[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

[Kethevin]

Can somebody please run me through step by step exactly how i can add this to the tech tree?

There are two ways, one easier than the other of course. The most tedious method is to edit all the part .cfg files with notepad and enter the following:

techRequired = Survivability

entryCost = 2500

All of those part files are located in .../GameData/TacLifeSupport/Parts

The easier method, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, requires you have a copy of the ModuleManager.dll file somewhere in the /GameData folder.

Then just create a .cfg folder and name it something like TACfix, (create a regular .txt file and change the .txt to .cfg). Inside enter all the parts with the above info, in the format of:

@PART[Food]

{

techRequired = Survivability

entryCost = 2500

}

@PART[FoodLarge]

{

techRequired = Survivability

entryCost = 2500

}

And continue with all other parts, placing each part name inside the [ ] exactly how they are labeled within the part folder listed above.

[Hogdriver]

Any idea why this mod won't let me timewarp at 100000x? :-)

[Laphtiya]

There are two ways, one easier than the other of course. The most tedious method is to edit all the part .cfg files with notepad and enter the following:

techRequired = Survivability

entryCost = 2500

All of those part files are located in .../GameData/TacLifeSupport/Parts

Tried this and the TACfix file, did not work for me. Any suggestions?

[DennyTX]

survivability and Survivability. here we have a great difference at point of view by PC. first working for me.

[Eicher]

Tried this and the TACfix file, did not work for me. Any suggestions?

I had similar issue, I tried to do it the way others have:

@PART[Food]

{

TechRequired = survivability

entryCost = 2800

}

@PART[FoodLarge]

{

TechRequired = survivability

entryCost = 2800

}

But I only found out that adding the two lines:

TechRequired = survivability

entryCost = 2800

I added these two lines under each item here:

// --- editor parameters ---

TechRequired = survivability

entryCost = 2800

cost = 340

category = Utility

subcategory = 0

title = Food Container

manufacturer = Thunder Aerospace Corporation

description = A 1.25-meter container full of Food supplies.

The main issue was/is that TechRequired and survivability is CASE SENSITIVE (I went and copied two lines from the radial parachute code and it works perfect now. Hope this explains well, not sure why the other way did not work (the @PART one)

[Tindahbawx]

I had similar issue, I tried to do it the way others have:

But I only found out that adding the two lines:

I added these two lines under each item here:

The main issue was/is that TechRequired and survivability is CASE SENSITIVE (I went and copied two lines from the radial parachute code and it works perfect now. Hope this explains well, not sure why the other way did not work (the @PART one)

I've went ahead and done that for each of the Parts:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8u8cgt2llq8ecqj/TAC.zip

You want to extract that .zip directly into \KSP\GameData\TacLifeSupport\Parts\LifeSupportContainers folder, overwriting the original files.

If you want to change their location on the tech tree, just open each .cfg file that is there. Lines 28 - 30 read:

// --- editor parameters ---

TechRequired = survivability

entryCost = 2800

To changes the tech level required, just substitute "survivability" with whatever tech level suits. In this case, capatilisation is important!

Hope this is helpful to someone!

[WafflesToo]

Interesting... I just started a new playthrough too with the RemoteTech and Kethane mods, I'm giving serious thought to adding this one too (give my Pelican SSTO more to do once the satellites are launched).

How close are you to getting the recyclers working? Be a neat mission delivering these new parts to the station.

[cyberKerb]

TaranisElsu, thanks for your efforts with this mod. I downloaded it from spaceport earlier this week and I've had a quick couple of orbits in a separate test game to try it out and I like it a lot so far. I read all the previous pages in this thread and found that I also like your focus on game play for this life support mod. I think I have a similar view that you do that there would not be any point to having a mission that you don't re-supply every now and then. And that prompts planning and building more rockets for mission specific reasons, which I like.

I had a "maths" question related to your previous post on consumption rates for the various resources. I found in my game that the three resources are all being consumed at the same rate. Is this correct at this point of the mod development? Were you going to keep the same/similar consumptions for all three resources for game play simplification or was this something you were looking to modify later on? I checked the life support cfg file you mentioned below and found the following settings:

Copy-pasted from: {KSP}/GameData/TacLifeSupport/PluginData/TacLifeSupport/LifeSupport.cfg

FoodConsumptionRate = 1.15740740740741E-05

WaterConsumptionRate = 1.15740740740741E-05

OxygenConsumptionRate = 1.15740740740741E-05

I multiplied the above by 60sec * 60min * 24hr and ended back at a 1 kilo/day consumption figure for all resources.

I then also saw the below reference in the same file:

DefaultResourceAmount = 259200

This seems to be where the starting resources of 3 days for command modules comes from.

Is there a way to give different starting amounts for each of the separate resources?

Most of the numbers are customizable by changing the config file:

{KSP}/GameData/TacLifeSupport/PluginData/TacLifeSupport/LifeSupport.cfg

*snip*

The math: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aioc9ek3XAvwdGNsRlh3OVhlbTFBR3M4RW0zLUNTRFE&usp=sharing

I was looking to modify the number of units listed under the parts to reflect the size container that is correctly available, but I first wanted to see what kind of duration I'd get using TaranisElsu different consumption rate figures for each of the 3 resources mentioned in the above Google Doc. (otherwise why list them as separate resources if they are all the same rate?)

Google Doc: The following rates are units of kg/Kerbin day

Food=0.079

Water=0.449

Oxygen=0.107

I re-scaled the above for comparison against the existing consumption so the largest resource (water) remained the 1 unit baseline. That way, the MOST I'd have to refill would be the same as the mod is packaged now.

