Will we get to other stars?

[lyndonguitar]

Yes, with a mile long spacecraft weighing thousands of tons carrying god know how much people/suppliers/unobtainium at 1.5G! Imagine what those engines can do when pulling a lighter ship.

As I said, It doesn't need to be exactly like Avatar.. I'm just making it as a basis for the tech as its plausible

"for example, the antimatter engine could take days or months to reach a speed faster than any normal rocket could achieve in the game, while the normal rockets in the game can take a few seconds to achieve the speed. making the antimatter inefficient for interplanetary distance burns and trajectories"

In other words, you would need a "big runway" for it to work, that being the vast interstellar space, much like a jet in real life needs a long runway to accellerate and decellerate. If you are planning a trip from Earth to Mars using the antimatter engines, the traditional rockets would outrace them on the way to Mars, but not on the way to Alpha Centauri.

You can have both engines, so you can go planet to planet and then star to star if you wanted to

Edited May 8, 2013 by lyndonguitar

[Peenvogel]

Again, It's not real life again. You wouldn't need to make it thousands of stars to justify the real life's abundance of stars, even 4X space games don't have that many stars

The best way would be, as you said, One badass Kerbol System, and then, additional, optional, 5-10 random generated stars around it. that's it, when you are done exploring those 10 stars, you can restart the game again and expect a new set of 10 stars around kerbol, making the games' replayability last forever

Ok, we agree on the one badass solar system. And as much as I would like to travel beyond that, I don't think it could be done properly. Just as you suggested, these stars would be randomly generated (even if it were just a different 10 all the time)... that sounds the same as adding inferiority to a superior base game... what's the point of that other than making the game sound way better than it is?

Edited May 8, 2013 by Peenvogel

[SuestraGaming]

I really hope we can go to other star systems one day. I really like the idea and it adds some nice difficulty

[simonh]

"for example, the antimatter engine could take days or months to reach a speed faster than any normal rocket could achieve in the game, while the normal rockets in the game can take a few seconds to achieve the speed. making the antimatter inefficient for interplanetary distance burns and trajectories"

In other words, you would need a "big runway" for it to work...

That's an interesting idea, but if this is the only way to travel to other star systems, you'll want to be able to transport a lot of material with it - enough to explore the whole system, and perhaps other systems beyond. It will need to be able to transport accommodation modules, landers, probes, bases, rovers and resource collection equipment. It needs to be able to carry all that stuff within a reasonable time frame.

Which means that if you use this propulsion technology with a much smaller payload, it will transport it proportionally faster. If it can do e.g. 0.1G with a heavy payload, it can do 1G with a tenth of that, or 2G with a twentieth. Even just 0.5G over an extended period adds up to a heck of a delta-Vee.

I think you're going to have a hell of a time trying to cook the numbers to avoid this. If it can carry heavy payloads long distances in a reasonable time, it will also be able to carry smaller payloads over a shorter distance a lot faster.

Simon Hibbs

[lazarus1024]

Hey !!!! The Busard ramjet is NOT a fantasy warp drive !

At last, I dont think so

Well, it isn't a warp drive, and it is potentially feasible.

Not terribly so. I am not 100% sure where the number is derived from (though I know WHY there is a limit), but supposedly the fastest a bussard ramjet can hit is .119c. Which is still pretty darned fast, but supposedly that is the upper limit of drag vs. thrust. I assume that is using a stupendously high output powersupply.

CNO fusion is the current thought on how to achieve it as H+H fusion is just simply not feasible.

You are also talking probably needing a power plant on the order of several MW at least, if not a couple of hundred MW (good luck disipating the thermal energy from that, though you could use that for some additional black body thrust).

Any conceivable design you could possibly construct in KSP is probably going to have a fraction of the thrust of the current ion engine, though "unlimited" fuel. Probably a couple of days just to tack on a few m/sec of dV.

I think if we are going to have interstellar drives, they are either going to have to be jump/space folding drives or space warp drives. That or for sub-luminal drives, maybe a fusion plasma drive (and probably limited to a few tenths of a % C). Anything else is pretty much beyond the realm of likihood in the game unless we are going to get ships in the hundreds of meter range or more.

