[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

[forsaken1111]

USI LS is a more stock-alike life support mod, without the complexity of TAC LS. Neither are 'better' or 'worse', just different preference for what people want to do. They effectively do the same thing which is to limit mission duration depending on how much extra weight you can carry, and allow clever use of resource modules to extend said duration.

[RoverDude]

I'd also add that this particular thread is probably not the best place to be having a debate over USI-LS vs TAC-LS, and to remind folks (in general) to be cool, given all of this stuff is provided to you for free, and as noted, rumors of this mod's deprecation appear greatly exaggerated.

Support the mods you like, quietly vote with your feet on the ones that do not suit your playstyle, but don't be jerky - whether that's hijacking another mod's thread to advertise other stuff, or talking trash about other mods (hint: Any sentence that starts with 'No offense...' usually means you should rethink that post...).

I expect Taranis would appreciate it if folks got things back on topic

[sashan]

Can we set up the atmospheric pressure when Kerbals start breathing atmospheric oxygen? Right now I can often remove Kerbal's helmet with KIS but Oxygen is still consumed.

Also, when you warp at high speed and some vessel runs out of oxygen KErbals die before timewarp stops. Maybe it should get you out of timewarp instantly? I've forgot two kerbals in a helicopter on Serran from new horizons pack, 5 meters from base, and they died. I could've EVA'ed them to base before the counter ran out, but wasn't able to because of timewarp.

[Kobymaru]

and as noted, rumors of this mod's deprecation appear greatly exaggerated.

I poked around the interwebs a bit and this fact did not seem apparent to me. Sorry that I started those rumors.

Support the mods you like, quietly vote with your feet on the ones that do not suit your playstyle, but don't be jerky - whether that's hijacking another mod's thread to advertise other stuff, or talking trash about other mods (hint: Any sentence that starts with 'No offense...' usually means you should rethink that post...).

Honestly, I haven't seen much jerkiness in the discussion. Most posters have simply explained their preference for TAC-LS (because we're in a TAC-LS thread; in a USI-LS, more people would preferer USI-LS).

However, I am still conflicted about which mod to use. I think they are both great. I like your idea of simplicity, kerbalness and gameplay, but I also like TaranisElsu's research and accuracy on Real-Life Life-Support systems. Regarding that, I am actually pleased to read arguments for or against one or the other mod because it can help me make up my own mind.

I expect Taranis would appreciate it if folks got things back on topic

I understand. But also I still haven't decided and want to hear peoples opinions. If I were to open a "TAC vs USI"-Thread, would that be closed immediately?

Edited September 24, 2015 by Kobymaru

[RoverDude]

Not sure why a thread comparing two mods would be closed immediately, provided folks weren't jerky and got it locked.

[ModZero]

Not sure why a thread comparing two mods would be closed immediately, provided folks weren't jerky and got it locked.

Protip: don't start it in "Add-on releases", unless you somehow make it into a mod. Pretty sure it would survive in general add-on affairs, though.

[DBowman]

Maybe a more general 'Life Support: what is it good for and which to use?' thread is a good idea. There are a couple of other LS mods right? Snacks & Biomass (not sure if this one is independent or an add-on to a mod)

[seanth]

Maybe a more general 'Life Support: what is it good for and which to use?' thread is a good idea. There are a couple of other LS mods right? Snacks & Biomass (not sure if this one is independent or an add-on to a mod)

I wouldn't consider BioMass to be a life support mod. It's meant to integrate into life support mods, but it's more of a ISRU mod in my mind. BioMass can stand on it's own, but was designed to complement TAC-LS.

[chrisl]

They may be a known issue or maybe it's just a problem with my install. The various converts will use up input resources like they are supposed to, whether focused on the craft or not. But they only seem to generate resources while focused. So, for instance, if you launch a rocket that has a fuel cell, O2 generator and CO2 scrubber, turn them all on then jump to KSC or another craft and advance time, when you return to the manned rocket your LH2 (for the fuel cell), LOX (for the O2 generator) and LithiumHydroxide canisters (for the CO2 scrubber) will all have depleted appropriately. But you won't have generated any ElectricCharge, crated any O2 or removed any CO2. Is there any way to correct this so that these converters work correctly even when not focused on a vessel?

[DBowman]

Here are some observations re my experience using TACLS under high wapr / not focus, I've also looked at the code in the past to see how it worked. I might misremember some details but I've certainly successfully used TACLS with generators etc.

