Please revert all vab controls back to ksp1

[Rodger]

Being so reliant on MMB means you can't play on most laptops without an external mouse. This was no issue in KSP1, you could easily play on laptops without control issues. The main change I'd like to see is set scroll wheel scrolling to vertical camera panning, with shift-scrolling for zoom. Even with a mouse, I'd prefer this control scheme.

This wouldn't remove MMB usage entirely though, so maybe allow that to be rebound to a modifier key + left or right click for other uses, like focusing a part.

It would also free up MMB drag for a SPH style free pan, which is a more niche use, so not required for play thus still allowing laptop use (maybe it could also be bound to modifier + arrow key), but would be a nice addition. The lack of SPH camera controls in KSP2 is just a straight downgrade/missing feature.

[The Aziz]

1 hour ago, Rodger said:

The main change I'd like to see is set scroll wheel scrolling to vertical camera panning,

What if I build something long and horizontal?

Scroll for zoom is the most logical thing in the world, everywhere you look it works like that. KSP was one of the few to did it differently, does not mean they did it right.

Keyboard hotkeys for camera controls would be welcome, but don't change something that made sense for decades.

And there's nothing wrong with the lack of very weird and unintuitive sph control scheme when you can simply click to focus on the part you want to work with. Old sph camera never was where I wanted it to be. KSP2 is a blessing in that regard.

Edited March 19, 2023 by The Aziz
Dislearning american tongue

[Rodger]

Keyboard controls would probably be good enough, as long as reliance on MMB dragging for panning is gone. The 'horizontal' VAB mode camera panning is especially weird atm, you pan the mouse up and down to move the camera sideways lol

The shift-scroll combination for 'fast zoom' is also pretty weird, doesn't seem different enough to the normal scroll zoom to justify it. It could be scrapped to make room for a more useful control, like holding shift for a SPH pan or something.

[Nuggzy]

I vote for KSP1 controls, this new VAB sucks imho. The movement tool is a disaster. You have to move you mouse to the right position to be able to somehow click the part of it you want only to have it click a part on the ship 100 yards behind the ship you are working on while trying to see that you are moving the part to the right spot because you are looking at it at some weird angle just to use the clusterF of a tool. It's ridiculously over complicated. The only part of the new VAB that is nice is the blueprint mode but that needs to drop the stupid camera glare and shadows. At first, I thought it was cool to be able to have multiple ships in there but then I tried to build something that would go interstellar and realized the clicking the next ship catastrophe of the part manipulator, which btw, needs absolute and local controls like KSP1.

[The Aziz]

37 minutes ago, Nuggzy said:

You have to move you mouse to the right position to be able to somehow click the part of it you want only to have it click a part on the ship 100 yards behind the ship you are working on while trying to see that you are moving the part to the right spot because you are looking at it at some weird angle just to use the clusterF of a tool.

Please explain I have no idea what you wanted to say here mainly because of no commas but also didn't quite understand the problem although I agree the tool design needs some work.

39 minutes ago, Nuggzy said:

needs absolute and local controls like KSP1.

It has those if you bothered to look.

[WhoopsThatExploded]

Generally I think the new building system is a win but the camera controls in the vab need some work. I don't have a middle mouse button (trackball user) and was hoping to remap scroll up and down the rocket to page up/page down. But that doesn't seem to be remappable. 

[Sea_Kerman]

4 hours ago, The Aziz said:

It has those if you bothered to look.

It doesn’t, actually. The absolute mode is still local, it just aligns the rotation widget to absolute axes but the actual rotation and translation snaps are still local.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Sea_Kerman

[The Aziz]

Oh you meant that stupid snapping to virtual invisible grid? That was the most annoying thing in the editor. Trying nice vertical alignment and your radial decoupler suddenly sits in the air because the snap also decided to move outwards from the rest of the assembly. Good it's not there anymore.

[Bej Kerman]

On 2/26/2023 at 9:52 AM, The Aziz said:

Nah.

