The L.O.G. Multiplayer Project

[PringleMan]

Hi Meatsauce!

Well, I really see your point that there is a way to use mods for multiplayer, but on the other hand a multiplayer mod shouldn't have mods (or just very few) to make it worth playing. A real fun gameplay can only occur if you have the same difficulity of a vanilla version. In this case you have challenges to do worth playing together: What does multiplayer be worth if everyone builds his warp driven space cruisers and teleports to Laythe? Simply nothing.

Only creating bases and such together on moons and planets with much work and time envolved will make fun over a long time. (And yes, war is also possible) (and minigames and such...)

So, there are NO mods planned to be supported. Please take it as it is, no mod I know except Kethane is not changing the game difficulity.

I think you are also mistaking what mod support for this project would mean. It does not mean that mods are required, or that this would require other mods to make it worth playing. It means that they can be used IF desired. For me I find vanilla KSP to be quite boring. There are not really other goals than to fly to a planetary body. Sure we could try to land multiple objects in close proximity to each other, but even then that will get old fast. Mods offer an alternative to waiting months and years for the KSP devs to MAYBE add something that jives with your own ideas. Not to say they are doing a bad job, just that they have very different goals and standards since they are doing this for a living.

As well, can you please show me where it says that there is just one central server? Because it seems to me your argument is only worth having if there is only a single server for everyone to play on. Otherwise, if you don't like that a server is using mods, then play on a different server! And adding in a verification for a stock installation, if that is your preference, is not a huge deal compared to the other problems.

Now having said all that, I do think that mod support should be the lowest of priorities.

[MarkusA380]

Ok, I see your point. Multiplayer in vanilla gets boring, yes.

But that was never the plan.

We are re-thinking the gameplay concept, ok?

[Hydralisk]

I think that if everyone clicks the warp key then you should all begin to warp at the fastest warp allowed. For instance, if you all click it but someone is near the atmosphere, the speed of the warp will be based off the person near atmosphere. That way, you don't all have to go to the command center and such to warp, but it also prevents the person near the atmosphere from being blown up. (I actually do not know what would happen if you forced warp someone near the atmosphere, but I am sure it is not pretty ).

[Heagar]

I would really like an mp-solution, in witch i can interact with other people (and/or their crafts). But that would mean that the server have too mutch to collect and distribute. After a little brainstorming of mine, the possible needed minimum data for following steps:

//For the players own craft//

• the *.craft file (please think of ships with more than 200 parts)
  
• comparison of the actual craft with the *.craft file (i'll discuss this later on)
  

//Additional data when the player can see other ships in the map-view.//

• the velocity of the spacecraft and it's vector
  
• altitude above a gravity-source (Planet, moon, star)
  

//Additional data when the player can see the other crafts in flight (he have to be down to 2 km, where KSP load the nearby crafts)//

• attitude and accelaration of the spacescraft
  

//Additional data when docking etc. is implemented//

• mass of the actual crafts (with fuel load etc.)
  
• data of the physics simulation
  

If you really want a "race to the mun" with different fractions only, the following is important:

//There may no docking to an other players spacecraft needed for archieving the goal.//

A single ship can do the work. Maybe you watch for a few hours your ship to land on the mun without time-warp.

//Better wait for the career mode from SQUAD. Because://

This "race to mun"-scenario complicates this kind of mp in a manner, witch you should reconcider.

• A savegame on a local computer can be overwritten. And then a guy could easyly do this:
  . Mission acomplished for her/his fraction.
  
• A player can quicksave and load a mission
  
• a player can restart/abort the mission
  

The solution would be, to store all regarding savegames and their *.craft files on the server, quite a heavy load. And that's mean further:

• to deactivate the debug menu
  
• to make it impossible to use the F5-/F9-option and the "revert"-button.
  