[Tom K.]

http://www.academia.edu/1102968/Interstellar_Spaceflight_Using_Nuclear_Propulsion_And_Advanced_Techniques

[Sathurn]

After reading the article on warp drive many post up, I find warp drive to be plausible enough to be included in the game at some distant point.

I do not believe warp drive would "break the game" because, to this math novice, it could be self limiting.

Warp drive would compress the space in front of the craft, such that a craft traveling at .1LS (light speed) could in space compress at a ratio of 2 to 1, effectively travel at a speed of .2LS. Increase the compression of space to 10 to 1, and the craft traveling at a "relative" velocity of .1 now travels at the effective velocity of 1LS. Since moons, planets and stars compress space already I would find it plausible that warp drive would not work as well (or at all) near large objects therefore not usable in system, thus not breaking the game.

[MRab2]

It seems to me the naysayers are really worrying about nothing.

FTL breaks the game? Only if it’s done badly, if it’s done well then that’s another thing.

Let’s assume for the moment that FTL comes in after launch and that at launch Kerbol is part of a trinery star system – so you’ve got three full solar systems to explore all at sub-light speeds.

Now, let’s assume the FTL propulsion system is big, heavy, expensive, needs lots of power and doesn’t work within a gravity well. You’re talking something that’ll have to be built in orbit may weigh hundreds of tonnes (before you add anything that supports a crew or exploration hardware), will need a power supply in the high Mw range (itself weighing hundreds of tonnes – solar panels ain’t going to cut it) and has to be accelerated up to >4000m/s (and importantly accelerated back down again – 8k dV minimum in the tanks before it breaks orbit). It’s probably going to need a Daedulus style drive, which will weight hundreds more tonnes. You may ALSO need a chemical rocket system as well to function as an RCS system as well as fuel reserves for the probes you’ll be taking with you.

Then add on habitation modules – including an artificial gravity ring, exploration equipment and supplies (I’m assuming there’ll be consumables in the future – so maybe hydroponics as well) and you could end up with something weighing in at over 1500-2000 tonnes – bigger than anything that’s in-game just now that I know of (my biggest ship in orbit “The Lagfest†is around 250 tonnes fully kitted) and HUGELY expensive - you'll need to have a mature space program with efficient infrastructure to tackle this puppy.

Anyone who points out the Daedulus style propulsion system will be OP can pick up the bill for the hundreds of micro-nukes it’ll need as fuel.

Now, why would anyone want to keep this most daunting design challenge that culminates in the most in-depth exploration mission OUT of the game? Because the physics hasn't been proven? Really?

[simonh]

http://www.academia.edu/1102968/Interstellar_Spaceflight_Using_Nuclear_Propulsion_And_Advanced_Techniques

Hmm. In the introduction they say a propulsion system with an Isp of 30,000s and above would be essential, then they select gas Core as their preferred propulsion system. I don't think they ever say what the theoretical Isp of a gas core reactor would be. Turns out optimisticaly it's about 3,000s. Ten times too low by their own numbers. They're also right about the problems carrying or obtaining enough Hydrogen reaction mass. Scooping it is one option, but it's fraught with problems. You'd need to generate the scoop field, and collecting the hydrogen will slow you down so you'd cut their suggested cruise rates down to at least half, probably a lot less. Then of course if it does work we've now got a hyper-rocket that breaks the in-system game, so it's back to square one again.

Simon Hibbs

[simonh]

....Let’s assume for the moment that FTL comes in after launch and that at launch Kerbol is part of a trinery star system – so you’ve got three full solar systems to explore all at sub-light speeds.....

Er, you do know what FTL stands for, right?

Simon Hibbs

[MRab2]

Er, you do know what FTL stands for, right?

Simon Hibbs

Yes. By *launch* I was referring to the launch of the game. Does that help?

[lyndonguitar]

Yes. By *launch* I was referring to the launch of the game. Does that help?