Forget the KSP1, get used to it. I did, and it's only two days. Remember that it not only has to work with both horizontal and vertical assemblies, but also multiples of them in the same scene. Scroll for zoom is logical, so is camera focus. Anchor==root, except you don't have to click two parts for no reason, and (but admittedly coming out lf the tool is glitchy). Yes the move/rotate gizmo should be bigger. Anything else? No, don't think so, building is easy.

Preach!

This is way less irritating than having to manually center the camera's pivot point on whatever like I had to in KSP 1's SPH. "The horizontal pan on the VAB camera is non-existent" is a non-issue since you've always got a part of your plane to focus on.

[Raptor9]

I don't think it comes down to an all or nothing choice between the current KSP2 implementation and the KSP1 implementation. It's not a "this or that" choice, it's a feedback thread to try to find solutions that work for as many players as possible. It would be a much greater experience in the long run to take what was proven to work in KSP1 and merge it with the advancements made within KSP2; especially if they were coupled with some potential user-configurable settings.

As it stands, the current KSP2 view controls are way too coarse and make it quite cumbersome and difficult to position the camera into very specific orientations and locations to properly judge precise part placement and rotation on a craft. If a player is content with simply snapping parts together, then the camera controls in their current form are sufficient. However, if a player is into building craft with very precise part placements for specific designs or replicas, the current camera controls in KSP2 are too cumbersome and coarse to provide the level of precision and orientation that is needed for such gameplay.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Raptor9

[Breuss]

I agree that the new control in the vertical assembly shop is not as convenient as it was in KSP 1. I vote FOR the return of the old control!

[The Aziz]

21 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

As it stands, the current KSP2 view controls are way too coarse and make it quite cumbersome and difficult to position the camera into very specific orientations and locations to properly judge precise part placement and rotation on a craft.

An example? Because that's what the blueprint mode is for, you can pan and everything.

As for a compromise between the two... You can see the title of this thread. People are so used to old scheme that they're afraid of any changes.

[DaveLChgo]

5 hours ago, The Aziz said:

People are so used to old scheme that they're afraid of any changes.

Hardly afraid.    But Im willing to suggest a compromise.   How about shift + scroll   or  alt + scroll  or  ctl + scroll   to be used for panning instead of zoom.   I would be happy with that.  The current config of  HOLDING the MMB while Dragging the mouse in order to pan sucks.      Example the current config.   While only keeping your mouse on the mouse pad.... it cannot go beyond the mouse pad borders.   Its constantly lifting and repositioning the mouse to the opposite edge.    

And yes using the MMB to center focus on a part does help a bit but it is not a replacement for scrolling.

[Klapaucius]

I don't have a problem with the new controls, but that may be because I have been learning Blender and FreeCad, so am having to constantly switch and I just go with it.

Having said that, FreeCad can be set up with its default controls, or it can mimic Blender or several other 3D programs. I can't imagine it would be hard to do something similar in KSP2, and make those settings customizeable.

[dr.phees]

23 hours ago, The Aziz said:

People are so used to old scheme that they're afraid of any changes.

Not afraid, but a new scheme has to make sense. Changing a working and over many years refined scheme just for the sake of being new is not a good argument.

 

A new control scheme should wow me with things that suddenly work much better. (Like the WASD keys are much better than the arrow keys that were used before). Currently the KSP 2 control scheme does not give me that feeling. I don't think they have found something better, yet. Why change then? A good control scheme 'clicks' and makes you wonder why it has not been used before.

Edited March 20, 2023 by dr.phees

[Bej Kerman]

Just now, dr.phees said:

Not afraid, but a new scheme has to make sense. Changing a working and over many years refined scheme just for the sake of being new is not a good argument.

The new scheme does make sense and is less hassle than trying to manually align the camera's pivot with everything. It's hardly "for the sake of being new" if it makes dealing with several assemblies in one space much easier. Of course, one can apply the "for the sake of being new" to just about anything they don't want to see changed, even if the changes make things better.