The 'electricity does not generate' is stock behavior. TACLS has code to work around that problem (not requiring e under high warp/not focus). The stock workaround for when e gets consumed while it's not being generated is 'battery buffer'. If you add 'enough' batteries you will see as you 'warp up' that the buffer will be 'somewhat emptied', 'warp up' more and a bigger chunk will be emptied, if your buffer is 'big enough' you would have some left even at max warp.

High warp simulates time in 'bigger chunks' and the order it runs the simulated operations is 'random' so if things get run in a bad order some production might not happen because some required resource is not yet produced for that time chunk - and the same effect might happen for every chunk. All that means is to make sure you have 'enough' buffer space for even intermediate resources like waste. I think the time chunk at max warp is 'a day' (cant recall if 6h or 24h, I think 6h) so I always ensure 3-5 days 'resource buffer' and had no problems.

[Kyrt Malthorn]

Can anyone explain why TAC LS's so-called Sabatier CO2 and only outputs oxygen, and why water and energy are required as an input instead of being the product? Because according to online sources, the Sabatier process is:

CO₂ + 4 H₂ → CH₄ + 2 H₂O + energy ∆H = −165.0 kJ/mol

Or,

Input carbon dioxide and molecular hydrogen, out comes methane and water and the reaction releases energy.

Out of all the life support mods, I like TAC LS most for it's attention to realism. So it strikes me as a bit incongruent, that or I'm missing something.

[baldamundo]

You can download and install the required files and then create a cfg file and copy/paste that code for module manager. You can save the config in your TAC folder (ex: MM_TACL_Declutter.cfg) so module manager can apply the necessary adjustments.

So the procedural tanks have appeared in the VAB, like they should, put all the old tanks are still there. Have I done something wrong or does the declutter.cfg need updating?

[chrisl]

Here are some observations re my experience using TACLS under high wapr / not focus, I've also looked at the code in the past to see how it worked. I might misremember some details but I've certainly successfully used TACLS with generators etc.

The 'electricity does not generate' is stock behavior. TACLS has code to work around that problem (not requiring e under high warp/not focus). The stock workaround for when e gets consumed while it's not being generated is 'battery buffer'. If you add 'enough' batteries you will see as you 'warp up' that the buffer will be 'somewhat emptied', 'warp up' more and a bigger chunk will be emptied, if your buffer is 'big enough' you would have some left even at max warp.

High warp simulates time in 'bigger chunks' and the order it runs the simulated operations is 'random' so if things get run in a bad order some production might not happen because some required resource is not yet produced for that time chunk - and the same effect might happen for every chunk. All that means is to make sure you have 'enough' buffer space for even intermediate resources like waste. I think the time chunk at max warp is 'a day' (cant recall if 6h or 24h, I think 6h) so I always ensure 3-5 days 'resource buffer' and had no problems.

To be honest, ElectricCharge is just a minor concern for me. My game is in RO/RSS/RP-0 so everything uses a lot less power. My bigger concern is the CO2 scrubber and O2 generator. The whole point of those is not to need a huge buffer. I get that it's a stock issue but I also believe that some other mods have figured out workarounds and was just hoping TACLS had a similar work around that I just didn't have properly installed.

[DBowman]

chrisl - my experience has been the electricity battery buffer was much more intrusive than the few days waste resource buffer - did you find that helped?

[GorillaZilla]

I'd also add that this particular thread is probably not the best place to be having a debate over USI-LS vs TAC-LS, and to remind folks (in general) to be cool, given all of this stuff is provided to you for free, and as noted, rumors of this mod's deprecation appear greatly exaggerated.

Support the mods you like, quietly vote with your feet on the ones that do not suit your playstyle, but don't be jerky - whether that's hijacking another mod's thread to advertise other stuff, or talking trash about other mods (hint: Any sentence that starts with 'No offense...' usually means you should rethink that post...).

Sorry, might have been my fault as I was a little worried myself for some reason and voiced it. So aye, best get back on topic reporting issues with tac and possible fixxes ect...

I expect Taranis would appreciate it if folks got things back on topic

Sorry, might have been my fault as I was a little worried myself for some reason and voiced it. So aye, best get back on topic reporting issues with tac and possible fixxes ect...

[chrisl]

chrisl - my experience has been the electricity battery buffer was much more intrusive than the few days waste resource buffer - did you find that helped?

In RO/RSS/RP-0, ElectricCharge really isn't much of a concern. You tend to have a lot more electricity available and need a lot less. I only reported it to be thurough. I'm mostly concerned with the CO2 Scrubber and O2 Generator. If you include a large CO2 and/or O2 buffer, then there is really no need for the generators. And if you want to rely on the generators, you have to remain focused on your flight the entire time. I was just hoping TACLS might have a work around. As I mentioned in a previous post, I know a few other mods have work arounds for this problem (for example, RP-0 manages fuel "boil off").