• to use a plugin like "mission-controller" without the option to start a flight without using it. A fraction then have to earn money with some "goal-steps" or normal missions in order to be able to effort the building of a mun-rocket with lander.
  Look at RiS to knew what i mean http://sourceforge.net/projects/raceintospace/?source=directory.
  In this nice manager-style program even the reliabilty of a given mission is lowered if you jump to the next goal-step ahead, without performing the actual one (Going for an manned orbital flight without an succsessful completed manned suborbital flight first e.g.).
  
• Your plugin has prior to the connection to the server to check out, wether the part *.cfg's are altered or not (build in probecore/sience equipment in tank, or tank in wing e.g.). If the condition for that is true it have to deny the connection to the server.
  The source for comparison have to be on the server (and that will take it's time, longer as the loading screen).
  
• to destroy all debris automaticly, even ships witch are "stranded" and no kerbal is in it. For this your plugin have to check, if the ship is operational and in use. Otherwise you quickly will have "leftovers" everywhere, witch the server have to compute.
  This could be quite tricky to decide, especially when a craft (especially probes) "dies" during a munar night, when using e.g. solar pannels or a landing leg is broken and so on (actual stage is different to the design). And e.g. a descend/ascend stage of an LM with a probecore after an mission is present (Is mission_end true or false?).
  
• to prevent a "takeover" if the player is clicking on a alien vessel (map view in tracking station) of his fraction/competetive fraction or trying to change to an alien vessel nearby.
  

Nearly all above is impossible to achieve, because you have to reverse engineer KSP for that purpose, i suppose. And that is against the law.

Of course you can beg SQUAD to add the several needed points in their API .

If you wait for the career mode from SQUAD, a few points may be solved already. Because i think they will:

• encrypt the savegame in that mode
  
• make use of the prices for the parts for an craft
  
• make quicksave/-load and "revert"-button not accessible
  
• adding research, in witch you can advance with: achieving mission goals / spending credits / (game)time passing by
  

Edited September 28, 2013 by Heagar

[Ace_Of_Spades]

Me wantz it

[Faark]

@Heagar

Just let them do their "work". There is a lot of stuff that needs to be worked around anyway, so there will be solutions to use. Craft files are a good example. No one sane would design a system that uses ksp craft or save files to update vessels. It might be good for a proof of concept or early dev version, but are horrible inefficient in creating them and you could easily safe 90% traffic and more by using a different format.

Also Squad won't change anything on their safe system for the career mode. Actually, the last updates change to the "end flight" / revert system was made for the career mode or with it in mind. Also encrypting save game does not make any sense, since you cannot stop people from cheating in SP games if they want to.

@mod-topic:

The question is not what mods will be supported by an multi-player, but what mods will support the MP. Lot of especially pure part mods would might work just fine, but others will require a lot of work to make them compatible... especially those that change the gameplay mechanics. Guess aiming for a mostly stock mp is difficult enough, for now.

[NGTOne]

@mod-topic:

The question is not what mods will be supported by an multi-player, but what mods will support the MP. Lot of especially pure part mods would might work just fine, but others will require a lot of work to make them compatible... especially those that change the gameplay mechanics. Guess aiming for a mostly stock mp is difficult enough, for now.

The big problem is going to be gameplay mods that need persistent information that isn't saved in the persistence file (like Kethane, which randomly generates resource distributions in every new game). Most mods store 100% of the needed information in the ship's persistence file when the ship/game is unloaded. Stuff like RemoteTech and Kethane will be trickier.

But, to what I understand, it's effectively client/server-model savefile-synching (already been done, see the old Kessler plugin from 0.15 or whenever it was) with the added twist of future-position extrapolation (something Kessler didn't do). So the only problem, as I stated above, would be synching information that isn't stored in the savefile, and deciding who "wins" a conflict (my money's on the server generating its own version of the information, like in Minecraft - server-side plugins enable certain mods that store information outside the savefile).