It doesn't have to be available at start, we are all used to all the engines unlocked at the start of the game, obviously at release, parts will not have to be unlocked at game start, especially career mode. It can be at the end of a very long, and expensive tech tree, will probably get unlocked just as when you are nearly done with kerbol system.

The reason we have a unlocked all parts sandbox mode is for testing purposes only

[MRab2]

It doesn't have to be available at start, we are all used to all the engines unlocked at the start of the game, obviously at release, parts will not have to be unlocked at game start, especially career mode. It can be at the end of a very long, and expensive tech tree

The reason we have a unlocked all parts sandbox mode is for testing purposes only

I didn't saying anything *had* to be done. I was offering a scenario where the game would have traveling to other solar systems without an FTL drive.

I personally think it SHOULD have other systems at the launch date. A universe with ONE solar system seems a bit of a missed opportunity imho. If other solar systems existed then you've got a mechanic for deep space observation i.e. you don't get to see what's round the other stars you have to build orbital telescopes, do spectral analysis to determine planet atmospheres etc etc.

[Promii]

I think it would be neat if Kerbol had a small red dwarf companion ala Proxima Centauri (albeit closer in than Proxima is to Alpha/Beta). That could justify another star being close enough to reach conventionally and it could have its own mini planetary system. Make it a few times further out than the furthest planet and give it a Kerbin/Laythe like world close in and it would be a pretty cool place to set up a base.

[Tom K.]

What if in order to start constructing a warp-drive you would need various extremely rare recources which you need to dig on different moons and planets?

You would be forced to explore the solar-system first before doing any interplanetary stuff.

Also, you would need quiet alot of it so multiple mining-camps would be needed.

Warp-drives should be something special, even in sandbox-mode you wouldn't be able to obtain a warp-drive instantly you would need to archieve it!

I'm thinking of scooping up atmosphere from Jool which can be dangerous.

Getting HEAVY materials from Tylo. (strong-gravity)

Getting stuff from Eve's oceans...

Off course, billions of years back the Kerbol's solar-system was one big Nebula so that means that every planet should have atleast a tiny tiny bit of those resources though on one planet a resource should be more common then on the other ones.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Tom K.

[MRab2]

I'm thinking of scooping up atmosphere from Jool which can be dangerous.

Getting HEAVY materials from Tylo. (strong-gravity)

Getting stuff from Eve's oceans...

You maniac! But in essence I agree with everything you said.

[MRab2]

Off course, billions of years back the Kerbol's solar-system was one big Nebula so that means that every planet should have atleast a tiny tiny bit of those resources though on one planet a resource should be more common then on the other ones.

Yes and no. This is true if we're talking about elements, but if we're talking about compounds then we're talking a completely different can of worms.

[Tom K.]

You maniac! But in essence I agree with everything you said.

I've been thinking a bit more and thought about having a MAX-amount of warp-drives you can get from mining the finite amount of resources in a solar-system.

So to begin with mining/refining the rare heavy resources should very difficult.

Which means that after alot of working and time you should have ONE warp-drive this would mean that players who want to explore interstellar-space would make one "Mothership" which has the warp-drive and dock multiple smaller ships to it to perform explorations in the other solar-systems.

The recources that you need to make warp-drives would be so rare that the Kerbol-system would only have enough resources for THREE warp-drives, other solar-system which would be randomly generated I think would also have these resources but in varrying amounts, ranging from enough resources to make 2 or even 8 of these engines.

This shouldn't mean that bigger solar-system always contain more of these resoruces then smaller solar-systems, so a solar-system with 3 planets could contain more resources for warp-drives then a solar-system with 12 planets...

This would prevent players from ignoring smaller solar-systems prior to the bigger ones...

Edited May 8, 2013 by Tom K.

[Jeb KerBoom]

Short answer: No, not for a long time.

Long answer: Too much processor would be used, not to mention the absolutely insane interstellar travel time.

[Tom K.]

Short answer: No, not for a long time.

Long answer: Too much processor would be used, not to mention the absolutely insane interstellar travel time.

They shouldn't have to process ALL solar-systems the whole time, it should only process the current solar-system you're playing in.

