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Maneuver nodes are... really, really bad


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53 minutes ago, funkymove said:

I will NOT be playing it again, until it has, at least, reached parity with KSP1.

It's not just a remake, it's a completely different take. I don't expect it'll ever reach parity, given the flexibility of both the workspaces and the non-impulsive maneuver planner.

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2 hours ago, Kirarozu said:

Agreed. I don't know why they changed it to Arrows instead of the actual symbols. They are so tiny you can't really tell which one you're clicking on until you click on it. They should just use the KSP1 node.

The arrows are really useful it orientates so if you need to burn left you do the left arrow , before I'd burn a bit one way check altitude and if it wasnt getting lower I'd stop and reverse course and burn the other way! Wasting precious DV now it's simply an arrow which is a lot easier to understand especially if you don't have much time to make and burn the node. So many people just basically asking for ksp 1 stuff ,you've already got ksp1  go play it, some of us want to try new things!!

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The two things that bother me the most:

  • Not being able to skip orbits to find an encounter with another body on an orbit ahead of the orbit you are currently on. You can't even drag the maneuver node around the orbit and past your vessel like winding forwards a clock. As soon as your node passes your vessel you are back onto making a node in the same current orbit. This is unbelievably limiting and makes finding the most fuel efficient hohmann transfer impossible.
  • After the burn is complete when you return to map view you find the map display is now showing the trajectory you will be on if you execute the same burn again! Am I doing something wrong? No one else mentions this, really am I doing something wrong? Why do I want to see my trajectory that I will be on if I execute the burn with double the delta V? In KSP1 as the burn executed the current trajectory advanced until at the end of the burn it came to rest at the predicted trajectory line. In KSP2 I see the predicted trajectory advance forwards to the place I will be if I for some reason I chose to start the same burn all over again. What is this?
    • Oh wait, everybody is indeed mentioning this. What I see is because I switch out of map view, perform my burn and then come back again to the map view after the burn to see/ask how did the navigating go? If you stay in map view for the whole burn you see the old KSP1 behaviour to the end of the burn.
    • But goodness gracious, who wants to watch the map during a burn? I want to see rockets firing, it's a rocket game after all. I want to see kerbals panicking! I don't want to watch the map for the whole duration of a burn. Talk about boring. 

KSP2 is (going to be) awesome I am recommending it to everyone, just squash these really silly big bugs ASAP. Put in the working KSP1 code and then later on you can come back to tinker with cool progressive updates from there. 

Edited by Kaa253
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Totally agree. I was really bummed to see the Maneuver Node tool from the first game was missing. It was almost a requirement to fine tune a lot of the burns instead of fighting your mouse every step of the way.

Here's to hoping it makes a return as well as them fixing the complete mess that are currently Maneuver nodes.

Dont even get me started on the encounter icons. Obtuse and a pain in the ass. We have a long way to go....

 

 

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1 hour ago, TheRustedShackleford said:

Dont even get me started on the encounter icons. Obtuse and a pain in the ass

Yep, and not just for planetary or moon encounters. They’re terrible for orbital rendezvous planning and trying to dock with a target vessel. The fact that closest-approach numbers aren’t visible full-time is right up there with the decision to not show Ap/Pe numbers without a mouse-over.  This is a baffling and retrogressive UX design decision. 

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I find the map UX baffling even from a style perspective.

You have this retro, minimalistic style for the indicators similar to what you might see on an old NASA screen or original series Star Tree, and then you have the glowing and pulsating blue circles where you enter and leave another SOI, which are very futuristic like you might have in modern Star Trek. I am actually fine with both styles (as long as I get the information I want, which is currently not really the case) but next to each other it looks very odd.

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So, not only does the Maneuver Planner go totally useless if you flip between Map view and normal control view, it *also* seems to reset itself if you hit F2 to hide the GUI for a screenshot. When you return the GUI, the bar is full again.

More fun with nodes - last night I had planned a Jool transfer burn, saved my game and quit. This afternoon, when I first loaded the save, the Maneuver Planner widget correctly showed how much dV for the burn would be from the leftovers on my methalox lifter core, and the rest would be via my hyrdogen-propellant SWERV stage. However, after changing to Map view before I even started burning, the per-stage info disappeared, and after I started burning, the dV indicator bar didn't move at all. So I reloaded the same save and this time the Maneuver Planner did *NOT* show the per stage info at all. I even quit the game entirely and reloaded but it made no difference.

Anyway, after getting to Jool's SOI, suddenly I can't plan maneuvers at all. I can place the node and drag the axis handles around, but the predicted trajectory never changes. I had to revert to pointing pro/retrograde, normal/anti-normal, etc. then going to the Map during the burn to watch the orbit change. Even after multiple attempts to save and reload, maneuver nodes just ... stopped working. 

I haven't yet tried launching anything else to see if it's a Jool-specific issue or if the entire save is fubar. 

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55 minutes ago, LameLefty said:

Anyway, after getting to Jool's SOI, suddenly I can't plan maneuvers at all. I can place the node and drag the axis handles around, but the predicted trajectory never changes. I had to revert to pointing pro/retrograde, normal/anti-normal, etc. then going to the Map during the burn to watch the orbit change. Even after multiple attempts to save and reload, maneuver nodes just ... stopped working.

What does the dV indicator say for your craft? Does it say you have zero dV? If so that's why you can't make maneuver nodes, the game thinks you've got no dV to burn.