[DBowman]

I think the need for a buffer only arises when you have 'generators feeding generators', e.g. kerbal -> CO2 -> scrubber. There is nothing controlling if scrubber or kerbal 'runs' first. For simple "boil off" it wouldn't arise, if they tried to simulate "no boil off" by LH2 -> boiler -> H2 -> cryo LH2 the problem would happen for RP-0 also I think.

How long are your trips? A 3 day buffer on a Mars mission doesn't seem like it should be a big issue.

[federicoaa]

In RO/RSS/RP-0, ElectricCharge really isn't much of a concern. You tend to have a lot more electricity available and need a lot less. I only reported it to be thurough. I'm mostly concerned with the CO2 Scrubber and O2 Generator. If you include a large CO2 and/or O2 buffer, then there is really no need for the generators. And if you want to rely on the generators, you have to remain focused on your flight the entire time. I was just hoping TACLS might have a work around. As I mentioned in a previous post, I know a few other mods have work arounds for this problem (for example, RP-0 manages fuel "boil off").

In my RO/RSS.RP-0 install, TACLS doesn't seem to bother if my craft doesn't have electricity, and no idea about the CO2 scrubbers.

I'm not sure if it is a bug or what but in the TACLS ingame window electric charge says xxx:infinite

I had a pod with food, water, and oxygen in orbit for a month, but without electricity and CO2 full, never had a problem.

[chrisl]

I think the need for a buffer only arises when you have 'generators feeding generators', e.g. kerbal -> CO2 -> scrubber. There is nothing controlling if scrubber or kerbal 'runs' first. For simple "boil off" it wouldn't arise, if they tried to simulate "no boil off" by LH2 -> boiler -> H2 -> cryo LH2 the problem would happen for RP-0 also I think.

How long are your trips? A 3 day buffer on a Mars mission doesn't seem like it should be a big issue.

In my RO/RSS.RP-0 install, TACLS doesn't seem to bother if my craft doesn't have electricity, and no idea about the CO2 scrubbers.

I'm not sure if it is a bug or what but in the TACLS ingame window electric charge says xxx:infinite

I had a pod with food, water, and oxygen in orbit for a month, but without electricity and CO2 full, never had a problem.

I have a contract that wants me to put the Gemini capsule (or equivalent) into orbit for 10 days. The Gemini comes with about a days worth of O2 and about a days worth of space for CO2. That's if you don't have the scrubber or the O2 generator running. If you turn the scrubber and O2 generator on, then you have enough LOX (for the O2 generator) and LithiumHydroxide (for the CO2 scrubber) for a 14+ day flight. Trouble is, if I go to the space center to advance time to complete my 10 day flight, when I return to capsule the CO2 storage is full, the O2 is effectively gone (TACLS says I have about 10 minutes left) and I've used up 10 days worth of LOX and LithiumHydroxide. My flight can continue without issue and I've never lost a Kerbal due to this "bug" but if these generators are going to use up resources when not focused on a craft, it would really be great if they could also generate the resources as well. I'm not sure how it would done in the code, but if there is no reliable way to both use and generate resources while not focused on a craft, couldn't you track the time away from the craft, then when you focus back on the craft have the generators "catch up"? I.E., track the time that you stop focusing on a craft. Then when you return focus to the craft, compare the tracked time with the current time and have the generators immediately use up and create the appropriate amount of resources based on the amount of time you were away from the craft. Does that make sense?

[DBowman]

chrisl - I'd not used 'the scrubber' before. Just now I thought to take a look at the parts you were using - are they part of TAC itself? cause I don't see em. I see Carbon Extractors, Carbon Recyclers, & Purifiers - but no scrubbers or O2 generators and LithiumHydroxide is not part of TAC resources.cfg.

I think the parts you are using are part of another mod that might be intended to inter-operate with TAC. The next step in trouble shooting would be to find which mod they are part of then look in the part .cfg files to see what is actually in there.

[chrisl]

chrisl - I'd not used 'the scrubber' before. Just now I thought to take a look at the parts you were using - are they part of TAC itself? cause I don't see em. I see Carbon Extractors, Carbon Recyclers, & Purifiers - but no scrubbers or O2 generators and LithiumHydroxide is not part of TAC resources.cfg.

I think the parts you are using are part of another mod that might be intended to inter-operate with TAC. The next step in trouble shooting would be to find which mod they are part of then look in the part .cfg files to see what is actually in there.