Food=0.176

Water=1

Oxygen=0.238

I checked these against the current canister loads and got the following supply duration for each (Assumed 3 Kerbal consumption):

Standard 3 Kerbal capsule

Food: 17 days, 1 hrs

Water: 3 days

Oxygen: 12 days, 14 hrs

Small Canister (1 Resource) / Small Support Canister (All 3 Resources)

Food: 56 days, 19 hrs / 18 days, 22 hrs

Water: 10 days, 0 hrs / 3 days, 8 hrs

Oxygen: 42 days, 0 hrs / 14 days, 0 hrs

Medium Canister (1 Resource) / Medium Support Canister (All 3 Resources)

Food: 454 days, 13 hrs / 151 days, 12 hrs

Water: 80 days, 0 hrs / 26 days, 16 hrs

Oxygen: 336 days, 3 hrs / 112 days, 1 hrs

Large Canister (1 Resource) / Large Support Canister (All 3 Resources)

Food: 3636 days, 8 hrs / 1212 days, 2 hrs

Water: 640 days, 0 hrs / 213 days, 8 hrs

Oxygen: 2689 days, 1 hrs / 896 days, 8 hrs

I saw that you have a to-do item to resize the tanks as you mentioned a while back, but way some of those tanks are going to be massive!

Lastly question: regarding the stopping of Warp at low (<10%) and Critical (0%). Is it possible to make this customizable to allow a message to appear so there is enough time to organize a mission to send supplies to the "wessel" running out of supplies?

[minotard1]

Awesome mod that adds complexity, I like it.

One problem I have is the mod will slow down attempts to time warp above 1000x. (I also have deadly re-entry (ver 2), Mechjeb, and Interstellar installed, but the problem only occurs when TAC Life Support is active on manned missions). Every time I increase warp past 1000x the game knocks me back to 1000x.

Any work around for this or something I'm doing wrong? Pic of ship included for reference.

[WafflesToo]

TaranisElsu, thanks for your efforts with this mod. I downloaded it from spaceport earlier this week and I've had a quick couple of orbits in a separate test game to try it out and I like it a lot so far. I read all the previous pages in this thread and found that I also like your focus on game play for this life support mod. I think I have a similar view that you do that there would not be any point to having a mission that you don't re-supply every now and then. And that prompts planning and building more rockets for mission specific reasons, which I like.

I had a "maths" question related to your previous post on consumption rates for the various resources. I found in my game that the three resources are all being consumed at the same rate. Is this correct at this point of the mod development? Were you going to keep the same/similar consumptions for all three resources for game play simplification or was this something you were looking to modify later on? I checked the life support cfg file you mentioned below and found the following settings:

Copy-pasted from: {KSP}/GameData/TacLifeSupport/PluginData/TacLifeSupport/LifeSupport.cfg

FoodConsumptionRate = 1.15740740740741E-05

WaterConsumptionRate = 1.15740740740741E-05

OxygenConsumptionRate = 1.15740740740741E-05

I multiplied the above by 60sec * 60min * 24hr and ended back at a 1 kilo/day consumption figure for all resources.

I then also saw the below reference in the same file:

DefaultResourceAmount = 259200

This seems to be where the starting resources of 3 days for command modules comes from.

Is there a way to give different starting amounts for each of the separate resources?

I was looking to modify the number of units listed under the parts to reflect the size container that is correctly available, but I first wanted to see what kind of duration I'd get using TaranisElsu different consumption rate figures for each of the 3 resources mentioned in the above Google Doc. (otherwise why list them as separate resources if they are all the same rate?)

Google Doc: The following rates are units of kg/Kerbin day

Food=0.079

Water=0.449

Oxygen=0.107

I re-scaled the above for comparison against the existing consumption so the largest resource (water) remained the 1 unit baseline. That way, the MOST I'd have to refill would be the same as the mod is packaged now.

Food=0.176

Water=1

Oxygen=0.238

I checked these against the current canister loads and got the following supply duration for each (Assumed 3 Kerbal consumption):

Standard 3 Kerbal capsule

Food: 17 days, 1 hrs

Water: 3 days

Oxygen: 12 days, 14 hrs

Small Canister (1 Resource) / Small Support Canister (All 3 Resources)

Food: 56 days, 19 hrs / 18 days, 22 hrs

Water: 10 days, 0 hrs / 3 days, 8 hrs

Oxygen: 42 days, 0 hrs / 14 days, 0 hrs

Medium Canister (1 Resource) / Medium Support Canister (All 3 Resources)

Food: 454 days, 13 hrs / 151 days, 12 hrs

Water: 80 days, 0 hrs / 26 days, 16 hrs

Oxygen: 336 days, 3 hrs / 112 days, 1 hrs

Large Canister (1 Resource) / Large Support Canister (All 3 Resources)

Food: 3636 days, 8 hrs / 1212 days, 2 hrs

Water: 640 days, 0 hrs / 213 days, 8 hrs

Oxygen: 2689 days, 1 hrs / 896 days, 8 hrs

I saw that you have a to-do item to resize the tanks as you mentioned a while back, but way some of those tanks are going to be massive!

Lastly question: regarding the stopping of Warp at low (<10%) and Critical (0%). Is it possible to make this customizable to allow a message to appear so there is enough time to organize a mission to send supplies to the "wessel" running out of supplies?

I kind of had the same thought the other day myself. I think the reason behind the different supplies is the OP eventually wants to add both recyclers and planet-specific resource harvesting (such as air and water from Laythe, maybe just water from Vall, etc.)

