TaranisElsu

[1.0.5] TAC Life Support v0.11.2.1 [12Dec]

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Btw. most of the "space food" is dehydrated. They need to add the water in space just before they eat it.

Do you have a source for that statement? It was true in the Apollo days (and the early STS days), but not anymore (except on Soyuz). There are 8 types of food, described here:

http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/190546main_SFN_Introduction.pdf

1. Rehydratable (dehydrated)

2. Thermostabilized

3. Intermediate-Moisture (partially dehydrated)

4. Natural Form

5. Irradiated

6. Frozen

7. Fresh

8. Refrigerated

There's a good video on food on ISS here:

Drinks are still almost universally dehydrated. In KSP, it really depends on one's assumptions as to the level of technology, etc. IRL, there's a spectrum, from all dehydrated, to the 8 types above, to possibly growing food in orbit in long-term missions. NASA has a whole unit dedicated to developing the food supply of the future for space missions.

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Do you have a source for that statement?

Just saw it in a documentary some weeks ago. Maybe the documentary was not accuracy. The explaintation was that dehydrated food needs less space and has less weight.

Thanks for the links, I'm always interested and will look into it :)

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Just saw it in a documentary some weeks ago. Maybe the documentary was not accuracy. The explaintation was that dehydrated food needs less space and has less weight.

Thanks for the links, I'm always interested and will look into it :)

That is correct. And since the ISS recycles most of its' water and all of its' oxygen, supply runs to it need to carry mostly just food.

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Well, if it's heavy enough you'd need to decide. Also it'll probably need power etc.

Hmm, yes. With a hefty power requirement it could be relatively balanced. I don't know how hard it would be to add such a thing to the mod. And as much as I personally would enjoy such a part, I don't know how well it would fit into the theme of the mod.

On a partially related tangent, I was wondering what the status of the possible greenhouse part is? :D

Edited by Sophistry

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On a partially related tangent, I was wondering what the status of the possible greenhouse part is? :D

Not sure if Taranis has started work on an official greenhouse part - he lists a number of TAC LS compatible greenhouses here: https://github.com/taraniselsu/TacLifeSupport/wiki/Description#greenhouses

The list includes my two greenhouses which you can find here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/84246-0-23-5-MunSeeker-Greenhouses-%28TAC-Life-Support-add-on%29-Update-July-2-2014 - I don't know about the others, but mine have been updated to work with the current release of TAC LS and I use them actively in long-term missions - so I know they actually work. :-)

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Not sure if Taranis has started work on an official greenhouse part - he lists a number of TAC LS compatible greenhouses here: https://github.com/taraniselsu/TacLifeSupport/wiki/Description#greenhouses

The list includes my two greenhouses which you can find here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/84246-0-23-5-MunSeeker-Greenhouses-%28TAC-Life-Support-add-on%29-Update-July-2-2014 - I don't know about the others, but mine have been updated to work with the current release of TAC LS and I use them actively in long-term missions - so I know they actually work. :-)

Here's a closed system space station from OKS (though it needs a ton or two of spare parts every ten years or so...). So for folks scared away by MKS complexity... you can handle closed system life support for up to five Kerbals in one launch and less than ten parts. Plus it's a gateway drug to my other mods ;)

4sFZLdr.png

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[No Win64]

Shouldn't it be [No Win64 support] ? Because that gives me the impression that TAC is completely, 100% broken with x64. That I shouldn't even bother installing it. Or... Is that actually the case?

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Here's a closed system space station from OKS (though it needs a ton or two of spare parts every ten years or so...). So for folks scared away by MKS complexity... you can handle closed system life support for up to five Kerbals in one launch and less than ten parts. Plus it's a gateway drug to my other mods ;)

What's that part under decoupler from? It looks pretty nice and I don't quite recognize it. Also, sooo smooooth.... damn I have to dump some mods and stop using ATM. Or do you use any visual enhancement mods?

