The L.O.G. Multiplayer Project

[The Destroyer]

Perhaps he's showing 2 craft going at the same time... hmmm

[swiftgates24]

Perhaps he's showing 2 craft going at the same time... hmmm

Sir, you just won the observation award

If that is how it would look in real multiplayer, I really wouldn't mind the jitteriness. It's not that bad.

[MarkusA380]

Well, the setting of rotation is very ressource-hungry somehow, thats why I set the rotation only every 10 frames atm., but I have made the plugin without this jitterness, too.

Well, the name "proof of concept" is maybe a bit misleading, because it has nothing to do with the Timewarp or Gameplay...

[PringleMan]

To be honest I get a little annoyed with the people who expect any proposal to be so feature complete.

Right now, if you have made something that can collect the position data and recreate it live in game, you have accomplished the first big leap in my opinion. For a pretty long while, 90% of what people are going to want to do is build stations with each other. I would say work on making that possible first, without worrying about timewarp at all. THEN work on timewarp and your log system and stuff.

[MarkusA380]

To be honest I get a little annoyed with the people who expect any proposal to be so feature complete.

Right now, if you have made something that can collect the position data and recreate it live in game, you have accomplished the first big leap in my opinion. For a pretty long while, 90% of what people are going to want to do is build stations with each other. I would say work on making that possible first, without worrying about timewarp at all. THEN work on timewarp and your log system and stuff.

That pretty much sums all up.

The Timewarp system should be the very last step, now we should worry about the major problems like the connection of two or more plugins, the shifting origin problem and a bug-free vessel spawning.

CARROTSAREAWESOME has created a simple server and client, but they have compatibility problems with the plugin, so there is some work to do left.

[pizzaoverhead]

Glad to see your progress in the video!

I see another example of the logging of craft position being tackled by SirJodelstein in the Persistent Trails mod. That's another major requirement of this mod that now has a working proof-of-concept. Barriers are dropping every day!

[CARROTSAREAWSOME]

---[Do not mind this post]---

Edited September 25, 2013 by CARROTSAREAWSOME
I relized that this post was unneeded

[MarkusA380]

Hello everyone.

Today i decided to do some updates, so here we go!

What ive being doing lately is learning some C#. Today i did translating from python to C#. I got it pretty much working, it is but still so messy, unstable and resource heavy that i cant post it to forums.

MarkusA380 havent done anything, becouse the whole plugin is build on top of my server. Same thing with Zer0t3ch.

Cheers,

CARROTSAREAWSOME, Network Development. (that sounds cool )

Hi CARROTSAREAWESOME,

oficially. Inoficially, we are messaging us daily, but whatever.

So, please do not post any parts of the project here, I think we should release the first stable version of the Multiplayer Mod in one package.

zer0t3ch has made a git repository on bitbucket.org, you should register there, he will invite you to the repository then. There, you can upload your work and download the work of me and zer0t3ch.

P.S.: Mini server derp!

Edited September 24, 2013 by MarkusA380

[Meatsauce]

[MarkusA380]

Haha! Thank you very much!

[TheCanadianVendingMachine]

What does the "proof of concept"-video tell us?

It tells us that he can track player position then plug it into the client world

[Xentoe]

Sound slike a very cool project.

All I talk about KSP ask for aMultiplayer.

How will it handle Mods? (If...)

[MarkusA380]

Sound slike a very cool project.

All I talk about KSP ask for aMultiplayer.

How will it handle Mods? (If...)

You seem to be a huge mod-freak (see GASEK), but I think there will be no or just very few mods which don't change the gameplay. That means, NO warpdrive etc.

That's because everyone would need the mods you use, another way is technically impossible.

[Xentoe]

Yes I am, and this is clear :-) It was only a question of interest .

(Because this combatility problem).

[CARROTSAREAWSOME]

Hmm... Maybe it would work that when server "asks" client to send data of the ship, it checks that is all parts of the ship stock. If there is mod parts, plugin will send model file, texture, .CFG file and all attached plugins. When you come close enough to see the parts (2.5km) they will be added to your game so it will work properly for you. All will be saved in somekinda temp folder so when you disconnect from server, it will delete all the files. This prevents massive KSP folder sizes.

NOTE: this maybe wont be added to plugin, or might be added in FAR future, when everything else is added.

Edited September 28, 2013 by CARROTSAREAWSOME

[Faark]

If there is mod parts, plugin will send model file, texture, .CFG file and all attached plugins. [..] All will be saved in somekinda temp folder so when you disconnect from server, it will delete all the files.

And I'm pretty sure you could still be sued for distributing mods without permission.

[Technical Ben]

IMO, "KISS" = "KEEP IS SIMPLE SUNSHINE"

Forget mods for this first iteration. Get it working, get it bug free. Then worry about different mods to different clients/users.

[PringleMan]

And I'm pretty sure you could still be sued for distributing mods without permission.

Wow, that is not the same as distributing files at all. Distributing a file means giving a permanent, locally accessible copy of a file to someone. Something in the temp folder that is in active use by a program cannot be accessed for modification or deletion, and even though it may be copied it will often be pretty terribly garbled since it was mid-way through a data change. Anything like cfgs and models being passed along temporarily would not count for distribution.

What you suggest would be tantamount to saying that you had hacked and extracted the files from an installer because it set them up temporarily in ram. A clever person could access it and save it and reverse engineer everything from the installer, sure. But Who in the hell would bother doing that when you can go download the same files risk free from the author.