All the same, I think you're onto something. I might play with the *.cfg later and see how it goes.

EDIT: Just had a thought; maybe the support cans should have the quantities of reach supply shifted around so all three run out at the same time? Just a thought.

Edited November 14, 2013 by WafflesToo
can management

[regex]

This seems to be where the starting resources of 3 days for command modules comes from.

Is there a way to give different starting amounts for each of the separate resources?

I use a ModuleManager script to change the values per capsule. For instance, the small cone has one Kerbal-day, the small lander has three Kerbal-days, the three-man capsule has three Kerbal-days, etc... E: Here it is:

@PART[mk1pod] // 1 Kerbal-day
{
        MODULE
        {
                name = LifeSupportModule
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Food_TAC
                amount = 1
                maxAmount = 1
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Water_TAC
                amount = 1
                maxAmount = 1
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Oxygen_TAC
                amount = 1
                maxAmount = 1
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = CO2_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 1
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Waste_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 1
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = WasteWater_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 1
        }
}

@PART[Mark1-2Pod] // 9 Kerbal-days
{
        MODULE
        {
                name = LifeSupportModule
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Food_TAC
                amount = 9
                maxAmount = 9
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Water_TAC
                amount = 9
                maxAmount = 9
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Oxygen_TAC
                amount = 9
                maxAmount = 9
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = CO2_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 9
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Waste_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 9
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = WasteWater_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 9
        }
}

@PART[crewCabin] // 200 Kerbal-days
{
        MODULE
        {
                name = LifeSupportModule
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Food_TAC
                amount = 200
                maxAmount = 200
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Water_TAC
                amount = 200
                maxAmount = 200
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Oxygen_TAC
                amount = 200
                maxAmount = 200
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = CO2_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 200
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Waste_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 200
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = WasteWater_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 200
        }
}

@PART[landerCabinSmall] // 3 Kerbal-days
{
        MODULE
        {
                name = LifeSupportModule
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Food_TAC
                amount = 3
                maxAmount = 3
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Water_TAC
                amount = 3
                maxAmount = 3
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Oxygen_TAC
                amount = 3
                maxAmount = 3
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = CO2_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 3
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Waste_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 3
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = WasteWater_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 3
        }
}

@PART[cupola] // 5 Kerbal-days
{
        MODULE
        {
                name = LifeSupportModule
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Food_TAC
                amount = 5
                maxAmount = 5
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Water_TAC
                amount = 5
                maxAmount = 5
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Oxygen_TAC
                amount = 5
                maxAmount = 5
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = CO2_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 5
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Waste_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 5
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = WasteWater_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 5
        }
}

@PART[Mark1Cockpit] // 1 Kerbal-day
{
        MODULE
        {
                name = LifeSupportModule
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Food_TAC
                amount = 1
                maxAmount = 1
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Water_TAC
                amount = 1
                maxAmount = 1
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Oxygen_TAC
                amount = 1
                maxAmount = 1
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = CO2_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 1
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Waste_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 1
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = WasteWater_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 1
        }
}

@PART[Mark2Cockpit] // 1 Kerbal-day
{
        MODULE
        {
                name = LifeSupportModule
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Food_TAC
                amount = 1
                maxAmount = 1
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Water_TAC
                amount = 1
                maxAmount = 1
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Oxygen_TAC
                amount = 1
                maxAmount = 1
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = CO2_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 1
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Waste_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 1
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = WasteWater_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 1
        }
}

@PART[mark3Cockpit] // 9 Kerbal-days
{
        MODULE
        {
                name = LifeSupportModule
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Food_TAC
                amount = 9
                maxAmount = 9
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Water_TAC
                amount = 9
                maxAmount = 9
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Oxygen_TAC
                amount = 9
                maxAmount = 9
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = CO2_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 9
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Waste_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 9
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = WasteWater_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 9
        }
}

@PART[mk2LanderCabin] // 10 Kerbal-days
{
        MODULE
        {
                name = LifeSupportModule
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Food_TAC
                amount = 10
                maxAmount = 10
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Water_TAC
                amount = 10
                maxAmount = 10
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Oxygen_TAC
                amount = 10
                maxAmount = 10
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = CO2_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 10
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = Waste_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 10
        }
        RESOURCE
        {
                name = WasteWater_TAC
                amount = 0
                maxAmount = 10
        }
}

I've also done some further texture work re-purposing other modder's tanks into TAC LS containers (zzz's incredible boxes and Nertea's xenon tanks). I'd be happy to post those and the ModuleManager scripts as well, but I'll need to check licenses.

E: Here are the scripts for zzz's boxes. The black box is unused.