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What's that part under decoupler from? It looks pretty nice and I don't quite recognize it. Also, sooo smooooth.... damn I have to dump some mods and stop using ATM. Or do you use any visual enhancement mods?

The module under the decoupler is the new OKS/MKS Pioneer Module - basically a lot of small-quantity resource storage bits, a KAS bin, and a parts storage bin all in one part. Lets me drop several parts, and not have people launch 20 tons of spare supplies in a radial tank (which by the way would be enough to last your station at least 100 years... which may or may not be what you want).

That's just 32 bit without ATM (but in fairness it's my dev save, which only has USI mods on it). I do play with TAC in 64 bit, but I also shrug it off when I crash once in a while (and to be clear, said crash is not a TAC thing).

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Not sure if Taranis has started work on an official greenhouse part - he lists a number of TAC LS compatible greenhouses here: https://github.com/taraniselsu/TacLi...on#greenhouses

The list includes my two greenhouses which you can find here: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/...te-July-2-2014 - I don't know about the others, but mine have been updated to work with the current release of TAC LS and I use them actively in long-term missions - so I know they actually work. :-)

Ah, thanks very much :D

Here's a closed system space station from OKS (though it needs a ton or two of spare parts every ten years or so...). So for folks scared away by MKS complexity... you can handle closed system life support for up to five Kerbals in one launch and less than ten parts. Plus it's a gateway drug to my other mods

I must admit I keep visiting the OKS/MKS thread and hovering my cursor over the download link (Even more so now I'm playing with TACLS) but considering the number of mods I already have installed I've shied away from adding another pack. One question I do have: If I installed OKS alone, are there any dependent files from MKS I need to make it work?

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Ah, thanks very much :D

I must admit I keep visiting the OKS/MKS thread and hovering my cursor over the download link (Even more so now I'm playing with TACLS) but considering the number of mods I already have installed I've shied away from adding another pack. One question I do have: If I installed OKS alone, are there any dependent files from MKS I need to make it work?

You could in theory kill off most of the MKS parts and their assets to save space :)

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You could in theory kill off most of the MKS parts and their assets to save space :)

Oooh, it's a lot smaller than I expected, excellent! Not that my wheezing RAM will see it that way xD

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Oooh, it's a lot smaller than I expected, excellent! Not that my wheezing RAM will see it that way xD

LOTS of texture reuse ;)

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[No Win64]

Shouldn't it be [No Win64 support] ? Because that gives me the impression that TAC is completely, 100% broken with x64. That I shouldn't even bother installing it. Or... Is that actually the case?

I'm wondering the same thing, since I added it without checking. It seems to be working but I'm only 3 missions in so there hasn't been much testing.

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Having a recurring problem where one of my save files suddenly decided it didn't want to load anymore, after getting a decent way into the career.

Full output logs and stuff:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8m9omga502c6nd4/AADxZZEOnOlzu7-UmzWSRaDga?dl=0

I've tried moving all sorts of things around, but I haven't had much luck on my own. I'm out of my depth here.

Unfortunately, since you are using Win 64-bit, there isn't anything that I can do to help you. Not until Squad fixes the issues with that version, or at least makes it more consistent. Or if you can provide some information that definitively points at something in my mod. Why do you think it has anything at all to do with my mod?

I spent several hours playing with the Win64 version, with a ton of mods installed, and I had numerous crashes but they were not consistent. I could not trace them back to any mod, neither mine nor others'.

Go read the [Official] How To Get Support (READ FIRST) and try the debugging steps there. Also try copying your entire KSP directory to another location, delete every mod except mine and ModuleManager, and see if the problem still exists. Or if you think the combination of my mod and another are causing the issue, delete every mod but those. It is hard to figure out anything when you have a bajillion mods installed.

BTW, here is something that I wrote before about Win64 support.

And thank you very much for providing the full log file! If you could, would you also upload your persistent.sfs file so I can take a look at it?

[No Win64]

Shouldn't it be [No Win64 support] ? Because that gives me the impression that TAC is completely, 100% broken with x64. That I shouldn't even bother installing it. Or... Is that actually the case?

