Titan.

[Rockhem]

Titan, my favorite moon, is interesting because of the possibility of methane-based life.

I also have a question, If you had a oxygen mask, and sufficient heating, could you survive on Titan?

I just wanted to start a discussion about Titan.

[Promii]

Surface pressure on Titan is about 50% higher than Earth, which is perfectly survivable assuming breathing and temperature are taken care of as you say.

[Jokurr]

Short term I don’t see why not, as long as you have enough food to eat and oxygen to breathe during your stay. Setting up a long term colony is a bit harder compared to somewhere like Mars, even when not accounting for the extra distance. Mars has water ice which can be used to irrigate crops and generate breathable oxygen, something that can’t be done on Titan. It’s also significantly colder on Titan so you’ll need a lot more energy to stay warm. I tried to find information on what the radiation is like on the surface of Titan and apparently it is quite low due to the thick atmosphere, one advantage it would have over Mars.

As an interesting side note, due to Titans mix of low gravity and dense atmosphere, a human could strap on wings and fly around like a bird. That would be pretty fun I think.

[Awaras]

Short term I don’t see why not, as long as you have enough food to eat and oxygen to breathe during your stay. Setting up a long term colony is a bit harder compared to somewhere like Mars, even when not accounting for the extra distance. Mars has water ice which can be used to irrigate crops and generate breathable oxygen, something that can’t be done on Titan. It’s also significantly colder on Titan so you’ll need a lot more energy to stay warm. I tried to find information on what the radiation is like on the surface of Titan and apparently it is quite low due to the thick atmosphere, one advantage it would have over Mars.

As an interesting side note, due to Titans mix of low gravity and dense atmosphere, a human could strap on wings and fly around like a bird. That would be pretty fun I think.

Cassini discovers water on Titan

[Jokurr]

Wow I am not sure how I missed something like that. Well that makes life easier.

[harharluke]

My science knowledge is limited so I'll just leave my message as simple as possible

Spacey Wacey Radiation can mess you up, that's why NASA is starting to have second thoughts on a manned mission to Mars

[Spaceisbeautifulul]

Dang man, water most always means life.

I take full credit for the idea of modifying a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunker_buster to penetrate the surface and see if there is life.

[NovaSilisko]

Dang man, water most always means life.

Can we say that for certain? We know water was on mars but don't have any hard evidence that life existed there, we haven't sampled any of the subsurface oceans of Jupiter's moons yet, so we really can't say that water = life just yet. That's not to say it's not possible, certainly not, but saying it "almost always means life" isn't quite accurate.

[Spaceisbeautifulul]

Well, yes, but water gives us a good chance of life right?

A moderate chance even?

[Kryten]

Not really. What you need for life is the water and the right original building blocks, at this point thought to mostly be RNA nucleotides. They're actually pretty common, in cometary material-but that material has to actually get to the water (which isn't going to happen if there's several KM of ice in the way), and it has to be able to stay in highly concentrated solution for long periods of time, which isn't going to happen in a large below-surface ocean.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Kryten

[PakledHostage]

For anyone who's interested reading a reasonable summary of the mothballed TSSM mission to Titan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_Saturn_System_Mission

The mission was originally planned for launch in 2020 and would include a balloon phase and possibly even the Titan Mare Explorer.

While the Europa Jupiter System Mission was given priority for funding (although I think it too has been mothballed), lets hope that the TSSM mission eventually does go ahead.

[Themohawkninja]

Can we say that for certain? We know water was on mars but don't have any hard evidence that life existed there, we haven't sampled any of the subsurface oceans of Jupiter's moons yet, so we really can't say that water = life just yet. That's not to say it's not possible, certainly not, but saying it "almost always means life" isn't quite accurate.

Science has to go off of what we know of, and as far as I know, virtually everywhere on Earth where there is water, there is also life, so assuming that the same is true for extra-terrestrial bodies is accurate from what we have discovered. Combining that with the fact that the nucleotides that make up life on Earth have been found on asteroids, which are prolific in our solar system, there is a good chance that life exists in Europa's oceans.