@PART[B_green]
{
	@title = LSBOX COM
	@description = A combined storage tank in box form to help with the proper care and maintenance of Kerbals in flight.  Contains a well-balanced mixture of goods for all Kerbal life support needs.
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Food_TAC
		amount = 280
		maxAmount = 280
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Water_TAC
		amount = 280
		maxAmount = 280
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Oxygen_TAC
		amount = 280
		maxAmount = 280
	}
}

@PART[B_green_flat]
{
	@title = LSSBX COM
	@description = A small combined storage tank in box form to help with the proper care and maintenance of Kerbals in flight.  Contains a well-balanced mixture of goods for all Kerbal life support needs.
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Food_TAC
		amount = 140
		maxAmount = 140
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Water_TAC
		amount = 140
		maxAmount = 140
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Oxygen_TAC
		amount = 140
		maxAmount = 140
	}
}

@PART[B_green_long]
{
	@title = LSLBX COM
	@description = A large combined storage tank in box form to help with the proper care and maintenance of Kerbals in flight.  Contains a well-balanced mixture of goods for all Kerbal life support needs.
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Food_TAC
		amount = 560
		maxAmount = 560
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Water_TAC
		amount = 560
		maxAmount = 560
	}
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Oxygen_TAC
		amount = 560
		maxAmount = 560
	}
}

@PART[B_blue]
{
	@title = LSBOX H2O
	@description = A water storage tank in box form to help with the proper care and maintenance of Kerbals in flight.
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Water_TAC
		amount = 840
		maxAmount = 840
	}
}

@PART[B_blue_flat]
{
	@title = LSSBX H2O
	@description = A small water storage tank in box form to help with the proper care and maintenance of Kerbals in flight.
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Water_TAC
		amount = 420
		maxAmount = 420
	}
}

@PART[B_blue_long]
{
	@title = LSLBX H2O
	@description = A large water storage tank in box form to help with the proper care and maintenance of Kerbals in flight.
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Water_TAC
		amount = 1680
		maxAmount = 1680
	}
}

@PART[B_red]
{
	@title = LSBOX SNK
	@description = A snack storage box to help with the proper care and maintenance of Kerbals in flight.
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Food_TAC
		amount = 840
		maxAmount = 840
	}
}

@PART[B_red_flat]
{
	@title = LSSBX SNK
	@description = A small snack storage box to help with the proper care and maintenance of Kerbals in flight.
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Food_TAC
		amount = 420
		maxAmount = 420
	}
}

@PART[B_red_long]
{
	@title = LSLBX SNK
	@description = A large snack storage box to help with the proper care and maintenance of Kerbals in flight.
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Food_TAC
		amount = 1680
		maxAmount = 1680
	}
}

@PART[B_white]
{
	@title = LSBOX O2
	@description = A oxygen storage tank in box form to help with the proper care and maintenance of Kerbals in flight.
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Oxygen_TAC
		amount = 840
		maxAmount = 840
	}
}

@PART[B_white_flat]
{
	@title = LSSBX O2
	@description = A small oxygen storage tank in box form to help with the proper care and maintenance of Kerbals in flight.
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Oxygen_TAC
		amount = 420
		maxAmount = 420
	}
}

@PART[B_white_long]
{
	@title = LSLBX O2
	@description = A large oxygen storage tank in box form to help with the proper care and maintenance of Kerbals in flight.
	RESOURCE
	{
		name = Oxygen_TAC
		amount = 1680
		maxAmount = 1680
	}
}

I was looking to modify the number of units listed under the parts to reflect the size container that is correctly available, but I first wanted to see what kind of duration I'd get using TaranisElsu different consumption rate figures for each of the 3 resources mentioned in the above Google Doc. (otherwise why list them as separate resources if they are all the same rate?)

Just remember that, at the end of the day, it's easier for the player to see that a Kerbal uses one unit of any given resource per day (aside from ElectricCharge, but the usage rate is so much higher). This makes it much easier to gauge when I have to send a resupply mission: "Ten units of food left in that ship, I need to get to them in ten days". Each resource also has a different mass, so a given quantity of water will mass different than a given quantity of food. That means that containers that have the same amount of a resource (100 food vs. 100 water) will have different masses.

Edited November 15, 2013 by regex

[cyberKerb]

Awesome mod that adds complexity, I like it.

One problem I have is the mod will slow down attempts to time warp above 1000x. (I also have deadly re-entry (ver 2), Mechjeb, and Interstellar installed, but the problem only occurs when TAC Life Support is active on manned missions). Every time I increase warp past 1000x the game knocks me back to 1000x.

Any work around for this or something I'm doing wrong? Pic of ship included for reference.

I think it was mentioned earlier in the thread, but in my testing of the mod with different consumption rates, I needed higher warps.

For my initial test rig, I just had a three kerbal capsule, for a total of 150 electrical charge. Checking the LS window it said that this gave me 36mins of electricity. This gave a consumption/second of 0.06944. I Multiplied that by the warp (1000x) and you have a draw of 69.44444 per (warp)second.

Instead, I multiplied the consumption/second by the high warp of 10,000x and I got a draw of 694.44. Without a battery to cover that big a draw in the 10,000x "second", it drops back to ensure you are NOT left with dead kerbals due to the TAC_LS logic.

I got around the warp drop it by adding 2x Z-400 batteries to give me a total charge of 950(400ea + 150 for the command module), which is above the 694 charge draw per 10,000x second warp. This gave me about a second at the 10,000 warp before it drops back.

Now, I can't just add a stack of batteries, as the craft still has an issue of the huge power draw each 10,000 "ticks". So I also added 1 x PB-NUK Thermo Electric Generator (under utility, middle col, third row down for a stock KSP installation) and all good at 10,000 warp.

As the basic rig I used had over 694 electrical charge in the system for each tick of 10,000x second warp, so no need for the TAC_LS to save me via an auto kick down of the warp rate. Also, because the PB-NUK still generates a charge even when not in view of the sun, it was fine for the entire duration of the Kerbal night. If I relied on any number of solar panels, it would stop generating power at night and it would drop from the full change of 950 to 694 and kick my warp down a notch.

To work out why it gets knocked back to 1000x for your specific craft, check what your Electrical consumption is at 1000x speed (or whatever the highest speed you can get to) It will probably be different to what I have listed above as you might be using a different capsule and other items that have an electrical requirement (eg ASAS, lights, comm dishes, science instruments, etc...)

