KSP2 as an Automation Game

[Pipcard]

1 minute ago, Master39 said:

You should take a look at Dyson Sphere Program late game if you haven't reached/seen it.

I said I would like a game like DSP but more focused on space infrastructure management and less like Factorio.

[Kerbart]

3 hours ago, Vl3d said:

From what I gather from interviews (Nate and EJ_SA for example), mature KSP2 gameplay will have a lot of elements similar to Factorio / Satisfactory / Dyson Sphere Program. I have to say Factorio is one of my favorite games so I really appreciate that.

Don't forget Astroneer. Aside from a "space theme" it has very little in common with KSP but it does have comparable "scale of operations." I can see how one can build a resource pipeline in KSP with a similar concept.

[Profugo Barbatus]

I'm fairly confident that the KSP2 vanilla production chain will be simple. Colonies will probably have rudimentary life support (Gardens/Farms, etc), rudimentary resource needs and production, and the chain will be fairly simple. Expect Ore -> Metals and Minerals -> Fuel for the relevant fuel chain in a bespoke building, with a handful of each.

Fancy production chains will almost assuredly lie in the world of modding, where someone will create a hardcore community resource pack to challenge factorio, with you sending scanning ships out to find Chromium ore to acquire chromium to go with your Vanadium and Iron and Carbon to create high strength steel alloys, to be used alongside your simple microcircuits, complex CPU's, mechanical bearings, electrical motors, aerospace aluminium, and Silica glass to create a MK1 lander can.

[stephensmat]

My guess is the really high end parts, and interstellar travel will require X amount of multiple resources; but resources won't be universal to all planets/asteroids. You want to see the next system, you need to harvest multiple planets in Kerbol for the right stuff.

In this case, the complication won't be setting up factories, but managing the 'HUB'. All resources flow into the Starbase.

It'd make for a good progression for the career mode. First step, get to these places, mid-game, build a Starbase/Shipyard; endgame, get to the next system; and start again. Isn't that what all the hard-scifi novels do with colonization stories?

[poopslayer78]

As an avid player of Factorio, Satisfactory, and Dyson Sphere Program, I think the best fit for KSP2 will be to keep supply chains simple.  A simple Mining (Ice) -> Refinement (Hydrogen) -> Consumption sounds good for most products.  2-step refinement or multi-input material refinement would be OK for late game stuff but it shouldn't go overboard.

I remember an official comment from the devs stating that KSP2 is still mostly about building rockets and colony/resource management would be kept simple.  Maybe it was a Shadow Zone interview... I couldn't find it.

In terms of logistics, automated delivery routes should not be affected by physics, even if performance eventually becomes a non-issue.  See also:

If you really want an interplanetary factory & logistics simulation Dyson Sphere Program might be for you.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

This is actually something that I’m a little concerned about.   If they oversimplify it’ll be a horrendous oversimplification like Spore and we won’t get much fun out of the colonies.  If they overdo it, it’ll be a painful grind.  Getting it right is going to take some work.

[Profugo Barbatus]

25 minutes ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

This is actually something that I’m a little concerned about.   If they oversimplify it’ll be a horrendous oversimplification like Spore and we won’t get much fun out of the colonies.  If they overdo it, it’ll be a painful grind.  Getting it right is going to take some work.

Remember the ultimate goal of colonies, from their design perspective. Colonies are an incentive to explore additional worlds, to find resources and fly additional, potentially complicated missions between them. The reward for pursuing colonies is new launch sites for your ships, provided you established a supply of materials. Those new ships then make it easier to explore distant worlds and colonize them to repeat the process.

They are not the end-state of the desired game loop, they are a step in service of "launch more rockets to new places". Their complexity will match that desired state. If colony management becomes more complex and involved than exploring the universe, it ends up detracting from that design goal, forcing players to invest more time into that aspect as opposed to the one that Intercept wants to promote.

As I said, I guarantee the modders will go full ham on exploiting the paper full potential of colonies, complicated production and all. But while colonies are a primary feature and goal for some of us, myself included, rockets and spaceflight are the primary goal of Intercept. Colonies and resource exploitation are in service of that.

[Vl3d]

6 hours ago, poopslayer78 said:

I remember an official comment from the devs stating that KSP2 is still mostly about building rockets and colony/resource management would be kept simple.

This is what you're looking for.

I agree with keeping the chain simple in stock, only [raw materials] -> [parts / buildings], without intermediates. Everything should serve exploration.

But I'm very curious about the logistics management interface. It's there any example that would be well suited?

[Profugo Barbatus]

5 hours ago, Vl3d said:

But I'm very curious about the logistics management interface. It's there any example that would be well suited?

Only thing that would come to mind is the USI Colonization WOLF stuff - In which you fly a route from a source biome to a destination biome, which consumes a certain amount of transport credit (Fuel/Pilot capacity) and provides a certain amount of payload, depending on how much cargo space you brought with you on the trip. Once you've established the route, its immutable, but you can change what's moved on the route freely. The interface was basically a list of capacity and current use tbh. I don't really have a good screenshot, but its nothing to write home about.

I imagine KSP2 will be similar, you will have an established route, and you can simply assign resources to that route, or remove them. WOLF tracks everything in just arbitrary 'Capacity' for performance reasons, but KSP2 looks like its standardized resources around Tons, so I imagine you'll have a tonnage of capacity, not an arbitrary value. They might also skip it entirely, and just presume that if you can move the 'Cargo' module, you're set. Maybe capacity will come from colony buildings and not just running extra flights manually.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Profugo Barbatus

[Pthigrivi]

7 hours ago, Vl3d said:

I agree with keeping the chain simple in stock, only [raw materials] -> [parts / buildings], without intermediates. Everything should serve exploration.

I think you're going to want some intermediates. Like its okay if there's a raw resource like Ice or Volatile Ore or whatever and from that you produce hydrogen, and from hydrogen you produce MH and that's what goes into your rockets. Same with refining Metals out of raw ores and then Metals are the base cost of the parts in the VAB. Even those intermediates should be there only if they contribute to how players design and fly vessels though, not just Factorio-esque endless resource chain management. Like when you refine the metals out of the ore its easier to ship because you're not hauling all that slag, so it poses both an engineering challenge and an orbital networking challenge to know where to put your refineries and where to send your end-products. 
 

7 hours ago, Vl3d said:

But I'm very curious about the logistics management interface. It's there any example that would be well suited?

So I think the actual planning for supply run schedules in theory factoring dV and using custom designed vessels is somewhat unique, so I don't have a good example for that. Lots of games have good tabs for economy management that would make sense for keeping colonies running well. Even though its a very different game Frostpunk also has a relatively small number of basic and refined materials and a really simple and clear UI for viewing production. For KSP you shouldn't need to worry about belting or filters or any of that, its just inputs, outputs, and storage capacity just like vessels have for EC and fuel. 



Incidentally frostpunk also has a really clean way of allocating crew to various tasks, which might be useful for refining your production for fuel factories or keeping big reactors running at full capacity: 

Edited February 23, 2023 by Pthigrivi