How long it will take to dig/drill/melt through 60 miles of ice to see if the life is there is a whole other story.

[Brotoro]

Science has to go off of what we know of, and as far as I know, virtually everywhere on Earth where there is water, there is also life, so assuming that the same is true for extra-terrestrial bodies is accurate from what we have discovered. Combining that with the fact that the nucleotides that make up life on Earth have been found on asteroids, which are prolific in our solar system, there is a good chance that life exists in Europa's oceans.

How long it will take to dig/drill/melt through 60 miles of ice to see if the life is there is a whole other story.

You can't extrapolate from one data point. We don't know how difficult it is for life to form even if you have a planet with the proper conditions. I have some biologist friends who think that the chances of the right chemical reactions occurring to make life are a one in a billion chance, and we are the only planet (out of the billion possibilities in our Galaxy) that hit the jackpot. I have other biologist friends who think that since Earth managed to do it sometime in its first billion years, it can't be all that difficult. It's true that once life gets going it has shown that it can adapt and survive in the damnedest places...but it's the question of how readily life forms in the first place that is the big question.

[K^2]

I also have a question, If you had a oxygen mask, and sufficient heating, could you survive on Titan?

I'm pretty sure Titan's atmo is toxic. So you'd need either an air tank or an oxygen tank with a rebreather and carbon dioxide scrubbers, as well as a suit with sufficient thermal insulation and exterior that can withstand such low temperatures and remain flexible and durable. All in all, the requirements for a Titan suit aren't that different from a space suit. I don't think you are going to win much on the fact that atmospheric pressure on Titan is habitable.

On the other hand, habitats would be much easier to build. They'd need all the same requirements, but when you build a large structure, the pressure differential is much harder to work with. You can build a habitat with pressure on the inside matching that of Titan's atmosphere and fill it with breathable air.

[magnemoe]

Dang man, water most always means life.

I take full credit for the idea of modifying a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunker_buster to penetrate the surface and see if there is life.

Far smarter to use an lander with an nuclear reactor, let it heat up and melt its way down through the ice. Far more control and you can put some small sub probes on it to explore while below.

[PakledHostage]

Far smarter to use an lander with an nuclear reactor, let it heat up and melt its way down through the ice. Far more control and you can put some small sub probes on it to explore while below.

Sure, but how do you transmit your data back to the ice's surface? Radio waves don't penetrate that far through ice, it will be almost impossible to keep the ice from refreezing behind your probe, and carrying 60 km of cable with you over which to transmit data to the surface is probably impractical.

Clearly there are some major technical challenges to that type of mission. We might be limited to looking for evidence of life in surface ice on regions of the surface where there have been recent "eruptions" of sub surface water.

Edited June 12, 2013 by PakledHostage

[stupid_chris]

Even though Titan has a thick atmosphere, I think it would be needed to consider the amount of radiation coming from Saturn. Titan doesn't have a magnetosphere of it's own, so the only shielding it gets is it's own atmosphere. It spends most of it time in Saturn's, but it's orbit goes out of it for a short period, meaning it's a big green light for solar winds. I doubt a human could survive the radiation it receives for too long without proper shielding :l

[Themohawkninja]

You can't extrapolate from one data point. We don't know how difficult it is for life to form even if you have a planet with the proper conditions. I have some biologist friends who think that the chances of the right chemical reactions occurring to make life are a one in a billion chance, and we are the only planet (out of the billion possibilities in our Galaxy) that hit the jackpot. I have other biologist friends who think that since Earth managed to do it sometime in its first billion years, it can't be all that difficult. It's true that once life gets going it has shown that it can adapt and survive in the damnedest places...but it's the question of how readily life forms in the first place that is the big question.

Until I learned of the discovery of nucleotides on meteorites, I agreed with your friends, however, due to the prolific nature of nucleotides in asteroids, and the fact that there are so many asteroids, the question (to me) seems to be a matter of what are the chances of enough asteroids hitting a planet, at the right time in the planet's development, on a planet who's environment won't destroy the nucleotide?