If you got the number while at 1000x warp, multiply that number by an additional 100 and that's how much electrical charge you need on your craft (at a minimum) to avoid the warp rate drop. Just add some batteries to get above that number (shouldn't be many)

If you are relying on solar, it my still drop back on long journeys if your craft passes through the shadow of a planet or moon and you have no other power generation option. So in this case, a PB-NUK might be a good back up power if you can afford the the extra weight. (Note regarding weight: 1 x PB-NUK = 4 x Small TAC Life support canister)

I hope my maths is right for all the above - let me know if I stuffed up something

Edited November 15, 2013 by wile1411
grammer, spacing so it wasn't so dense

[trekkie_]

how about something like this as a model replacement....

-

water and o2/food tanks. sunlight (or artificial electrical light, to a lesser degree) hitting plants produce food and air, while uptaking water. a third module could be the actual life support hardware that recycles the air and water and food waste. it could also simulate diminishing returns.

Edited November 15, 2013 by trekkie_

[cyberKerb]

I use a ModuleManager script to change the values per capsule. For instance, the small cone has one Kerbal-day, the small lander has three Kerbal-days, the three-man capsule has three Kerbal-days, etc... E: Here it is:

*snip*

Fantastic! Thanks for that. I'll need to look around the forums to see how I use a ModuleManager script. I've been doing all my changes to this mod via the individual cfg files

I've also done some further texture work re-purposing other modder's tanks into TAC LS containers (zzz's incredible boxes and the Future Propulsion author's xenon tanks). I'd be happy to post those and the ModuleManager scripts as well, but I'll need to check licenses.

Any chance you might take a stab at replicating your re-textures design for the Hexcan modules? (Love your work on those re-textures BTW) They are very Kerbal-like and the symbols were a nice design.

Just remember that, at the end of the day, it's easier for the player to see that a Kerbal uses one unit of any given resource per day (aside from ElectricCharge, but the usage rate is so much higher). This makes it much easier to gauge when I have to send a resupply mission: "Ten units of food left in that ship, I need to get to them in ten days".

I'd almost agree with the above as it sounds like the simplest is the best. Only thing is that with my limited use, I've never thought about number of "units" left when planning a resupply mission. I've only switched to the craft and checked the Life support screen to see how many "days" are left.

For my own customization, I do plan to modify the size of items in the capsules. However, I'm going to avoid balancing the resource canisters to have same duration for all resources at it is now. (ie sml 30dy / med 240dy / lge 1920dy). Otherwise that would be the same as 1 unit per day that it is now and all I've done is add confusing numbers, all to end up at the same result. I still wonder what the OP ideas on this would be.

I tried messing with the consumption numbers I used in the prev post (F=0.176, W=1, O=0.238) to make a couple of wild guesses on capsule contents duration. But I didn't like where my maths was taking me.

If I change my smalls canisters resources to (F=13.2, W=30, O=9.52) it game me (75 days, 30 days, 40 days) for 1 kerbal. There is a LOT of imagination in those numbers as is in the reason for the canisters being the same size for all resources. i.e. Using the water sized box, food takes up space due to the specific dietary requirements and the oxygen probably has a lot of metal safety equipment to keep it compressed.

*shrug* I dunno, I'm sure the OP, who is far more talented than my wild guesses (he seems to do actual research!) will have better numbers that relate better to mission lengths and capsule sizes. Using those numbers I made up, the large capsule has a ridiculous duration of 4800 days for 1 Kerbal. I found it weird to do a resupply run and only taking one capsule. (I've never had game go that long without a new version of the game release killing my save game.)

Each resource also has a different mass, so a given quantity of water will mass different than a given quantity of food. That means that containers that have the same amount of a resource (100 food vs. 100 water) will have different masses.

I'm not going to modify mass and I figure the OP numbers are all good and sometime in the future, they might affect their decision to scale the canister models contents or model size or both.

[regex]

Any chance you might take a stab at replicating your re-textures design for the Hexcan modules? (Love your work on those re-textures BTW) They are very Kerbal-like and the symbols were a nice design.

I'm not very fond of the HexCans (not because they're poor, mind you) so that means that the chances of me getting around to doing that are slim. I've also redone the 1.25m stock RCS tank, but that needs some alignment fixes and a minor color tweak. Again, I don't use them (I'm quite attached to my Near Future Propulsion re-textures and zzz's boxes right now) so there isn't a lot of impetus. Maybe in the next week or two I'll make some time.

If I change my smalls canisters resources to (F=13.2, W=30, O=9.52) it game me (75 days, 30 days, 40 days) for 1 kerbal. There is a LOT of imagination in those numbers as is in the reason for the canisters being the same size for all resources. i.e. Using the water sized box, food takes up space due to the specific dietary requirements and the oxygen probably has a lot of metal safety equipment to keep it compressed.

TaranisElsu's values are based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_support_system#Human_physiological_and_metabolic_needs (I asked him because I was thinking of writing an LS mod based on those values), with consumption rates divided in half because Kerbals are only 1 meter tall. You could make a case where they would require even less, but their enormous nuggets indicate an enormous brain, which needs a lot of fuel. YMMV on the realism there...

As far as mass and such go, I assign values to my containers based on the 1 unit == 1 Kerbal day of that unit and let the game figure out how much that resource masses (it bases that on the resource definition config file). Food, water, and O2 are surprisingly light, all things considered, especially when your mod is based on a Kerbal needing 2.5kg of supplies per 24 hours.