[MarkusA380]

I think that if everyone clicks the warp key then you should all begin to warp at the fastest warp allowed. For instance, if you all click it but someone is near the atmosphere, the speed of the warp will be based off the person near atmosphere. That way, you don't all have to go to the command center and such to warp, but it also prevents the person near the atmosphere from being blown up. (I actually do not know what would happen if you forced warp someone near the atmosphere, but I am sure it is not pretty ).

Your idea isn`t good at all. Think of someone docking in orbit, and someone wanting to warp to Jool... pure chaos. Please think through your ideas before posting them. And please, accept that I did think through my concept before opening up this project.

[Rofl47]

I think when itsdone, i will have KSP fun with my friends!

[Heagar]

@ Faark

Ok, let's say it this way:

The idea of an muliplayer in KSP in my opinion would be to play with other people rather than against them.

And i mentioned that it would be a heavy server load nesseceary to make the given senario save.

The *.craft-files would be used to minimize debris and "stranded" craft's in my suggestion.

There are people out there with weird constructions like that one in the first link. Copy that craft into the savegame for the mp and a game would then last 38 minutes for the player and 35 minutes MET.

And there are guys like "the winter owl" who are able to edit an part's *.cfg file manually (therefore the mentioned check).

BTW: That ability is a must if you want to create new parts like e.g. the kethane mod, C7 pack and so on. So it's anything else than insane.

Besides: There is a mod existing (i don't knew it's name at the moment) with witch you can automaticly resize fueltanks (creating an new part *.cfg file it seems) to match the diameter and length you want.

A bit fiddeling with it's code, and you are able to equip nearly anything into an normal tank automaticly with the same name for the part *.cfg file.

The first FPS-games (like battlefied) - where is a sort of competition too - where suffering e.g. from so called "wall-hacks". One person is coding, several other people are using the hack then to have an advantage.

Unless you prevent this on serverside, there will be at all times people who will using hacks or bugs when playing.

You can't stop cheating in SP-mode, that's right. But when using the career mode with an encrypted savegame for the mp, it make sense:

- you have to complete goal-steps

- research have to be done

- there are limited resources for a fraction

Witch means: A longer game and more fun.

To say it in short:

If this mp would be released under the current conditions there would be only short, imbalanced games. Therefore i'd argued to reconcider the senario.

[Cheebsta]

I always enjoy watching people who know nothing about code engage in discussions about code, lol.

Good luck with this project, would be kind of neat to have KSP as a LAN option.

[MarkusA380]

I think when itsdone, i will have KSP fun with my friends!

Me too, indeed.

@haegar: You should learn a bit of coding to understand how KSP works. If you build a check program to look whether your KSP is vanilla or not, you would have a anti-cheat system halfway done.

And, we are actually talking about a downloadable server software, where the host can decide which mods he will make necessary to play on it. Every other mod or plugin will be forbidden.

Somebody hacking can easily be banned.

But to stop hacking completely we will need an anti-cheat engine.

[MarkusA380]

The server software is done!

I am looking forward to the first testing!

[The Destroyer]

Whoah, testing already.

*suddenly wants to test*

I uh... worked for Bobcat as a tester

[MarkusA380]

Whoah, testing already.

*suddenly wants to test*

I uh... worked for Bobcat as a tester

No, it's not THAT far. The plugin isn't done yet and we need so called "remote function calls" to let the client communicate with the plugin.

But I think the first connection will be etablished soon...

And I think we will invite some people to the first tests...

[The Destroyer]

Ah I see, I thought it was like early-alpha-2-players-can-dock kind of thing.

[nitrodoggy]

Hi!

I've just been reading through the thread, and would like to become a tester if possible, especially since it seems to be getting close to testing time!

I have been looking for a proper multiplayer mod for a while in KSP, and until now I have only been able to use the Kerbal LiveFeed mod. Me and alot of my friends play KSP, and we have always wanted to build awesome space stations together, or engage eachother in dogfights (Purely for testing purposes)

Thanks -Nitro

[popeter45]

will it be open alpha of closed?