The answer to that, is again probably slim, as the vast majority of exo-planets are gas giants (who's huge atmosphere, and fast winds I would believe would keep nucleotides from combining into life), and many (if not most) of the rocky exo-planets are outside the habitable zone (not to say that life can't exist outside that, but probably only on the far side, and not the near side, if that).

[Tommygun]

There was something I saw on the Science channel recently.

There was an astronomer that studies Titan and she estimated, if I remember correctly, that with oxygen it would take a person 15 to 30 minutes to freeze to death on Titan.

You might be unconscious for a lot of that? She didn't say what type of clothing was used for that estimate.

[RickyKSP]

There are 2 possible models of Titan: an outer crust with warm, convecting water below surface; or a crust with cold, frozen liquid underneath We know that there is liquid on Titan, and it's really similar to Earth

[Jokurr]

Even though Titan has a thick atmosphere, I think it would be needed to consider the amount of radiation coming from Saturn. Titan doesn't have a magnetosphere of it's own, so the only shielding it gets is it's own atmosphere. It spends most of it time in Saturn's, but it's orbit goes out of it for a short period, meaning it's a big green light for solar winds. I doubt a human could survive the radiation it receives for too long without proper shielding :l

Just wondering if you have a source on that? I was also curious if radiation would be a problem and the best info I could find were vague assertions that the atmosphere would be thick enough to make it a non-issue. Hard to find any hard numbers though, don't know if they've ever been measured or even estimated for that matter.

There was something I saw on the Science channel recently.

There was an astronomer that studies Titan and she estimated, if I remember correctly, that with oxygen it would take a person 15 to 30 minutes to freeze to death on Titan.

You might be unconscious for a lot of that? She didn't say what type of clothing was used for that estimate.

That sounds a little too long, though I don't know for sure. The temperature is a frigid 94 Kelvins (or -180C or -291F), that is incomprehensibly cold. Plus the thicker atmosphere means you will lose heat much quicker than you would at the same temperature on earth. A slight gust of wind makes the issue much worse.

[K^2]

Just wondering if you have a source on that? I was also curious if radiation would be a problem and the best info I could find were vague assertions that the atmosphere would be thick enough to make it a non-issue. Hard to find any hard numbers though, don't know if they've ever been measured or even estimated for that matter.

Radiation isn't going to be a problem on Titan. The fact that H2 is produced only in upper layers of atmo is direct evidence of that.

[stupid_chris]

Just wondering if you have a source on that? I was also curious if radiation would be a problem and the best info I could find were vague assertions that the atmosphere would be thick enough to make it a non-issue. Hard to find any hard numbers though, don't know if they've ever been measured or even estimated for that matter.

I had checked Wikipedia quickly beforehand and theres no actual measures of it. I just made a bit more reasearch and apparently it wouldn't be an issue. It would probably be higher than on earth though. But that would need further measurements.

Edit:

Radiation isn't going to be a problem on Titan. The fact that H2 is produced only in upper layers of atmo is direct evidence of that.

It's not measured, Huygens didn't carry any radiation detectors and it's still shady for now. It's certainly low and not a big danger, but could maybe pose on a long term scale.

Edited June 12, 2013 by stupid_chris

[K^2]

It's not measured, Huygens didn't carry any radiation detectors and it's still shady for now. It's certainly low and not a big danger, but could maybe pose on a long term scale.

It's not measured directly. Yet, if there was any ionizing radiation, you'd expect to see evidence of ionization, like high concentrations of H2 near the surface. On the contrary, we see even lower levels than expected.

[stupid_chris]

It's not measured directly. Yet, if there was any ionizing radiation, you'd expect to see evidence of ionization, like high concentrations of H2 near the surface. On the contrary, we see even lower levels than expected.

Lower levels could be an indication that an unknown factor is reacting with the said produced H2 in the upper atmosphere. Sometimes models we think stable turn out to be quite variable and often we find out while visiting other worlds and realizing they don't react the way we expect. This isn't a bad thing, being proved wrong is the best way to come up with a better theory.

That's why I can't wait for someone to point out what isn't working with Einstein's general relativity. Not because I don't like it, I love the theory, but it will mean a huge revolution in physics and probably the come of a new more complete model.