KSP2 as an Automation Game

[Vl3d]

From what I gather from interviews (Nate and EJ_SA for example), mature KSP2 gameplay will have a lot of elements similar to Factorio / Satisfactory / Dyson Sphere Program. I have to say Factorio is one of my favorite games so I really appreciate that.

I imagine that we will have to build our extraction / processing / transport vehicles and colonies and set up logistics networks using our creations. I have a hunch this delivery routes system will have its own management interface for automation. I think it's really cool because we'll be able to build "cheap" transports with basic materials we obtain and "expensive" exploration spaceships with more exotic elements. So basically we'll have to adapt to each planet and make the best designs we can (rovers, trucks, aeroplanes, helicopters, boats, rocket ferries etc.). There's a lot of reasons to design a new vehicle and constantly iterate. We'll always have something new to build or improve, even without contracts.

But what I found a little bit stale about automation games is the lack of interesting end goals. I think it's a really good idea for KSP2 to have exploration as its main purpose. Discovering the planets inside a new star system and their secrets, entering the atmosphere and landing for the first time, doing scientific experiments, exploring interesting anomalies.. I think that this is a good motivation to "grow the factory".

How do you feel about the construction and management simulation elements of the future KSP2? Any specific things you would want KSP2 to borrow from the other games I mentioned?

[Guest]

KSP2 is more a veichle simulation game, so more than Factorio I hope they go the OTTD way (the game Factorio has lifted its train system from) with the transport/logistic having a front and center role and the resource chain being as simple as possible.

[Vl3d]

30 minutes ago, Master39 said:

the resource chain being as simple as possible

I don't think it's going to be simple. I think there will be a moderately complex extraction - processing - storage chain also, because the colonies system is a construction game onto itself that seems to be getting a lot of attention from the devs. The purpose is to have us link all of them together with our vehicles, to have logistic hubs with resources. Probably like a simplified Surviving Mars in space. I like all of these games.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Vl3d

[regex]

I'm just here for the spaceships. If I'm going to have to manage a resource extraction/processing empire just to go interstellar I'm going to be pretty disappointed. I hate how sandbox games these days seem to require base building as a required component, hopefully that crap will be as minimal as possible.

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, regex said:

I'm just here for the spaceships. If I'm going to have to manage a resource extraction/processing empire just to go interstellar I'm going to be pretty disappointed. I hate how sandbox games these days seem to require base building as a required component, hopefully that crap will be as minimal as possible.

Sorry, how else were you expecting to build OABs? Interstellar scale construction is a physics problem and just lofting each piece one by one isn't the answer, especially when you can't fit a Daedalus engine in the VAB (which is a very reasonable restriction).

[regex]

Just now, Bej Kerman said:

Sorry, how else were you expecting to build OABs?

By launching them into orbit and connecting them up, just like building a space station.

Could also be cool to launch everything from the ground though, that would be a fun challenge.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

I don't think it's going to be simple

Simple as in with little middle steps.

Raw ore => Copper => Copper wire => Green Circuits => Radars => Rocket Part

Works fine for Factorio, but in KSP2 most of that would be colony micro-management.

They should make it more abstract and skip most of the steps that usually don't imply a transport between them.

Moving around "spare parts" or "rocket components" make sense if you want your factories planetside and your VAB orbital, but I wouldn't add any intermediate step between the raw materials and those rocket parts (like the Copper Wire in Factorio).

 

2 minutes ago, regex said:

I'm just here for the spaceships. If I'm going to have to manage a resource extraction/processing empire just to go interstellar I'm going to be pretty disappointed. I hate how sandbox games these days seem to require base building as a required component, hopefully that crap will be as minimal as possible.

Building something that actually works beats grinding random generated contracts that don't even make logical sense.

I don't see this much as a "nowadays sandbox games have base building" but just a required step of space exploration.

Without in-situ resource utilisation and off-planet construction you're not going far in space.

[regex]

Just now, Master39 said:

Building something that actually works beats grinding random generated contracts that don't even make logical sense.

Hopefully I didn't imply I wanted that sort of gameplay either.

Just now, Master39 said:

Without in-situ resource utilisation and off-planet construction you're not going far in space.

Cool, let me build it and forget it. I'm here for the spaceships. If I wanted to play Factorio I'd play Factorio.

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, regex said:

4 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Sorry, how else were you expecting to build OABs?

By launching them into orbit and connecting them up, just like building a space station.

How would the engineers fit the modules in the VAB? Nevermind the monster lofting it to orbit.

1 minute ago, regex said:

3 minutes ago, Master39 said:

Without in-situ resource utilisation and off-planet construction you're not going far in space.

Cool, let me build it and forget it. I'm here for the spaceships.