[Meatsauce]

No, it's not THAT far. The plugin isn't done yet and we need so called "remote function calls" to let the client communicate with the plugin.

But I think the first connection will be etablished soon...

And I think we will invite some people to the first tests...

Great work guys!

[TheAlpha]

Looks very cool if it's not a fake

[MarkusA380]

Haha!

I like you guys for this!

So, everyone will be able to test the mod soon, but I can't answer when and in which state of development...

The first "community testing" will be with more or less famous people... I am thinking of some known YouTubers to show it to you.

But I have to ask them first...

@Meatsauce: Thank you, such posts cheer me up to continue the development with all of my dedication...

Looks very cool if it's not a fake

You didn't see the proof of concept video, did you?

*slaps himself for deleting it out of the first post*

Really, just trust me.

Edited October 1, 2013 by shadowsutekh
No double posts please!

[boomerdog2000]

How will you deal with say the 1st player timewarping for 400 days then exiting, then a 2nd player comes along and timewarps for 500 days.

What will happen to the 1st player's flight if it was on say an interplanetary encounter?

Will it just shoot off into a solar orbit then when player 1 rejoins jump back to its trajectory?

[ZingidyZongxxx]

Interesting solution for the time warp problem. The only problem I see is the one mentioned above, where anyone who leaves their flight on a transfer would miss their burn after the server jumps ahead when they come back. I guess that's easily solved by only leaving your ships on the ground or in orbit, but it would still be kind of annoying. It sounds great though and I have a few questions:

1: Does everyone launch from the same place on Kerbin? If so, how will they be kept from crashing if other people try to launch too?

2: How could people be prevented from destroying other people's creations? KSP has a nice community, but there are always people who do that sort of thing.

3: What about mod compatibility? Would mods be possible at all? If so, I assume they would have to be installed to the server.

[SILENTnoobXD]

1: Does everyone launch from the same place on Kerbin? If so, how will they be kept from crashing if other people try to launch too?

3: What about mod compatibility? Would mods be possible at all? If so, I assume they would have to be installed to the server.

I too have been wondering about how the mod compatibility will work. My guess was that its probably best to have the same mods, but I was curious what the Author's plans are.

I'll likely put up a server for it if possible. If it's mod compatible, I'd throw Kerbtown and Wayland Tower on there, then I'd have 2 runways and several Heli/VTOL pads. That; or extraplanetary launchpads.

I have a question though; has there been any thought given to cooperative ship editing? I and a few friends I used to play Hazeron with like building ships together. I was considering starting the grind of trying to build it myself, but I'd love to know if somebody is already doing/planning to do it.

[CARROTSAREAWSOME]

Interesting solution for the time warp problem. The only problem I see is the one mentioned above, where anyone who leaves their flight on a transfer would miss their burn after the server jumps ahead when they come back. I guess that's easily solved by only leaving your ships on the ground or in orbit, but it would still be kind of annoying. It sounds great though and I have a few questions:

1: Does everyone launch from the same place on Kerbin? If so, how will they be kept from crashing if other people try to launch too?

2: How could people be prevented from destroying other people's creations? KSP has a nice community, but there are always people who do that sort of thing.

3: What about mod compatibility? Would mods be possible at all? If so, I assume they would have to be installed to the server.

1. Were rethinking the gameplay. Probably there will be three or more places to start, lets call them clans for now. When you join to server first time, you can choose what clan you want to be part of. For the clans itself, there might be waiting system. Warp will be disabled for launch pad, becouse, well, if somebody time warps at the pad for 500 days, the pad becomes useless for those 500 days.

2. Peoples from other clans cant collide with you, unless if its specified from servers config file.

3. Mods. No mods for this super-alpha-hyper-closed-beta. Mods might be supported in the way Minecraft supports mod.

NOTE: anything can and probably will change, so dont have too big hopes regarding these things.