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15 minutes ago, Mutex said:

What does the dV indicator say for your craft? Does it say you have zero dV? If so that's why you can't make maneuver nodes, the game thinks you've got no dV to burn.

First off, incorrect. My dV indicator showed thousands of m/s available, along with the propellant necessary.

Second, even if true, that would be TERRIBLE UI design, Planning a maneuver should not depend on having the propellant necessary to effectuate that maneuver. In fact, you can already do that - create a maneuver with a large enough magnitude and the Map view will show something like NO FUEL at the the approximate point that you run out. 

Edited by LameLefty
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I suggested that because I've seen the dV indicator break and show zero when it shouldn't.

And it kinda has to work that way. Because maneuvers now take into account how long it takes to do a burn, it needs to know the thrust of each stage. Because each stage might burn out part way through the maneuver, it needs to know the dV of each stage, so you see the change in thrust when you stage reflected in the maneuver line. If you've no dV at all, then it'll show no change in your maneuver line.

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Just now, Bej Kerman said:

How else would it know how your vessel will move over the course of the burn?

That should not matter - the nodes are for planning purposes, period. 

Suppose I had a transport in orbit near a propellant depot and wanted to go somewhere else. My vessel knows its own velocity (direction + speed). If I want to move that vessel from one trajectory to another, the amount of delta-V is ALL that matters. The whole "course of the burn" over-complicates things greatly (*) for a simple transfer orbit, especially for simply planning and "spit-balling" (e.g., "Can I even do this at all?" type questions). 

And again, this is irrelevant anyway, because my vessel had propellant and showed dV in the staging list. 

(*) I did the math BY HAND with discrete time steps, approximating the solution to the equations of motion by integrating the changes of velocity with the changes of mass and velocity on paper with an HP calculator in college almost 35 years ago. So yeah, I know what I'm talking about here.

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22 minutes ago, LameLefty said:

the nodes are for planning purposes

Really, tell me. What use is a planned orbit if you don't have the propellant to achieve it.

29 minutes ago, LameLefty said:

The whole "course of the burn" over-complicates things greatly (*) for a simple transfer orbit, especially for simply planning and "spit-balling" (e.g., "Can I even do this at all?" type questions). 

For high TWRs, maybe, but KSP 2 isn't forcing you to use high TWRs like KSP 1. You have to consider that "course of the burn" is necessary for low TWR vessels, which I doubt people will be hesitant to use with the improved maneuver nodes and thrust in warp.

22 minutes ago, LameLefty said:

(*) I did the math BY HAND with discrete time steps, approximating the solution to the equations of motion by integrating the changes of velocity with the changes of mass and velocity on paper with an HP calculator in college almost 35 years ago. So yeah, I know what I'm talking about here.

So you don't need me to tell you that a hydrogen tanker pushed by a massive ion tug would depend on the maneuver prediction knowing its thrust and propellant mass in order to plan its transfer. You really shouldn't need me to tell you that the TWR of a torch drive driven ship (when we get those) cannot use the impulse nodes of KSP 1 for trip planning.

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19 hours ago, Kaa253 said:

You can't even drag the maneuver node around the orbit and past your vessel like winding forwards a clock.

To be fair, the maneuver nodes in KSP1 doesn't do this, either.

19 hours ago, Kaa253 said:

After the burn is complete when you return to map view you find the map display is now showing the trajectory you will be on if you execute the same burn again!

I've been having this as well, it's pretty annoying. Hopefully it gets fixed next patch.

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Everything on this thread is so true. I tried getting to Duna, but I gave up after countless glitches and in the end, the maneuver tool didn't even work anymore.  Surprised they even released a game in this state. 

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On 2/25/2023 at 8:18 AM, 机械主教71号 said:

Can't agree more. It's totally a disaster.

What's more, the node can't automatically pick the AP/PE, AD/DN, etc. 

We want the KSP1 type maneuver node.

I wouldn’t call it a disaster yet: “very rough first draft” would be more accurate.  Things can only get better.

Add verbal countdowns to burn start and stop, time of burn, amount of fuel burnt, and percentage of fuel remaining to be burnt, and the new burn timer would be phenomenal.

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Sorry if that has been mentioned, but what really irks me is that there is no function (or I didn't find the function) to skip an orbit, like in KSP1. I'm left doing suboptimal manoeuvers or wasting my time going around the planet while waiting to find a good opportunity.

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1 hour ago, Arizal said:

Sorry if that has been mentioned, but what really irks me is that there is no function (or I didn't find the function) to skip an orbit, like in KSP1. I'm left doing suboptimal manoeuvers or wasting my time going around the planet while waiting to find a good opportunity.

There is a mod, Maneuver Node Controller, that lets you skip orbits.

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On 3/3/2023 at 1:52 AM, Bej Kerman said:

Really, tell me. What use is a planned orbit if you don't have the propellant to achieve it.

As a 'planning' tool.

Checking if you can get an Intercept and getting an estimate of Dv requirements in advance.

It's good it tells you that you don't have enough  fuel though.

Perhaps a 'planning mode' that isn’t related to a craft would be helpful.

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18 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

There is a mod, Maneuver Node Controller, that lets you skip orbits.

Thanks a bunch. I managed to install the mod loader (I stupidly thought there would be a steam workshop) and then the mod itself, and so far it seems to work like wonder. I guess there still are some places KSP2 is lacking compared to KSP1, but I think I'll resume my try to munland. It seems like the optimal burn would have been 30 orbits later, so I'm glad I posted here. All those precious delta V I would have lost...

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