[RedneckGaijin]

I find the lack of ability to scroll up and down the rocket makes it impossible for me to build interplanetary-scale rockets AT ALL. I'm struggling to build stuff for Minmus and Mun because I can't see what I'm doing at the bottom of the rocket. Between this and the flight UI being all but illegible, I'm getting tired of the Not Invented Here attitude the KSP2 developers have taken with the KSP1 interface.

[dr.phees]

14 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Of course, one can apply the "for the sake of being new" to just about anything they don't want to see changed, even if the changes make things better.

That is not what I said, and you know it (or didn't read the post).

We are talking about the control scheme for building a craft/assembly. The new control scheme does not have anything to do with dealing with multiple assemblies.

And, sorry to say that, the new scheme does not produce that "this is how it has to be done" moment that a good new scheme should do.

Relying on a 3rd mouse button is just bad design anyway. All the laptop users are out. (Except when you use an external mouse.)

Edited March 21, 2023 by dr.phees

[Bej Kerman]

5 hours ago, dr.phees said:

We are talking about the control scheme for building a craft/assembly. The new control scheme does not have anything to do with dealing with multiple assemblies.

Yes it does. There is no way it has nothing to do with multiple assemblies. KSP 1's SPH scheme would be nothing short of tedious, trying to navigate between two builds.

5 hours ago, dr.phees said:

Relying on a 3rd mouse button is just bad design anyway.

No it isn't. The focus button couldn't go anywhere else. Do you suggest having to pan manually between two builds?

Again, the benefits are being ignored for the same of an outdated control scheme that has no benefit over KSP 2's scheme. You don't need KSP 1's camera panning. If there's no part where you want the camera to pivot, there's no possible reason for your camera to be there. MMB control only has benefits, especially when working around multiple assemblies where in KSP 1 you'd tediously be panning everywhere.

5 hours ago, dr.phees said:

All the laptop users are out. (Except when you use an external mouse.)

And you're out of half the games ever made - just use a mouse because touchpads are not designed for gaming.

[Periple]

18 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

No it isn't. The focus button couldn't go anywhere else. Do you suggest having to pan manually between two builds?

They'll have to find an alternative at the latest when they start thinking of Mac builds. Mac mice don't have middle buttons. 

A modifier key would do the trick.

[Klapaucius]

15 hours ago, RedneckGaijin said:

I find the lack of ability to scroll up and down the rocket makes it impossible for me to build interplanetary-scale rockets AT ALL. I'm struggling to build stuff for Minmus and Mun because I can't see what I'm doing at the bottom of the rocket. Between this and the flight UI being all but illegible, I'm getting tired of the Not Invented Here attitude the KSP2 developers have taken with the KSP1 interface.

Do you know you can click on any part with the middle mouse button and it will focus on that?  I did not know this until I saw Scott Manley do it. It works very well.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Klapaucius

[RedneckGaijin]

5 hours ago, Klapaucius said:

Do you know you can click on any part with the middle mouse button and it will focus on that?  I did not know this until I saw Scott Manley do it. It works very well.

No, I didn't. I still don't. Do you mean the mouse wheel?

[weeee]

i can say that if i was not using WASD controls mod for ksp 2 i would already have stopped playing because of the new controls, in my case is because im using a cheap mouse and the middle mouse click is not reliable, and if i have this problem i guess im not the only one, but looking at this thread there examples of places that the middle mouse is not pratical/available(macs/notebooks).

I dont think they need to redo the system, just an option to switch from the middle click to any other key, like you can do the for almost all other controls.

[Bej Kerman]

5 minutes ago, RedneckGaijin said:

5 hours ago, Klapaucius said:

Do you know you can click on any part with the middle mouse button and it will focus on that?  I did not know this until I saw Scott Manley do it. It works very well.

No, I didn't. I still don't. Do you mean the mouse wheel?

MMB is the mouse wheel, yes. If you aren't using a critical feature of the new camera controls, then it's easy to see why you dislike them.

[cocoscacao]

My only nag so far is that rotation/moving parts should be separated and binded to hotkeys 2 and 3, like in original...

Also shift click on any part to select the whole assembly, instead of hunting for the root element. 

Maybe Im missing something...