Duna Permanent Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge

[Patupi]

First bootprint on Duna! Scott Kerman muffed his lines ("Thanks Jeb! *grumble grumble*") but had a party afterwards so isn't too broken up about it. 8 Kerbals on Duna on Day 350

Project Archimedes

[Donziboy2]

My first simulated landed came down a little to hard..... Back to the drawing board.

I did come up with what may be my emergency ascent vehicle......

Jeb, Bill, Bob and dont remember the other guy lol.

[TheBobWiley]

Quick question, about how much delta v is needed to take off from duna and achieve orbit at about 100km? My DDAV has over 1600 m/s, but all it has to do is go to duna orbit and back to duna, is that overkill? Im trying reduce weight as it it pushing the limits of my lifter right now :\

[Patupi]

1600 seems minimum to me. I'd go with 2000 to be sure, but 1600 will likely make it, depending on your ascent profile. Note this is just ground to orbit. Allow a few hundred dV to de-orbit afterwards (I'm assuming it has plenty of chutes)

BTW. Like the emergency ascent vehicle. Never thought of using seats for that! Well, if it's short term habitation should be fine Just be sure to have some habitat up there they can get to in a hurry in orbit! Gotta have somewhere for Jeb to store his Twinkies.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Patupi

[SpaceK531]

stupid question, what plugin gives the informational panels in the above screenshots?

[kookoo_gr]

stupid question, what plugin gives the informational panels in the above screenshots?

Mechjeb 2.0

Two extra questions

1. At which degree does a lifter is considered reusable? i have made a lifter which is at the moment 75% reusable, does it comply with the rule of 1.5 days*payload capacity?

2. Can i use an SSTO in order to deliver small portions of outpost payloads? if yes does it have to comply with rule no 2?

[Donziboy2]

1. If 50% or more of your lifter is safely landed on Kerbin (does not burn in atmo) then you are good.

2. Im not sure....

On a side note I landed my base on Duna at 14ms broke 2 of the landing legs and damaged 2 wheels but nothing a wrench could not fix

Few more tweaks and I can move on to logistics..... yay....

In memory of the 4 simulated deaths from yesterday.

[Patupi]

Those Kerbals are having far too much fun for a simulated funeral!

Oh and as far as SSTO delivery goes Kookoo_gr, I think not. The initial rules state that it all has to be on one launcher. I think the intention is to limit it on time. IE it takes so long to build and launch payloads. If even a small portion of your payloads goes outside of the launch schedule it would seem unfair. At least that's how I see it

Oh, and just to clarify, the 50% recyclable rule, you don't have to actually land the recyclable elements every time. With the 2.3km physics limit boosters that separate disappear in atmosphere below 25km alt. What I did was test a launcher, switch to the boosters after they separated and be sure that they did land safely and intact. Once I knew it worked then I launched normally. The 'disappeared' boosters are considered recycled.

[Death Engineering]

2. Can i use an SSTO in order to deliver small portions of outpost payloads? if yes does it have to comply with rule no 2?

Perhaps the OP can confirm, but my understanding is that anything that is any launch other than crew must conform to the launch restrictions of "Rule 2".

[Death Engineering]

Mission Entry 10, Epilogue and Scoring

Final Mission Report for the Duna Space Program is here.

Epilogue and Scoring report is here.

Just the scores:

Mods used: Subassembly Manager, Kerbal Alarm Clock

Until Day 500:

• 7 launches
  
• 378t NIMLKO
  
• Early Mission Value: 1208
  
• Efficiency: 3.2
  

Until Day 1000:

• 13 launches
  
• 702t NIMLKO
  
• Sustained Mission Value: 4837
  
• Efficiency: 8.6
  

Achievements:

• Mission Execution: 2
  
• Crew Mobility: 2
  
• Base Mobility: 0
  
• Crew Safety: 0
  
• Mission Robustness: 2
  
  • Score: 6
    

Kruzin' on Duna

Edited August 18, 2013 by Death Engineering
kontinuity

[Speeding Mullet]

I've now created a mission report, which I will be updating as I perform the mission execution. I had another major overhaul in mission architecture, but everything is now ready to go.

Duna Navigator - Duna Permanent Outpost Mission Architecture Challenge

Primary Scores:

Early Mission Value: 882

Early Mission NIMLKO: 13 launches, 338 tons

Early Mission Efficiency: 2.61

Sustained Mission Value: 6336

Sustained Mission NIMLKO: 26 launches, 676 tons

Sustained Mission Efficiency: 9.37

Achievement Scores:

Mission Execution - 0 (will fly missions in the future)

Crew Mobility - 2

Base Mobility - 2

Crew Safety - 1

Mission Robustness - 2

TOTAL: 7 (hopefully 10 with full Execution score later!)