Technically the parts are from FASA/RO/RSS/RP-0 but the "generators" are the same "TacGenericConverter" that come with TACLS. They've just had their input and output resources adjusted for the mods. For example, the default Recycler_CarbonExtractor that comes with TACLS uses:

inputResources = CarbonDioxide, 0.001703210064733, ElectricCharge, 0.039783051310155

outputResources = Oxygen, 0.001713537562385, false, Waste, 0.000001209166498, true

In RO, this same part uses:

inputResources = CarbonDioxide, 0.0058912100, ElectricCharge, 0.010, LithiumHydroxide, 0.0000085683

outputResources = WasteWater, 0.003341591, true, Waste, 0.0000257297, true

Since it's the exact same "TacGenericConverter" module, I would expect it to work just like the default part. I've never tried a game with just TACLS and no other mods but I'm guessing that the problem with the input/output resources not being used/created while not focused on the craft would still exist. If you're using just TACLS, if you launch a manned capsule, turn on a generator, then jump to KSC and advance time for a few days, when you go back to the capsule, has the generator use and created resources correctly?

[DBowman]

In my experience yes it uses the resources correctly if you have a few days 'buffer' storage for any 'intermediate' resources. By intermediate I mean a resource produced by one generator and consumed by another ( that includes CO2 produced by the 'Kerbal generator' ).

You mentioned an oxygen generator also - whats that do?

To model a real LS you'd want to model the cabin atmosphere; CabinOxygen and StoredOxygen are not the same thing. It looks like the RO 'scrubber' doesn't really do that - it treats all CO2 as CabinCO2 - which is fine as long as there is not 'O2 from StoredCO2' generation somewhere - though maybe humans don't mind no CO2 at all so maybe it's fine anyway.

I guess RO just uses TAC Oxygen resource as CabinO2+StoredO2 & CO2 as CabinCO2+StoredCO2? I think the TAC generators couldn't do a realistic cabin atmosphere since you should model the fixed volume and the partial pressures of the gases to handle O2->CO2 & scrub & top up O2 to optimal partial pressure. I suppose that just consuming O2 with kerbals and CO2 with scrubber makes a fair simplification. ( scrubber does CO2 -> Waste & magics the breathing humidity to waste water - right? )

Edited October 9, 2015 by DBowman

[chrisl]

In my experience yes it uses the resources correctly if you have a few days 'buffer' storage for any 'intermediate' resources. By intermediate I mean a resource produced by one generator and consumed by another ( that includes CO2 produced by the 'Kerbal generator' ).

You mentioned an oxygen generator also - whats that do?

To model a real LS you'd want to model the cabin atmosphere; CabinOxygen and StoredOxygen are not the same thing. It looks like the RO 'scrubber' doesn't really do that - it treats all CO2 as CabinCO2 - which is fine as long as there is not 'O2 from StoredCO2' generation somewhere - though maybe humans don't mind no CO2 at all so maybe it's fine anyway.

I guess RO just uses TAC Oxygen resource as CabinO2+StoredO2 & CO2 as CabinCO2+StoredCO2? I think the TAC generators couldn't do a realistic cabin atmosphere since you should model the fixed volume and the partial pressures of the gases to handle O2->CO2 & scrub & top up O2 to optimal partial pressure. I suppose that just consuming O2 with kerbals and CO2 with scrubber makes a fair simplification. ( scrubber does CO2 -> Waste & magics the breathing humidity to waste water - right? )

These are Gemini and Apollo era life support systems I'm working with. I don't think there is a "StoredCO2" in these cases. CO2 was cleaned out of the air using Lithium Hydroxide canisters which would get saturated with CO2 and would then be replaced with fresh canisters. So the CO2 scrubber used in RO (at least at this stage) only converts CO2 and LithiumHydroxide into Waste Water and Waste.

As for the "O2 Generator" the Gemini and Apollo capsules in RO have LqdOxygen tanks. The "TacGenericConverter" is setup so that it takes LqdOxygen and converts it into O2.

They also have Fuel Cells which again use the "TacGenericConverter" to convert LqdHydrogen into Electricity.

In all three cases, RO is just using the existing "TacGenericConverter" which is why I assumed the problem was with the converter itself. All three have the same basic issue: they'll use or create some of the resources but not others while not focused on the craft. Everything works perfectly (from what I've seen so far, anyway) while you're focused on a craft. It's only when you switch to another craft or back to KSC, then advance time, that the converter seems to have an issue.

