakier voice doesn’t make it more kid friendly…

I think you are saying this because it would be more relatable to young audiences, but I don’t see how that would help in any way.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Chibbob

[Profugo Barbatus]

3 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

I have to object to phrasing a change request as "how difficult would it be" (in general, not just in this case; I've seen it before, including having it directed at myself, and it always reads like an attempt to beg the question). As if providing the difficulty estimate would satisfy the request. As if time or expense is the only possible reason not to do it.

The answer could still be, "It would be dead easy to change, but we're keeping it as it is because we did it this way for a reason, and we don't agree with the criticism."

Just state your objections, don't worry about how difficult it would be to change. That's the concern of the dev team, not us.

Bingo. I don't really like it. I also don't really hate it. All I really got to say is "Its not the choice I would have made" and that's about it. They clearly have a mental image for the tone the game communicates to the player in, between this, the part description text, the end mission window, etc. 

I'm pretty sure anyone who finds the tutorials annoying will do what people have been trained to do for a decade now, search youtube for "KSP2 Tutorial moon landing" and go on their merry way.

[VlonaldKerman]

Yeah, I agree with OP to be completely honest. The Kerbals as a species are awesome because they are basically a distillation of the human drive for recklessness and creativity- they make you want to try, and fail, and in the process, learn. I just feel like having the voice be the way it currently is sort of misses what makes the Kerbals so likable. They aren't young children- they are definitely silly, curious, reckless, and idiotic in an endearing way, but they aren't bubbly. 

I feel like the OG Kerbal animations really capture what makes the Kerbals great protagonists for the game. For instance: 

 

 

These animations have tons of slapstick comedy which appeals to adults and children alike. The reason why children will like the Kerbals is not because their demeanor is similar to that of characters on a kids TV show, or that the things they do ought to be narrated in the voice that's currently in the tutorials. It's because they are enthusiastic, entertaining, and cute, but also stupid in the best way. It's largely about comedy, not friendliness, or bubbly-ness.

 

I don't mean to come across like I hate the voice in the tutorials- my opinion isn't very strong. I acknowledge the Kerbals are themselves like young children in many ways. However, I do think that a neutral observer would acknowledge that the atmosphere/vibe of the new tutorials is qualitatively different than that of, for instance, the old Kerbal shorts. Whether you think it's a good difference, is a matter of opinion. I will say, as a statement of fact, however, that a lot of my friends (high school) would enjoy these shorts, and even be interested in the game, but would probably be turned off to the game/put-off by the new tutorial narrator, at least slightly.

 

Just my 2c.

[tg626]

A sensible take.

For me the thing I disagree with is: A Kerbal speaking English.

Given that decision was made, I agree with what they did, but one of the things that makes a Kerbal a Kerbal (to me) is that backwards language they speak if they speak at all.

For that reason, and that reason alone, id have rather seen tutorials delievered in a more deliberately 4th wall breaking manner (IE not trying to make it as though a Kerbal is speaking to you)

But then I also sit here and think "Oh god forbid someone would have to READ like in KSP one while Von Kerman grunts at you" - but then I actually read the terminals in Fallout and the books in Skyrim too... and I doubt future games will continue to have that sort of effort applied to them either.

[snkiz]

I'm, 43, I have two early 20ish and one teen. I thought the VA was cute and fun, I thought the jokes hit better. My kids although they don't have the passion I do for the game, didn't have an issue with it. My teen chuckled at the impressive buildings joke. I think this is just making a mountain out of a molehill. I don't really think a Minor VA in a game like this is going to move the needle either way really. They are either going to be into it or not. None of mine are and the VA isn't going to change that. Though they do humour me.

[Zombie_Striker]

23Yo here. The voice is not a big deal. Yes, it would have been better to have Neil Degrasse Tyson or Scott Manly do it, as it would drive the 'cool' factor of having them in the game. The voice really isn't annoying.

The kids that will find it cringe or annoying most likely aren't the type to enjoy nerdy stuff. Let them enjoy the real gaming of CS:GO or whatever, and let the fans of nerdy science stuff enjoy ksp2.

[Klapaucius]

I think another question to ask: Why an American accent?  I am an American, but I live in New Zealand, and I got to thinking about how so much comes from a US filter. How about some different voices?  Diversity includes diversity of accent. There are Aussies, Kiwis, Brits, Irish, Indians, South Africans who are all native English-speakers and who all play KSP. And among those, there are a myriad of regional accents. 

[Drakenred65]

Ok first off we don't know if localisation included just subtitle, or actual voice acting as the French and German video I've seen did not did not even  show it, and one was just a 5 : 37 clipshow

 

Second it does take time and money to get videoes put together. Never mind having to tweek a video because different  language can and will force changes in timing and pacing.

Also, seriously having multiple people voicing individual clips  because DIVERSITY! seriously? I don't think anyone is going to hire a small choir of voice actors to record individual  multiple mini tutorials that are on the same language unless there's a decent reason, like the craft skill anf ability trainers in a mmo a while back where it was different genders and races for each one you interact with.

 

[The Aziz]

Sure let's hire a VA for every single English accent in existence. That's a problem only native English speakers could have, geez.

Just now, Drakenred65 said:

Ok first off we don't know if localisation included just subtitle

We do know, have you ever checked steam page?

[Stoup]

I thought this kind of argument might have been the reason Kerbalese was invented in the first place, wasn't it?