[Patupi]

I've reached day 500 in the mission execution and updated my mission thread accordingly. Some minor problems and it seems the Damn Robotics hinges that allow the docking port to reach any height had trouble... or something there anyway. Once docked the strut the arm was connected to rotated through the rover slowly, but relentlessly. Had a quicksave before luckily, but it was weird. Once flipped the whole Odyssey lander up over the little rover! Talk about Samson!

Project Archimedes

Oh, and just to repeat my day 500 score:

Early mission score: 118days with 8 kerbals + 150days with another 8 kerbals = 2144

Early mission NIMLKO: 12 launches, 28 tons each, total 336

Early mission efficiency: 6.38

So far Achievements:

Mission execution: 1 likely will be 3 soon.

Crew mobility: 0 Not enough rovers

Base mobility: 3

Crew safety: 2

Mission robustness: 2 (surprise, since it wasn't planned. With the extra non-Hohmann transfer it leaves two launches that arrive at Duna before day 500)

Total Achievements: 8 so far, hopefully 10 once mission plan successfully played through *Crosses fingers*

[GabrielG.A.B.Fonseca]

Update on my entry: The bastard Know as Duna Descent/Ascent Vehicle is finally complete. It is called DAVE (Duna Ascent VEhicle) and is responsible for bringing the crew back to the DTV. It is also charged for murdering a guy named HAL.

So, I'm now unofficially testing my designs, and will officially start my entry as a new thread on the forums soonâ„¢.

[sturmstiger]

Mechjeb 2.0

Two extra questions

1. At which degree does a lifter is considered reusable? i have made a lifter which is at the moment 75% reusable, does it comply with the rule of 1.5 days*payload capacity?

2. Can i use an SSTO in order to deliver small portions of outpost payloads? if yes does it have to comply with rule no 2?

1. Yes.

2. Anything other than crew to LKO, no matter how small it is, must be launched with your standard (cargo) lifter. If that lifter happens to be a (fully reusable) SSTO it will be considered a reusable lifter but doesn't get any additional bonus.

[sturmstiger]

...On that Sturmstiger, are you working perhaps on an extension or similar challenge to this for people who complete this one?

Well I don't have anything else similar to this at the moment. In fact I barely had anytime to play KSP lately due to RL commitments.

The obvious extension is to use a refinement of the rules / scoring system for another body, for example, Laythe, which provides some differences in terms of transfer window, deltaV, a mostly ocean surface & potential jet engine use - but otherwise it's similar enough to be probably quite boring for people who have already done this challenge. Of course anybody's free to start their own challenge using some ideas or variations of rules used in this challenge.

The other thing I had been thinking about is a forum-based cooperative space program with a focus on realism. The idea is that we'll have two groups to players, one presenting the "scientific community" and the other presenting the "aerospace industry", and they'll be working together to explore space. At each "phase" (modeled as several years of in-game time) I'll announce a very high-level exploration objective. The "scientific community" will propose a number of missions which may further that objective, and there will be a forum vote to select a few of them to fund. Then the "aerospace industry" will compete to design & build the hardware for these missions and to get those funding. Again there will be a forum vote to decide who will be awarded the contracts. The companies will be able to use the awarded funding (minus the costs) to design and build hardware for the next phase, which will have new objectives and missions based on the "discoveries" from the successful missions. The total funding will be very limited, thus only the best designed missions will be flown, and the most efficient (in using the limited funding to develop the technologies and build the hardware) aerospace companies will survive after a few rounds. Again, this is is unlike anything done before, and will need some thinking to make it work, so it probably won't happen anytime soon - the upcoming career mode may also affect how this will work out.

[Donziboy2]

Question about heatshields for Duna.

I have landed several test craft and done a few aerobrakings and the only time I saw any signs of heat is when I screwed up an aerobrake and went to close (12k) and just about crashed.

If we use thrust assisted braking and landings do we need heatshields?