[Greezy]

Awesome mod! Eagerly anticipating greenhouse and recycling modules. You are also leaning toward some in-situ resource utilization that would fill a gap between, and form an awesome triad with, Kethane and Extraplanetary Launchpads.

I have always found it interesting that a life support system, and especially space-based agriculture, must be budgeted on a molecular and elemental level.

- air filter: IntakeAir --> O2, only if the atmosphere contains oxygen

- air intake that collects CO2 from non-oxygen containing atmospheres? But note that just because an atmosphere does not contain oxygen, that does not mean that it is rich in CO2.

- water scoop for collecting water from a lake or ocean

- drill/mine for O2, water, fertilizer/nitrates

The gas and liquid inputs (and Kethane) can be handled by the same Separation Facility part, call it a combo of pumps, compressors, condensers, centrifuges, boilers, fractional distillation, more compressors condensers and pumps, and out to storage tanks. This is a take-what-you-get situation, with no selectivity except what to dump or not, but also not requiring other input reactants or chemical processes. It all depends on the yet undefined composition of the local input resources, and of course requires creating some other new resources, as getting mostly elemental with it is the best way.

Basic resources:

Nitrogen, abundant atmospheric gas, life support applications in both cabin pressurization, and as a fertilizer component.

Helium, rare but a consumable and critical (and supercritical!) element of both spacecraft propulsion and life support.

Methane, could be used as-is for fuel in a Methane burning engine, or split into Hydrogen and Carbon

Hydrogen, convert into LiquidFuel, or use a Fuel Cell part for Hydrogen + Oxygen -> Water + ElectricCharge

Greywater, replacement name for WasteWater, can be used as greenhouse input, or filtered into Water, Waste, and maybe small amounts other raw bio resources

Complex resources, here is where it gets really interesting and the scope-creep goes off the chart:

Every biome would have the composition of their local resources uniquely defined, ie

LaytheAirUpper: 90% N, 4% O, 1% CO2, 1% He, 4% disregarded (Argon etc..)

LaytheAirLower: 75% N, 12% O, 3%, CO2, 2% CH4, 1% H2O, 7% disregarded

LaytheAirSurface: etc

LaytheWater: 85% H2O, 5% CH4, 5% Kethane, 5% disregarded (salt...)

LaytheKethane: we know it has Xenon in it, maybe some CH4, He, and the FairyDust that gives Kethane its magical properties

LaytheOre: Oxygen is an abundant byproduct of ore refinement as the useful metal is typically bound up in oxides.

- oxygen extractor: Oxidizer, electricity --> oxygen (someone could also make an Oxygen->Oxidizer converter, but that has little to do with life support)

This is more a Real Fuels issue as to what Oxidizer actually is and if its breathable or not. It would probably be a N + O -> nitrogen tetroxide, and might as well combine it with:

- air recycler: CO2, electricity --> oxygen, waste

- water purifier: waste_water, electricity --> water, waste

- waste processor: waste --> fertilizer

- water splitter: water, electricity --> oxygen, LiquidFuel(?)

... into a generic Chemical Reactor Facility part to handle all such conversions.

- grow food (greenhouse): water, fertilizer, CO2, electricity --> food, O2

- algae air recycler: water, fertilizer, CO2, electricity --> O2 (more efficient and faster than the greenhouse)

BioMass, I think, is a necessary intermediary resource, rather than going directly into Food. The molecular budget of your life support system is heavily invested into the greenhouse BioMass, there are multiple paths, entrances, and exits for resources to flow through the system, and managing that flow is the key to to the systems sustainability and the ability to identify shortages that need resupply or in-situ replenishment. Other than Food, the BioMass should be convertible into Fertilizer, CO2, N, or other elements, and fuel like the Renewable Bio Fuel Mod does.

The life support system has to support plant life as well as animal. The quantity of BioMass is variable, but the number of crew members is constant, and that number determines the maximum capacity and rate of BioMass generation, because of the crews limited rate of resource conversion to supply the atmospheric CO2 level and Waste->Fertilizer rate that feed the plants. This requires the option to cannibalize some BioMass to feed itself, either by decomposition/composting to recover all the resources as Fertilizer in the bio-loop, or more complex separation to elemental resources, to keep Carbon in the loop, but take out some Hydrogen for fuel, and Nitrogen for oxidizer, etc.

I like the Algae option as a high efficiency BioMass generator... it can also be eaten, but eating Algae gave me another idea entirely...

Morale:

I think it qualifies as life support, right? The effect of Morale could be simple, as a modifier to certain conversion rates, so that low Morale produces "leaks" in the system as crew members lose efficiency at their jobs, or "gain weight" as they process biomatter resources less efficiently..

The variables that determine the Morale level are probably infinite:

- Mission Time Elapsed, long missions continue to reduce Morale

- SOI, biome change, and EVA, implying something new to see or do, boosts Morale

- Eating Algae reduces Morale, eating Food has no effect, but eating SynthiMeat boosts it. Starving, drinking Greywater, and breathing Oxidizer reduces Morale

- Asphyxiating greatly reduces Morale. High CO2 levels reduce Morale by causing headaches.

