TaranisElsu

[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

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We have talked about this many times.

It is normal and realistic that water is created.

Food when metabolized, do in fact produce large amount of water and CO2. In reality you'd be losing between half and two thirds of your oxygen to water (I don't think TAC actually does this).

Sure, but you're replying to the wrong person - I wasn't arguing against the point you're making.

- - - Updated - - -

I've actually been trying to do the calculations to figure out the numbers, but I think I'm hitting a roadblock. The process is C6H12O6 + 6 O2 > 6 CO2 + 6 H2O. So if my numbers are correct, you should have:

1kg Glucose + 1.07kg Oxygen --> 1.47kg CO2 + 0.6kg H2O

According to NASA's numbers, 0.62kg food and 0.84kg Oxygen is consumed per day per astronaut. But here's my problem. Even if you assumed that the whole 0.62kg food / day is glucose, the Oxygen needed is only ~0.66kg. So where is that other oxygen going? What happens to it?

Where's your water? Also, you have a chemical reaction between Glucose and O2 becoming CO2 and H2O, but that's only 1/3-1/2 of "food" - the rest is lipids and proteins.

NASA's most recent published numbers:

Input:

"Food" - 0.617kg/d

Water - 3.909 kg/d

O2 - 0.835 kg/d

Output:

"Waste" (solids) - 0.109 kg/d

"Wastewater" - 4.254 kg/d

CO2 - 0.998 kg/d

Source: Advanced Life Support Baseline Values and Assumptions, NASA 1994

Glucose should be about 0.3kg/d, not 1kg, and it's only 1 of several metabolic pathways involved.

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Hey, was just dropping by to say great mod, I feel it's essential to my game. But I also needed containers for Waste after making a station that recycled air and water. I tweaked the files a bit and "painted over" the Life Support Waste container to make the Organic Waste Container (3 sizes).

If anyone needs them they're here.

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I've actually been trying to do the calculations to figure out the numbers, but I think I'm hitting a roadblock. The process is C6H12O6 + 6 O2 > 6 CO2 + 6 H2O. So if my numbers are correct, you should have:

1kg Glucose + 1.07kg Oxygen --> 1.47kg CO2 + 0.6kg H2O

According to NASA's numbers, 0.62kg food and 0.84kg Oxygen is consumed per day per astronaut. But here's my problem. Even if you assumed that the whole 0.62kg food / day is glucose, the Oxygen needed is only ~0.66kg. So where is that other oxygen going? What happens to it?

Actually I was "a bit" out of it, you don't lose half to two thirds of oxygen to water.

But roughly 15-20%.

Note that glucose already contains all it's water, so you need oxygen only for the carbon (theoretically anyway things are much more complicated). Lipids and proteins to large extent (like most organic compounds) are mostly CH2 chains, so metabolizing them takes roughly 30% extra oxygen. However, since they don't contain the oxygen, in the same weight they would contain roughly twice as much carbon and hydrogen. A kg of pure fat would require around 160% extra oxygen compared to kg of pure glucose. So there's where your oxygen goes.

This is obviously a severe oversimplification. For example the urea cycle (removes hydrogen), the microflora metabolism (methane production) - but these are rather small part of the whole process (unless kerbals operate more like cows, which would explain frequent explosions).

The important part is that the result of what comes out need to weigh the same of what comes in (assuming no variance in kerbal weight), or at least not gain extra (we can imagine something was lost to space)

Edited by Aedile

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Yeah I know what you mean and where you're coming from. I was just trying to account for all the mass. Turns out if you weigh up the molecular masses of those compounds, they balance out perfectly. I merely used 1kg to try to demonstrate my point as it's easier to compare the other values, starting from 1.

My concern was where all the other compounds go. I'm no nutritionist or scientist or whatever, but I was curious why I was coming up short with the Oxygen, and where the rest of it was going.

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Me neither.

A kilogram actually makes good sense. This is what was trying to explain, that major difference between carbs and fats/proteins is that they got roughly twice as much carbon (in addition to the hydrogen which also needs external oxygen).