Though this could cause problems when you're mining in one solar-system but play in another.

The time to travel from one solar-system to another could be solved by having a higher time-warp option...

[lazarus1024]

Short answer: No, not for a long time.

Long answer: Too much processor would be used, not to mention the absolutely insane interstellar travel time.

Actually it looks like SQUAD has partially solved that. Resources outside of the planet you are in orbit around (or maybe it is everything within the SOI or something?) are not actually loaded in to memory in the next update.

So within reason, you could add as many planets as you wanted, and it wouldn't greatly increase processor or memory footprint signficantly.

Or at least that is what it sounds like.

[Morokth]

If you were in a Trinary star system you wouldn't necessarily need FTL capability to see what the other two star systems had (if they had anything). Granted, conventional, sub-light speeds would still make any such journeys long term missions just to get from Kerbol A's influence to get to Kerbol B or C, but I think my statement still stands

[Elemental]

I see this topic go around often and wanted to finally toss my two cents on the mountain of pennies burying this poor defenceless horse.

Honestly, I love the realism but have no qualms about pairing it with some silly and space magic as well.

It could be a tech line in the sand (Age of empires / empire earth style?) where you can keep using the low level tech or.. play with the sci fi.

It would give progression to the game.

As an FTL method, I think just a hyperspace jump drive would be best. It can be balanced by the aforementioned tech line in the sand. Also it could require low gravity levels (IE: outside a star's SOI) because... magnets.

That would keep it from being a quick hop to Duna tool (though again, I have no issue with that, if I want to play sci fi mode).

All that being said.... using more conventional methods of getting to the other star would not make me rage quit, and I would even accept arriving at the new star is the end objective of the game (CIV ending anyone?)

Maybe an expansion "Kerbal Trek"... where they bring in all sorts of over the top theoretical toys to play with. I'd pay for that.

[Spatzimaus]

It's a tough question. The problem is that in sandbox mode, FTL would trivialize everything else; if you've got an engine capable of carrying you several parsecs in an instant, then what's the challenge in flying to Duna? Right now all we have is the sandbox, so until they add career mode AND make it the primary style of gameplay, there just isn't much room for things like FTL, any more than we'd get inertialess drives or mass drivers.

But imagine a career mode built around this sort of thing. You start off in the Kerbol system, with access to only low-tech parts (1.25m fuel tanks and engines, and small capsules), and each ship's total budget and part count are limited to some fixed totals. Every time you do something notable (land on a moon for the first time, dock in orbit, return resources to Kerbin, make an SSTO spaceplane), your per-ship budget increases, and new parts unlock. Do enough and you gain access to bigger and more modern capsules, 2.5m or 3.75m parts, ion engines, LV-Ns, and so on, which make it possible to accomplish more goals that were previously impossible. In that sort of environment, adding an FTL drive at the top tier could be seen as an endgame for the career mode, since it'd effectively put you in a pseudo-sandbox; ideally, completing your first FTL flight would generate a randomly set star system, with no two players' neighboring systems identical, giving you a personalized playground to try out fun designs in.

[Bekiekutmoar]

I think Kerbals shouldn't be capable of developing FTL themselves, but that doesn't mean they can't 'borrow' the technology ... Possible solution; put alien FTL-technology somewhere in a hard-to-access area in the Kerbol System, like a deep canyon on Tylo. This technology can be a crashed and abandoned alien vessel, or some kind of engine that has somehow 'fallen off'. If the Kerbals want to acquire FTL, they should land on (in this case) Tylo with a ship capable of transferring a heavy piece of technology all the way back to Kerbin.

If the precious cargo lands on Kerbin undamaged, new FTL-parts will become available in the VAB and SPH. Due to the size and mass of a functioning FTL-engine, construction would probably occur in orbit. The FTL-engine should be prone to catastrophic failure when activated in areas where gravity of celestial objects are a significant factor, and the ship should first be directed away from the Kerbal System (a Jool gravity assist results in a maximum distance of around 500 million km from Kerbol, should be enough).