If you really feel strongly about it you can feel free to try and press suit and see how that pans out.

[frizzank]

I love arm chair lawyers and the internet. If it was a serious medical problem would you trust medical advice given on these forums or ask an actual doctor?

I decided to ask an actual lawyer, this is what he said.

Best case no one cares. At worst they would ask you to take down the mod. For them to sue you, first they have to find you, assuming your forum name is your real name "HuggyBear223" -his example not mine. Most likely it would start with a Cease and Desist letter which you would have to ignore. Also are they going to spend the time and money to one, find you, two, come to where you live and try and sue for damages considering both mods are free and openly available to the public? No lawyer in the world would advise you to take that case, unless you pay him a large sum up front, because you would probably end up loosing money on the case.

[MarkusA380]

Think of this:

You play L.O.G. and your challenge is to be first on Mun.

Then, a newb with warpdrive turns up before you and lands on Mun with MechJeb.

That would destroy the whole fun.

Seriously, no mods or one or two mods for everyone which don't destroy the gameplay.

[james4832]

Maybe you could have something like a 'Closed (Anti-mod)' server and an 'Open (Do what you want) server' like some games do. You could have something like a cheat detection thing where it scans your KSP folder and decides whether or not you have mods.

EDIT: also private servers, if not suggested already

Edited September 27, 2013 by james4832

[Meatsauce]

You seem to be a huge mod-freak (see GASEK), but I think there will be no or just very few mods which don't change the gameplay. That means, NO warpdrive etc.

That's because everyone would need the mods you use, another way is technically impossible.

Support for mods are essential. The game is more or less a lightweight shell without them. You could just require mods on the server, and admins will create fan sites, with the list of mods you need to play on the server. Or we can figure a way to push down a message stating the mods required.

Alternatively, some mods will just run locally and merely influence the data, prior to network transport.

[Meatsauce]

And I'm pretty sure you could still be sued for distributing mods without permission.

No. You must show a tort or a damage. No damage. No suit.

Since we're talking about addons and not commercial software, you can legally use software made public and share it with your friends. You can't profit it from it though, as that would be damaging. A dev might sue you, but for what, and what cost? A suit will cost you $5k and for software, sometimes upwards of 20k.

So hypothetically, some admin who puts the mods on his server to be pushed down is not damaging or infringing. He is using the mod, as it was designed and released to do.

If MP becomes a supported thing in this or other MP endeavors, mod devs will need to change their terms of use to fit the community's expectations and convenience. I doubt any mod dev would be opposed to distributing mods from cloud sources to affect a MP game.

If you changed it around, sold it, and released it under the same name... then yea; that's problematic.

[MarkusA380]

Hi Meatsauce!

Well, I really see your point that there is a way to use mods for multiplayer, but on the other hand a multiplayer mod shouldn't have mods (or just very few) to make it worth playing. A real fun gameplay can only occur if you have the same difficulity of a vanilla version. In this case you have challenges to do worth playing together: What does multiplayer be worth if everyone builds his warp driven space cruisers and teleports to Laythe? Simply nothing.

Only creating bases and such together on moons and planets with much work and time envolved will make fun over a long time. (And yes, war is also possible) (and minigames and such...)

So, there are NO mods planned to be supported. Please take it as it is, no mod I know except Kethane is not changing the game difficulity.

[Meatsauce]

Hi Meatsauce!

Well, I really see your point that there is a way to use mods for multiplayer, but on the other hand a multiplayer mod shouldn't have mods (or just very few) to make it worth playing. A real fun gameplay can only occur if you have the same difficulity of a vanilla version. In this case you have challenges to do worth playing together: What does multiplayer be worth if everyone builds his warp driven space cruisers and teleports to Laythe? Simply nothing.

Only creating bases and such together on moons and planets with much work and time envolved will make fun over a long time. (And yes, war is also possible) (and minigames and such...)

So, there are NO mods planned to be supported. Please take it as it is, no mod I know except Kethane is not changing the game difficulity.

Hey Markus,

One thing that I've learned is that mp communities flourish on the diversity of experience, but you are not mistake regarding a challenging goal driving participation. I just don't think that it should be limited to mining because of a resource need.

Players will want to play together, for almost anything, others will want to work alone, but still share some element of the MP experieince. Most of these reasons do not hinge around mining integers. What happens after mining? We end up accumulating all these 'resources' that we can turn into rockets? It is just very limited in my opinion and might get tedious. Now, build ingame currency is a potential angle, but makes little sense in a small scale multiplayer short of 30 slots.

Its a big universe, and you could very well have players start on other planets and work (as teams) to locate and destroy other factions.

Still, I feel the best 'gamemode' for this would be straight sandbox, in which you have minigames and group challenges. Mostly, giving the player the choice of experiences and tools will yield the most rewarding gameplay. Allow a server and sub-mod community to take on a life of its own.

If there is one mod you should support, it should be the lasor mod by Rom. That will be maximum fun for those who dislike grinding. The combat takes on a great life with MP and that mod. It would also spur development of counter measures, and early detection radar. It takes the game forward. Most of this could be done only on the client side, and just have the server account for missiles exist, position, vecs and states.

As far as tech, yea - a free mode would be fun and part of sandbox. Why restrict? At the very least, give server admins the ability to choose a difficulty setting.

I hear you on the difficulty aspect of working together to build space programs, and I'm 100% on board with it. Thank for you for the effort you put in on it.

Just my .02

-M

Edited September 27, 2013 by Meatsauce