I suppose all the other compounds go to waste/waste water (eg the urea ends up in your pee). There is this implied trace contaminant removal and CO2 removal working on electricity

Most of the real LS systems actually capture water condensate. In a lot of cases it which goes directly to potable water. Lots of them split some of the extra water, releasing some oxygen. The resulting hydrogen can further be used in Sabatier process, in turn recycling CO2 and producing methane.

So in any case the amount of water+waste water should increase. (never bothered to see if TACLS does this).

Edited by Aedile

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I am having trouble getting the build aid menu to come up in the VAB. It also is not draining resources when I am flying a rocket. The parts show up in my build menus though.

I know there have been some posts about this next problem But I am struggling as I am not a developer or any good with computer coding. But, the parts zoom in until they dissappear in the build menus. Is there a workaround I could implement? If not its not a big deal I can still get the parts on my ship.

I hear this is important for some reason so...

output log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ug9gw1anjsq1g14/output_log.txt?dl=0

I am also running the windows 32 bit version on a 64 bit computer for what its worth.

any help would be great!

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whoops - realised i was replying to an ancient post :)

Edited by CorBlimey

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Warning: it looks like the ModularFuelTanks mod changed something that makes my compatibility configs not work with it anymore. A fix will be coming soon.

Thanks to @AccidentalDisassembly and others for bringing it to my attention.

I am still trying to adjust my kerbal's EVA electricity counts. I'd like for them to have ~100 units of electricity when they go on EVA, but right now they have ~367max, which is just too much for my default battery and pod counts.

What is the difference between ElectricityConsumptionRate and BaseElectricityConsumptionRate in the LifeSupport.cfg?

Also, is changing the kerbal electricity rate the only way to get my kerbals to have a flat 100e on EVA? Thanks for any help! :)

Kerbals on EVA are given 6 hours worth of electricity. The only way to change that is to change the consumption rate (EvaElectricityConsumptionRate) or the amount given (EvaDefaultResourceAmount) but that will affect food and water supplies also.

To change the EVA electicity you will need to adjust the eva electivity rate. A kerbal is given enough to last eactly 1 day so to force that to be 100 the eva rate should be set to 0.00463 (100/(6*60*60)).

For crewed ships the electicity consumption rate is BaseElectricityConsumptionRate * totalCapacity + ElectricityConsumptionRate * number of kerbals.

Very close, but the total consumption rate (for ships) is actually just: BaseElectricityConsumptionRate * number of occupied parts + ElectricityConsumptionRate * number of kerbals. The total consumption rate for Kerbals is just EvaElectricityConsumptionRate.

I got it to work :) But, are the Kerbals supposed to die once they run out of resources and go past their 'expiration limits'? While I was testing my custom rates, my kerb just did not expire from the lack.

edit: maybe because I was testing on the surface of Kerbin? I only went past the electricity expiration (oxygen is fine on the surface).

I changed it a while back so that running out of electricity does not kill if on Kerbin below a reasonable altitude. Oxygen is not required in that situation either. Kerbals do always need food & water because they could be in the desert, or at one of the poles, or deep in a jungle, or some place where there aren't any grocery stores around. It is easy enough to give them years worth of resources so I have not addressed that. Maybe someday.

I wonder is i have messed up my setting some how. But a small hex life support can has enough to supply my kerbal for 29 days.

As others have said, you do not need much more than what is contained in the command pod for a quick trip to the Mun and back. Minmus will require more, and an interplanetary mission will require a lot more -- especially if you are nice and don't send a single Kerbal on such a long trip all by himself ;.;.

Would you mind posting (or sending me a link) to your LifeSupport.cfg file from your game? I'd like to compare it with mine.

The mod will recreate the file for you with default values if you: rename the file (to get it out of the way), launch KSP to the Space Center scene and exit.

Hey, can someone help me out with a problem. I had TAC life support kill off all my crew when it still had food,oxygen,water. So to revive my crew back onboard I edited the save file. Now I got the crew back on the station by using the "assign" trick. However TAC will not register them as valid members of consumers.

http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q561/chadro_6963/Kerbal/screenshot39.png

As you can see on the bottom, the TAC window for Life Support Crew Roster says 0:00 for everything. Although the KISS has 400+ days of resources. I might have missed something in the save file that I need to edit. I hope someone can help me getting these crew members TAC compliant.