I should point out, I'm not losing Kerbals due to this issue. So far (even after a 21 earth day trip) my O2 has never dropped below about 20 minutes for the full crew, and my CO2 has never filled up to lethal capacity. So it's possible the buffer you're recommending is keeping my kerbals functioning (12hrs O2 and CO2 is 2 kerbal says worth). Doesn't change the fact that the "TacGenericConverter" isn't properly managing it's input/output resources when not focused on a craft. If there's nothing that can be done to resolve that, no biggie. I was just hoping that some other system might help resolve the issue. For instance, as I understand it, RO/RP-0 handles fuel boil off when not focused on a craft by taking the fuel when you focus back on the craft. I.E., if you return to KSC and advance time for 24hrs then switch back to the craft, the boil off system chews up 24 hours worth of boil off while the craft is loading. I don't know exactly how that is accomplished and I may not be understanding the process exactly (I didn't write it after all ) but figured if that system basically works, it might be worth looking at for the TacGenericConverter.

[damerell]

I have a contract that wants me to put the Gemini capsule (or equivalent) into orbit for 10 days. The Gemini comes with about a days worth of O2 and about a days worth of space for CO2. That's if you don't have the scrubber or the O2 generator running. If you turn the scrubber and O2 generator on, then you have enough LOX (for the O2 generator) and LithiumHydroxide (for the CO2 scrubber) for a 14+ day flight. Trouble is, if I go to the space center to advance time to complete my 10 day flight, when I return to capsule the CO2 storage is full, the O2 is effectively gone (TACLS says I have about 10 minutes left) and I've used up 10 days worth of LOX and LithiumHydroxide. My flight can continue without issue and I've never lost a Kerbal due to this "bug" but if these generators are going to use up resources when not focused on a craft, it would really be great if they could also generate the resources as well.

They must have generated considerable quantities of the resources, or your kerbals would be dead from lack of oxygen nine times over. Are you sure you have not used up 9 days worth of LOX? *

TACLS recyclers already are programmed to "catch up" as you requested, something mentioned in the documentation.

I don't understand why you don't come back to full oxygen and empty CO2, but I'm not an expert on the TACLS code.

* If your answer to this is "yes" please produce figures.

[chrisl]

They must have generated considerable quantities of the resources, or your kerbals would be dead from lack of oxygen nine times over. Are you sure you have not used up 9 days worth of LOX? *

TACLS recyclers already are programmed to "catch up" as you requested, something mentioned in the documentation.

I don't understand why you don't come back to full oxygen and empty CO2, but I'm not an expert on the TACLS code.

* If your answer to this is "yes" please produce figures.

That particular flight is not longer up but I have a new 3 man Apollo flight in orbit for a 16 day flight. I can't fast forward time for 16 days while focused on the capsule without crashing the game (too close to max memory usage on 32bit windows client) but here is what I can do. My resources/stats at the start of this test are as follow:

T+ 04:51:20, 2431 O2, 201 CO2, 242 Water, 2.99 Waste Water, 365 Food, 1.03 Waste, 42.98 LithiumHydroxide, 261 LqdOxygen, 355 LdqHydrogen

While focused on the craft, I advance time for 2 days and have the following:

T+ 2d,04:51:32, 2448 O2, 216 CO2, 244 Water, 32.54 Waste Water, 330 Food, 24.17 Waste, 36.82 LithiumHydroxide, 220 LqdOxygen, 297 LdqHydrogen

Next, I reload my save, returning to the first set of values. Now if I go to KSC and advance time for 2 days, then return to the craft, I have the following resources:

T+ 2d, 04:51:39, 888 O2, 767 CO2, 232 Water, 32.54 Waste Water, 330 Food, 10.55 Waste, 41.03 LithiumHydroxide, 223 LqdOxygen, 304 LdqHydrogen

In both of the above, I had the CO2 scrubber, LOX-O2 generator and Fuel Cell running for the entire test. Just so you don't have to look them up, below I've included the Input/output values for each of the generators. Whether I advance time at KSC or while focused on the craft, the best result would be for the amount of resources used and created by these generators to be basically the same. But as you can see, that is definitely not happening and there doesn't appear to be any kind of "catch up" taking place.

CO2 Scrubber

conversionRate = 3.0

inputResources = CarbonDioxide, 0.0058912100, ElectricCharge, 0.010, LithiumHydroxide, 0.00001189

outputResources = Waste, 0.00003847, false

Fuel Cell

conversionRate = 1.0

inputResources = LqdHydrogen, 0.000296379, LqdOxygen, 0.000210317

outputResources = Water, 0.000261, true, ElectricCharge, 2.2, true

LOX-O2

conversionRate = 3.0

inputResources = LqdOxygen, 0.0000084787, ElectricCharge, 0.025

outputResources = Oxygen, 0.006883126, false