[Patupi]

From what Sturmstiger has said before (and relating to what I've actually done in-mission) as long as there are no visible heat shield effects and you prove it via images etc (or something) then it should be fine. I have at least one component that relies on this and has no heat shield, though most of my vessels do have a heatshield, despite there being no visible need as far as I can see. I try on that one vessel (the Odyssey habitat lander) to slow it prior to landing with a secondary vessel, either the ITVs (my interplanetary vessels) or the local tug I brought with me, so it should be landing slow enough that thermal problems shouldn't be a problem. One other trick I use is to use a very shallow angle of attack through the atmosphere for descent. That should slow you enough before you get deep enough into the air so you are less likely to get flame effects.

[ThreeMartiniLaunch]

So....If I do not have any Kerbals on Duna by day 1000, will it adversely affect my score?

[Patupi]

I think a score of zero might be a little adverse. But some people might disagree

[sturmstiger]

Question about heatshields for Duna.

I have landed several test craft and done a few aerobrakings and the only time I saw any signs of heat is when I screwed up an aerobrake and went to close (12k) and just about crashed.

If we use thrust assisted braking and landings do we need heatshields?

Finally somebody brought this up...

No according to the rules if you don't see reentry heat effects you don't need heat shields. And I also find that Duna aerocapture from a Kerbin Hohmann transfer orbit and then descent from a low Duna orbit don't generate visible effects. But, for fairness (everyone else is using heat-shields for components which land on Duna), realistic feel (being able to land with parachutes suggest a heat shield would be needed for descent) and the safety of your Kerbals (what if somebody screwed up the aerocapture and turned it into a direct descent) I would strongly recommend you have them.

[sturmstiger]

My first simulated landed came down a little to hard..... Back to the drawing board.

I did come up with what may be my emergency ascent vehicle......

Jeb, Bill, Bob and dont remember the other guy lol.

Did you draw inspirations from the Apollo Lunar Escape System?

[Speeding Mullet]

The obvious extension is to use a refinement of the rules / scoring system for another body, for example, Laythe.........

I'm going to loosely use the structure of this challenge to visit Laythe after doing mission execution on navigator, because the thought process that went into the whole mission made the game far more interesting and involved. I am however, going to take thing back to 'experimental' for a while and fly some exploding sculpture work.

The other thing I had been thinking about is a forum-based cooperative space program with a focus on realism.....

which is a great idea, and way more time consuming than administrating this challenge I would imagine. I could see how it would work well in a forum environment.

Thanks for updating the challenge entries, and Apollo lunar escape system is a good call - those old drawings wouldn't fill me with confidence!

Edited August 19, 2013 by Speeding Mullet

[Donziboy2]

Ya, I loosely based the emergency lifter off a scott manley build and he mentioned the Apollo Lunar Escape System. I dumped it later on for a larger and safer design.

Hmm, should have a shield... Damn im setup without one. And there is no room on one rocket for anything, I have to dump all the fuel just to get it under 30T, and my launch vehicle gets it to 75k orbit with 50-60mS left lol. I would rather not dump anymore fuel from the IPT, since i dump most of it to get it to 30T.

My nearly completed first expedition. I figure, launch 6, 7 and 8 first and fill it completely then go back and pick up the rest on second launch, should get me about 90% of its total fueled weight which is about 90T. I had 3X the amount of fuel I would need and im taking the kethane lander to IKE.

The lander and emergency supplies could keep the kerbals alive for 150 days. I tried to double up on as much as I could.

And as long as they dont crash the HAB/Mobile Base they have 3 Co2 recyclers and only 1 is needed to recycle all their waste. Plus the intake for sucking up Co2 from the atmo. So they could be there for years.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Donziboy2

[meyst]

Finally somebody brought this up...

No according to the rules if you don't see reentry heat effects you don't need heat shields. And I also find that Duna aerocapture from a Kerbin Hohmann transfer orbit and then descent from a low Duna orbit don't generate visible effects. But, for fairness (everyone else is using heat-shields for components which land on Duna), realistic feel (being able to land with parachutes suggest a heat shield would be needed for descent) and the safety of your Kerbals (what if somebody screwed up the aerocapture and turned it into a direct descent) I would strongly recommend you have them.

Good to know. After reading a paper on a fully propulsive Mars EDL system I was going to be use that set up for a roving base with a large wheel base (bigger than what I was prepared to shield with our regular shielding systems) and a crew landing vehicle that was going to be able to have a propulsive abort to orbit capability. I was also hoping to gain the capability of landing in mountain ranges, parachutes from my experience are fail for landing on those.

Edited August 19, 2013 by meyst

[Raptor831]

If you can get your velocity down under 300 m/s you can get parachutes to work in the Duna highlands. I tested there for a bit, and that was the only way. Still saves delta-V to do that, if only a bit.