Sorry for the late reply. I do not see anything wrong in that picture. The main Life Support Monitoring window shows the amount of each resource that is remaining. The Life Support Crew Roster shows the time since the Kerbal last consumed the resource. Note that the "Last food" and "Last water" values should always match "Last updated", otherwise they have no food/water available and are going to die at some point.

If you ever see the mod kill off your crew when you think it should not have, then please immediately alt+tab out of the game, make a copy of the log file, and upload the log file to Dropbox or somewhere that I can look at it? See my signature for instructions on where to find the log file. I have not seen or heard of that happening in a long time, but if you hit a special case then I would really like to know about it.

Is it possible to install this in the middle of a career game? I am already on a 2nd restart and don't quite fancy the grind to get 2M funds to unlock some toys :)

I read somewhere that Kerbals don't start consuming resources until the first time they are loaded into the 2.5km active range, so I am hoping I can install -> despatch a supply ship -> wait a few hundred days -> land supply ship -> feed them.

It sounds like yes, but if you have any tips for a first-time TAC'er then...! :)

You are correct, ships have to be loaded into the current scene (i.e. be within 2.5 km) before the mod does anything with them.

Starting mid career is fine. I would make sure you don't have any interplanatary missions actively going on as they might find they are a long way from Kerbin with only 3 days of supplies. Get ready to send out supply ships to long term space stations. Anything that you can't dock a supply carrying module to is going to be a pain to keep supplied too so either evacuate the kerbals or end the mission. Keeping ground based stations that weren't specifically designed for wheeled docking supplied is also problematic.

It does not matter where your other ships are, do not get within 2.4 km of them without supplies. That is when the mod "detects" the other ship and starts calculating consumption. Nothing is done with the ship until then.

@Aedile, @Rayder, @panarchist, @Maelztrom

Have you seen my spreadsheet where I did all the calculations?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aioc9ek3XAvwdGNsRlh3OVhlbTFBR3M4RW0zLUNTRFE&usp=sharing#gid=0

Note that I assume the food is not completely dehydrated, so there is some water contained in the food. Similar to what they currently ship to the ISS. See the spreadsheet for calculations and sources.

I am having trouble getting the build aid menu to come up in the VAB. It also is not draining resources when I am flying a rocket. The parts show up in my build menus though.

I know there have been some posts about this next problem But I am struggling as I am not a developer or any good with computer coding. But, the parts zoom in until they dissappear in the build menus. Is there a workaround I could implement? If not its not a big deal I can still get the parts on my ship.

I hear this is important for some reason so...

output log: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ug9gw1anjsq1g14/output_log.txt?dl=0

I am also running the windows 32 bit version on a 64 bit computer for what its worth.

any help would be great!

Looks like an install problem. Please completely remove the mod, make sure that you downloaded the version from the Dropbox link in the thread OP (the file should be TacLifeSupport_0.10.1.1320.zip), and reinstall using these instructions.

That should fix it. Let me know if it doesn't.

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Hello TaranisElsu !

About your spreadsheet, could you explain me how do you get the mass (kg) in your recyclers calculations, please ?

I'm trying to add the Hydrogen to my recyclers. :)

Edit: I figured out what is it. Don't bother answering me.

Edited by dueb

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I enjoyed TAC-LS immensely when conducting long-duration missions in .24 last year.

I am patiently waiting for TAC to be updated to .90 before starting a 'serious' career game in the current version :)

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Hey all!

I could really use some help here. Although my config file matches another players (thanks Aedile), my amounts seem off. According to the Life Support Build Aid, in the VAB, my Mark I shows the following:

Food: 1 day, 1 minute, 4 seconds

Water: 5 hours, 15 minutes, 53 seconds

Oxygen: 4 hours, 32 minutes, 1 second

Electricity: 53 minutes, 29 seconds

Can anyone confirm or reject these values for me? If they are right, something seems wrong that a base capsule has more food than oxygen, and the electricity definitely seems really low to me.

Help? :confused:

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Greetings all,

Running KSP 0.90 and TACLS V0.10.1.1320 and i think i have ether a bug or compatibility problem (or something)...

The oxygen does not deplete and CO2 does not increase on any pod/hab... Water, food, waste, waste water are all fine.

Other mods installed are (take deep breath)...