Yeah, and in order to build spaceships of the scale you're wanting you cannot build them without OABs which themselves will require modules on a similar scale to interstellar rockets. KSP 2's resource management has been explained to be "build it and forget it" itself so I'm struggling to see your issue with KSP 2 properly modelling the steps humans would go through to build interstellar vehicles.

[Vl3d]

4 minutes ago, regex said:

I'm here for the spaceships.

You will have to build a lot of trucks and boats too.

[MechBFP]

It sounds like it is going to be mostly around resource transportation/logistics rather than factory automation as @Master39allued to in his post. 
That does make sense to me given the scope/direction of the game. 
Although adding resource automation as well would a very fun idea to do for a mod. 

[regex]

6 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

KSP 2's resource management has been explained to be "build it and forget it" itself

Citation?

I don't see an issue making a space station, or even three, or dropping a colony and forgetting about it, but the last thing I want to do in this game is nitpick some production line and optimize a bunch of crap, or do repeat busywork or handle line emergencies, product back ups, and things like that to ensure a colony doesn't hIlaRiOusLY eXPloDe like in the trailers. That's my biggest worry about future features and gameplay because if that's what the next career mode will become I'll have wasted money.

Edited February 22, 2023 by regex

[Bej Kerman]

6 minutes ago, regex said:

Citation?

Delivery routes will be coming before or at the release of interstellar-scale parts. The devs have put emphasis on this one. If you have any concerns about resources and milk runs, assume that you must only send a ship of resources up to a station once. You're frustrated at the idea of kilometer-scale stations because you think you're going to be sending each ship up individually, at least telling from you saying "Citation?" about this feature the devs have put emphasis on before. You won't be sending each ship up individually.

[Vl3d]

1 minute ago, Bej Kerman said:

You won't be sending each ship up individually.

You might have to send each ship up once, and then have that run automated. That would mean that if you want to transfer 2x the resources, you would have to do 2 initial transport runs.

[regex]

Just now, Bej Kerman said:

You're frustrated at the idea of kilometer-scale stations because you think you're going to be sending each ship up individually, at least telling from you saying "Citation?" about this feature the devs have put emphasis on before. You won't be sending each ship up individually.

What the actual eff are you talking about? As usual you're having a problem actually reading my posts. No, the problem I have has literally jack all to do with actually flying a spaceship (what I'm here for), the problem I have is with the game potentially becoming Factorio with managing resource chains, production lines, optimizing bottlenecks, and other stuff like that.

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, regex said:

Hopefully I didn't imply I wanted that sort of gameplay either.

That's what this is replacing.

 

47 minutes ago, regex said:

Cool, let me build it and forget it. I'm here for the spaceships. If I wanted to play Factorio I'd play Factorio.

And that's what is going to happen, "place and forget" is pretty much the design philosophy stated by Devs.

But you're skipping the set-up phase.

As I said, optimizing the ratio between drills and furnaces is not something that has any place in KSP (it would be fun as a mod), but that doesn't mean no setups.

The parts that are worth keeping are those problems that are solved by a KSP mission.

Scanning for resources? An excuse for a mapping satellite in a polar orbit.

Deploying a drill? It's a dedicated lander that maybe requires some setup from a crew of engineers.

Moving the mined stuff to the colony? That's a rover/plane/suborbital reusable rocket you have to build, test and fly. And it's automatic with the supply route system after the test flight, place and forget.

Colonies then have just converters (factories, refineries and whatnot) that run on those resources that require to be brought there (with a KSP mission) on build in place with resources, and add to the colony EC consumption, nothing more complex.

No belts, pipes, or complex networks of arrays of furnaces and assemblers.

Then you find your new "money-like" resource (or resources) to build the stuff you want in the colony VAB.

Same for fuels.

Need more resources? Time-warp a month.

Want a higher resource cap? Add a storage module, it's a nice excuse to make colonies bigger.

Want faster production times? Again, plop more modules, that colony is growing.

Want more mined resources? That's just more KSP missions, maybe you have an old colony somewhere that already produces heaps of that resource, time for a mission between two random planets that aren't Kerbin to set up that cargo route. Ever did a Duna-Laythe round mission? I haven't.

 

As long as you don't have to wait literally years to gather the required resources with unoptimized setups, you won't be spending any time optimizing ratios using spreadsheets. 

 

Well, at least, I think the game should be balanced like that.

The Devs stated multiple times that milk runs are going to be automated and you won't need to babysit colonies after you set them up.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Master39

[Chilkoot]

I'm struggling to find a source here, but I'm sure I heard the KSP 2 resource collection/store/transport system will be very similar to the MKS WOLF paradigm that was introduced in KSP 1 under the USI mod suite.  Not sure if Bob is working with Intercept or not, but the similarities b/w current WOLF implementation and things Nate reveals about colonies just seem too similar to be a coincidence.