- Some formula of # of crew members VS habitable volume, 3 in a capsule for months reduces morale, but an empty Hitchhiker module would give them more hab volume to negate the loss

- Some psychobabble derived data on 3 being the optimal size of a working group, or multiples of 3 staying optimal

- Courage, Stupidity, and BadAss flag of individual crew members, and the combinations of the crew as a whole. A crew member with low Courage may lose Morale more quickly but if he has a BadAss commander with high Courage that could negate the Morale loss. The key is for the BadAss Commander to also be NOT Stupid, and for the low Courage guy to also be NOT Stupid enough to recognize his Commander is also NOT Stupid, so that he trusts him. If the crew is composed of 3 BadAsses and they are all Stupid, I dont actually know if they would get along like Happy Stupid BadAsses, or if they would fight like Alpha males. If Morale reaches 0 for too long you come back to find only 2 Stupid BadAsses reporting a tragic airlock malfunction.

- Big window modules like Cupola or Karmony reduce Morale loss

- Entertainment, recreational, and exercise facility part(s) to reduce loss or boost Morale. Increased habitable volume as well as enhancements like exercise equipment, musical instruments, and big screen TVs.

So yeah.. please add all that stuff!

[WafflesToo]

TaranisElsu's values are based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_support_system#Human_physiological_and_metabolic_needs (I asked him because I was thinking of writing an LS mod based on those values), with consumption rates divided in half because Kerbals are only 1 meter tall. You could make a case where they would require even less, but their enormous nuggets indicate an enormous brain, which needs a lot of fuel. YMMV on the realism there...

As far as mass and such go, I assign values to my containers based on the 1 unit == 1 Kerbal day of that unit and let the game figure out how much that resource masses (it bases that on the resource definition config file). Food, water, and O2 are surprisingly light, all things considered, especially when your mod is based on a Kerbal needing 2.5kg of supplies per 24 hours.

All for keeping it simple. One unit = one day worth of that resource is perfect. But the containers all need to mass the same for balance so it's units per can that needs to be adjusted accordingly.

If I remember the article correctly, water should be the heaviest per unit, then food, then air.

[regex]

All for keeping it simple. One unit = one day worth of that resource is perfect. But the containers all need to mass the same for balance so it's units per can that needs to be adjusted accordingly.

If I remember the article correctly, water should be the heaviest per unit, then food, then air.

Here are the resource definitions from the config file.

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
   name = Food_TAC
   density = 0.000317
   flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
   transfer = PUMP
}
RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
   name = Water_TAC
   density = 0.001798
   flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
   transfer = PUMP
}
RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
   name = Oxygen_TAC
   density = 0.000429
   flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
   transfer = PUMP
}
RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
   name = CO2_TAC
   density = 0.000511
   flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
   transfer = PUMP
}
RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
   name = Waste_TAC
   density = 0.000056
   flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
   transfer = PUMP
}
RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
   name = WasteWater_TAC
   density = 0.001977
   flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
   transfer = PUMP
}

I'm not entirely sure how density works with KSP or what "unit" that refers to; I think a lot of people assume kg/liter, where a liter is one fuel unit? It's pretty fuzzy. There was a huge discussion over that sort of thing in the Modular Fuel Tanks thread, you might want to check it out. Again, remember that kerbals use one-half the resources that humans use, so 2.5kg in total per day. The densities for food, water, and oxygen add up to .002544, so it's safe to say that's kg per unit. Personally, I pretty much always use combined containers so I haven't run into the issues you have. Recyclers (and different recycling rates and returns) will add more interesting challenges with mass.

Also, I got a new version of my own mod out (unobligated for a bit) so I'll take a crack at the HexCan textures; Greys put some great guide textures into his work so it should be fairly easy to do. Then I'll package that up with a few other things and release an "extra container" pack here.

[WafflesToo]

I'm not entirely sure how density works with KSP or what "unit" that refers to; I think a lot of people assume kg/liter, where a liter is one fuel unit? It's pretty fuzzy. There was a huge discussion over that sort of thing in the Modular Fuel Tanks thread, you might want to check it out. Again, remember that kerbals use one-half the resources that humans use, so 2.5kg in total per day. The densities for food, water, and oxygen add up to .002544, so it's safe to say that's kg per unit. Personally, I pretty much always use combined containers so I haven't run into the issues you have. Recyclers (and different recycling rates and returns) will add more interesting challenges with mass.

Also, I got a new version of my own mod out (unobligated for a bit) so I'll take a crack at the HexCan textures; Greys put some great guide textures into his work so it should be fairly easy to do. Then I'll package that up with a few other things and release an "extra container" pack here.

Haven't run into problems yet, just trying to think ahead though.

Spent my lunch hour going through the source code a bit and did I read the values correctly for electrical power consumption? ~1/3 a charge-unit per second per Kerbal and an additional 2/3 charge-unit per second for each manned crew can. So a Mk.1-2 can is costing you 1-2/3 charge units per second.

And I thought the coms antennas were power hungry! I suddenly think I'm going to need to beef up the electrical systems on my ships

Oops! Missed a step, that was 1200 charge / Seconds Per DAY, I had misread it as hours.

That puts the electrical consumption at 0.013889 per second per Kerman and 0.027778 per second per crewed capsule which is far more reasonable.

Man did I overbuild the electrical system on the Pelican-K

Edited November 16, 2013 by WafflesToo

[TaranisElsu]

Hurray! The long anticipated next prerelease is now available: version 0.3.

Warning: I changed the directory structure. You will need to delete the old one before installing the new version.

Now includes parts for recycling CarbonDioxide and WasteWater. Greenhouses will be in a later release.

There are a lot of changes in this release, and I am in the middle of a lot more but decided to share what I have so everyone can play with it:

• One important thing: I changed the default consumption rates so that Kerbals use 1 unit per Kerbin day (6 hours). Previously it was 1 unit per Earth day. I adjusted everything accordingly so they still consume the same amount (mass) of resources, it is just the number of units that has changed.
  