B9_Aerospace_Pack-R5.2.8

DeadlyReentry_v6.4.0

Hex_Truss-0.3

KAS_0.4.10

KSPAlternateResourcePanel_2.6.3.0

LLL-13.1

MechJeb2-2.4.2.0

Near_Future_Construction-0.4.0

Near_Future_Solar-0.4.0

ProceduralParts-0.9.21

RemoteTech-v1.5.1

SCANsat-8.1

SIL_25 (modified to be compatible)

TacFuelBalancer_2.4.1.1008

TAL_Spherical_Toroidal_Pack_V3.12

Trajectories-1.1.2

TweakScale_1.50

UbioWeldContinued-2.1.1

Universal_Storage-1.0.90.1

Told ya to take a deep breath...

I'm going to setup another KSP 0.90 with only LS installed to see if it's a mod compatability issue tomarrow... thaught i'd throw this up to see if anyone else has noticed it?

Thanks

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The oxygen does not deplete and CO2 does not increase on any pod/hab... Water, food, waste, waste water are all fine.

By chance you aren't doing your testing of this on Kerbin, are you? Because Kerbin has oxygen so they don't need external oxygen. I believe the same is true for Laythe.

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I thought you had to have an air intake and an air filter to do this????

I will test this with a rocket then...

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You need the intakes and filters the stored supplies of Oxygen on the craft.

Also the Oxygen on Laythe isn't usable without air intakes and filters to purify it.

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Well that's embarrassing...

Stuck a mk1 on a rocket and as soon as it got past 1.5K the oxygen started being used...

Is there a CFG setting so that i can turn it off so that is HAS to have an air intake / filter before it will replenish O2?

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No, the Kerbin surface thing is hard coded, the idea is that if they are in a breathable atmospher they can just open the door to replenish the oxygen in the capsule without having ot use up their resources.

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So how to get this running on 0.90? Do I need 0.10.1 and the drop box zip files? Or just the zip files? Or is it just busted and I should wait?

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So how to get this running on 0.90? Do I need 0.10.1 and the drop box zip files? Or just the zip files? Or is it just busted and I should wait?

I am using the regular install with the quickfix noted on the front page I haven't had any problems yet. I didn't wait for the fix to become official, although I am hoping it happens soon... TAC LS is the only mod I can't install with CKAN right now!

Also, if anyone would mind looking at my post (2561) above, I'd really appreciate some feedback. Thanks!

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So I install 0.10.1 and then apply the five zip files in drop box? Just trying to spell this out for dummies like me. :)

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So I install 0.10.1 and then apply the five zip files in drop box? Just trying to spell this out for dummies like me. :)

If all you're using is TAC Life Support (the other zip files in the dropbox are for other TAC mods) then you just need to extract the contents of the TacLifeSupport_0.10.1.1320.zip file and copy the contained GameData folder into your Kerbal Space Program directory, allowing it to overwrite any existing files.

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I am using the regular install with the quickfix noted on the front page I haven't had any problems yet. I didn't wait for the fix to become official, although I am hoping it happens soon... TAC LS is the only mod I can't install with CKAN right now!

Also, if anyone would mind looking at my post (2561) above, I'd really appreciate some feedback. Thanks!

There is a quickfix link on the opening post of this thread but when I click on it, nothing happens. Could someone be kind enough to repost a working link here please?

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There is a quickfix link on the opening post of this thread but when I click on it, nothing happens. Could someone be kind enough to repost a working link here please?

It's a link to a drop box that has 7 zip files. Not sure if this helps, maybe try a different browser?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3emtoeyky6c3w8v/AAAj-5dHf8POF8QI6bEOSSAla?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3emtoeyky6c3w8v/AAAj-5dHf8POF8QI6bEOSSAla?dl=0

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It's a link to a drop box that has 7 zip files. Not sure if this helps, maybe try a different browser?

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3emtoeyky6c3w8v/AAAj-5dHf8POF8QI6bEOSSAla?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3emtoeyky6c3w8v/AAAj-5dHf8POF8QI6bEOSSAla?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3emtoeyky6c3w8v/AACeKCYqv4NGnloOUMrl-kZla/TacLifeSupport_0.10.1.1320.zip?dl=0 is the fix for 0.90

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