WOLF transport routes and resource management are quite a different beast than the previous MKS incarnations, and it took a lot of getting used to, honestly - with life support, at least, it feels unnecessarily complex.  It's absolutely better, but if you're an MKS old-schooler it will certainly take some getting used to.

[Bej Kerman]

4 minutes ago, regex said:

What the actual eff are you talking about? As usual you're having a problem actually reading my posts. No, the problem I have has literally jack all to do with actually flying a spaceship (what I'm here for), the problem I have is with the game potentially becoming Factorio with managing resource chains, production lines, optimizing bottlenecks, and other stuff like that.

Nevermind. You'll see what everyone is on about when it comes round.

[shdwlrd]

For production, I don't see it being any worse than MKS or Pathfinder. Mine, process, store/use/transfer.

The true automation will be with the logistics. 

[Pthigrivi]

39 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

That would mean that if you want to transfer 2x the resources, you would have to do 2 initial transport runs.

Or I would think you could just make copies. So long as the dV of the routes was about the same I don't see a reason you couldn't just add more instances. 
 

1 hour ago, Master39 said:

Raw ore => Copper => Copper wire => Green Circuits => Radars => Rocket Part

I quite agree with your last post for a general scope of how that should all play out. For the above I'd imagine its more like Raw Ore > Copper > Rocket Part or even Raw Ore > Metals > Rocket Part. If you had even 4-6 basic resources and just a handful of intermediates it would be plenty complex enough I think. 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[ArmchairGravy]

I definitely want a space exploration game with some colony stuff to give the late game structure. I do not want a colony management sim. I have enough of those already. I want the bones BARE on the management side of thing. Set it and forget it, minimal processing to get end products.

[Pthigrivi]

Just a small note too about colonies and production and workforces--I could be wrong but at the moment it doesn't look like classes or skills are part of KSP2. It may be that this would be added later but the absence comes to some relief to me. Its just much simpler to move and allocate crews when you don't have to fuss over all that.

[Chilkoot]

18 minutes ago, ArmchairGravy said:

I definitely want a space exploration game with some colony stuff to give the late game structure. I do not want a colony management sim. I have enough of those already. I want the bones BARE on the management side of thing. Set it and forget it, minimal processing to get end products.

Good way to put it.  Colonies to be meaningful and give a real feeling of achievement/advancement/conquest, but not onerous to manage.

E.g., if we need a colony on Dres to research metallic hydrogen and unlock the new engine tech - and also produce the fuel for it - that's a good use of a colony, but I don't want to be clicking on some admin building every game month to tell Kerbals what to do.  Once the colony is established, it should really be "set it and forget it", unless you want to expand or otherwise actively improve it via new tech, to increase production, add more efficient logistics connections, etc.

[Pipcard]

3 hours ago, Vl3d said:

From what I gather from interviews (Nate and EJ_SA for example), mature KSP2 gameplay will have a lot of elements similar to Factorio / Satisfactory / Dyson Sphere Program. I have to say Factorio is one of my favorite games so I really appreciate that.

I imagine that we will have to build our extraction / processing / transport vehicles and colonies and set up logistics networks using our creations. I have a hunch this delivery routes system will have its own management interface for automation. I think it's really cool because we'll be able to build "cheap" transports with basic materials we obtain and "expensive" exploration spaceships with more exotic elements. So basically we'll have to adapt to each planet and make the best designs we can (rovers, trucks, aeroplanes, helicopters, boats, rocket ferries etc.). There's a lot of reasons to design a new vehicle and constantly iterate. We'll always have something new to build or improve, even without contracts.

But what I found a little bit stale about automation games is the lack of interesting end goals. I think it's a really good idea for KSP2 to have exploration as its main purpose. Discovering the planets inside a new star system and their secrets, entering the atmosphere and landing for the first time, doing scientific experiments, exploring interesting anomalies.. I think that this is a good motivation to "grow the factory".

How do you feel about the construction and management simulation elements of the future KSP2? Any specific things you would want KSP2 to borrow from the other games I mentioned?

I tried out Dyson Sphere Program in 2021 for about 30 hours (might return to it one day). I don’t hate it, but I wish there was a game like it but with more emphasis on launch and orbital infrastructure, instead of conveyor belt spaghetti and producing energon cubes for research. Like launching components of O’Neill cylinders with mass drivers on the Moon or asteroids, or disassembling Mercury to make a Dyson swarm.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Pipcard

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Pipcard said:

Like launching components of O’Neill cylinders with lunar mass drivers, or disassembling Mercury to make a Dyson swarm.

You should take a look at Dyson Sphere Program late game if you haven't reached/seen it.