• I renamed CO2 to CarbonDioxide.
  
• I added a ModuleManager configuration file so all stock parts come preequipped with 1 day's worth of supplies per Kerbal. My dynamic detection should still fill other mods' parts. Feel free to send me config files for other mods.
  
• I updated for 0.22 Career mode. The small and medium parts are available with Survivability (Tier 2) and the large parts are available with Heavy Rocketry (Tier 4). I also moved the small stock battery from Science Tech (Tier 3) to Survivability (Tier 2) because the lack of batteries severely limited mission times, especially since regular command pods need electric charge.
  
• I removed the _TAC from all the resource names. Note that the resource names are easy to change and can be localized to another language if desired.
  
• I separated the parts from the core plugin to make it easier to remove my ugly parts and use someone else's. They are now in separate directories.
  
• Added the TACLS Carbon Extractor and TACLS Water Purifier recycling parts. They come in medium and large sizes. Each can support up to 8 Kerbals. The Carbon Extractor takes CarbonDioxide+ElectricCharge and gives Oxygen+Waste. The Water Purifier takes WasteWater+ElectricCharge and gives Water+Waste. The part models are just placeholders. Modelers: please make some nicer parts and copy stuff from my config files. I tried to comment it well so that it is easy to understand. I will add links in the OP.
  
• Fixed some bugs related to going on EVA and returning.
  
• Changed the warnings. It no longer stops time warp when supplies are starting to get low. It only warns once resources reach 10% and empty. Warning: if you are at a high time warp, it may not drop to 1x fast enough and your Kerbals might be dead before you can react. Be careful using high time warp when resources are low.
  

Note that I changed the directory structure. It is now:

{KSP}/ThunderAerospace/TacLifeSupport

-- the core directory with the plug-in

{KSP}/ThunderAerospace/TacLifeSupportContainers

-- my (ugly) containers

{KSP}/ThunderAerospace/TacLifeSupportHexCans

-- the HexCans parts from Greys

{KSP}/ThunderAerospace/TacLifeSupportRecyclers

-- the recycling parts, also ugly. Modelers?

Edited November 16, 2013 by TaranisElsu

[nothke]

Hurray, indeed!! Good job!

[regex]

Now includes parts for recycling CarbonDioxide and WasteWater.

ಠ_ಠ

One important thing: I changed the default consumption rates so that Kerbals use 1 unit per Kerbin day (6 hours). Previously it was 1 unit per Earth day. I adjusted everything accordingly so they still consume the same amount (mass) of resources, it is just the number of units that has changed.

I question this move, but it's still configurable, right? That's going to affect all of my active ships and, frankly, is a bit confusing because the default "day" in KSP is 24 hours. That means that a Kerbal uses four resources for every KSP day which doesn't play as nicely with launch window planners and such. Sure, it's simple division, but one of the reasons I like your mod over others is that it abstracts the units to something reasonable and easily understood. vOv

Fixed some bugs related to going on EVA and returning.

Nice, is that related to Kerbals only returning half of their electrical charge when on EVA? That would make early career mode much easier, even without moving the battery.

I'll check this out later tonight, thanks!

[WafflesToo]

I question this move, but it's still configurable, right? That's going to affect all of my active ships and, frankly, is a bit confusing because the default "day" in KSP is 24 hours. That means that a Kerbal uses four resources for every KSP day which doesn't play as nicely with launch window planners and such. Sure, it's simple division, but one of the reasons I like your mod over others is that it abstracts the units to something reasonable and easily understood. vOv

Wanted to throw my two-cents in with regex. I think I'd rather see the days-of-supplies-per-ton be reduced than to have to divide by four on the fly just so there's less guesswork.

[Lalwcat]

Since the mods been updated, anyone got any tips for kerbal longevity? I threw a simple ship together with a Carbon extractor and a water purifier on a 3 man pod with 2 of those ZZ life support boxes (140 water/food/oxygen each). Got just about 22 days of food and, running the extractors constantly, somewhere around 34 days of water/oxygen. Not really much in the way of long term spacecraft or interplanetary missions, and I'd hate to just slap 8-way symmetry on hexcans or boxes to try to up the length.

[TaranisElsu]

Since the mods been updated, anyone got any tips for kerbal longevity? I threw a simple ship together with a Carbon extractor and a water purifier on a 3 man pod with 2 of those ZZ life support boxes (140 water/food/oxygen each). Got just about 22 days of food and, running the extractors constantly, somewhere around 34 days of water/oxygen. Not really much in the way of long term spacecraft or interplanetary missions, and I'd hate to just slap 8-way symmetry on hexcans or boxes to try to up the length.

The way that the recyclers work, basically they end up multiplying how long the supplies last. So since they operate at 90% efficiency, your supplies will last about 10x as long. So 140 units of oxygen would be equivalent to 1400 units, and should last 1400/3 Kerbin (6 hours) days.

The recyclers do not negate the need for a lot of supplies, they just reduce it. Long missions are still going to need a lot. The good news is that Kerbals only need 0.625kg of supplies per Kerbin day (2.5kg per Earth day) and recyclers reduce that to around 0.13 kg because Water is the heaviest of their needs. It should not be hard to pack enough supplies for a long interstellar flight, and it will not increase your craft's weight by that much. But it does require careful planning. I really like using http://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/ to find launch windows, flight times, etc. Be sure to plan your return launch window too!