You are correct. I have yet to find any issues in Win64 that I can attribute to my mod, but the Win64 version is so buggy and inconsistent that I cannot offer any support for it. I would rather spend my limited time improving the mod rather than chasing ghosts.

Seems to be working fine for me on x64.
Just want to say I had never problems/bugs/etc with this version, even with tarsier space tech and even under win-64 client.

And that is why I don't like the Win64 version right now. So inconsistent.

Here's a closed system space station from OKS (though it needs a ton or two of spare parts every ten years or so...). So for folks scared away by MKS complexity... you can handle closed system life support for up to five Kerbals in one launch and less than ten parts. Plus it's a gateway drug to my other mods ;)

http://i.imgur.com/4sFZLdr.png

Ooooo... pretty...

is it possible to disable the death?

I am actually working on a version that will make the Kerbals "hibernate" instead of die -- i.e. make the ship uncontrollable until more supplies are brought. No promises though because it is taking a fair bit of work.

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I am actually working on a version that will make the Kerbals "hibernate" instead of die -- i.e. make the ship uncontrollable until more supplies are brought. No promises though because it is taking a fair bit of work.

Some where I saw in my persistant.sfs its states

Hibernate = false.

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Hey, thanks for the fast response!

Unfortunately, since you are using Win 64-bit, there isn't anything that I can do to help you. Not until Squad fixes the issues with that version, or at least makes it more consistent. Or if you can provide some information that definitively points at something in my mod. Why do you think it has anything at all to do with my mod?

I spent several hours playing with the Win64 version, with a ton of mods installed, and I had numerous crashes but they were not consistent. I could not trace them back to any mod, neither mine nor others'.

Go read the [Official] How To Get Support (READ FIRST) and try the debugging steps there. Also try copying your entire KSP directory to another location, delete every mod except mine and ModuleManager, and see if the problem still exists. Or if you think the combination of my mod and another are causing the issue, delete every mod but those. It is hard to figure out anything when you have a bajillion mods installed.

BTW, here is something that I wrote before about Win64 support.

And thank you very much for providing the full log file! If you could, would you also upload your persistent.sfs file so I can take a look at it?

Well that's disappointing (about the Win64 bugs).

So the game is fairly stable when I start up a new game, all mods are working great, everything's playing nicely...until I get to a certain point in the game. There are now 2 save files (I think) that've done well up until a certain point, then just refused to load again. Other save files work, but not these two, for whatever reason. I'm pretty sure the problem isn't me simply updating mods, haven't noticed any correlation with that (with a few exceptions that were immediately solved). Only significant change in state I can think of would be in life support, various kerbals going in and out of vessels. That and the lines

Tac.AddLifeSupport[9C33BE80][133.08]: Adding resources to kerbalEVA/

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

Tac.AddLifeSupport[9C33BE80][133.08]: The expected exception is still happening when adding the Life Support part module to the EVA: Object reference not set to an instance of an object

at Part.AddModule (System.String moduleName) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at Part.AddModule (.ConfigNode node) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at Tac.AddLifeSupport.EvaAddPartModule (.Part part) [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

Tac.SpaceCenterManager[FFF89C16][133.08]: Deleting crew member: Jenely Kerman

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

Tac.SpaceCenterManager[FFF89C16][133.08]: Deleting crew member: Tanzon Kerman

(Filename: C:/BuildAgent/work/d63dfc6385190b60/artifacts/StandalonePlayerGenerated/UnityEngineDebug.cpp Line: 49)

Crash!!!

are what make me think it's TAC. I'll readily admit that I don't know nearly enough to defend my position based on the output log, though, I'm still learning this stuff.

Here's my .sfs file. Thanks again for taking a look at the problem.

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Some where I saw in my persistant.sfs its states

Hibernate = false.

Yes, that is the beginning of that feature. I have been intending to add it for a while. SoonTM... er... well... at some pointTM, hopefully.

That and the lines

(quote snipped)

are what make me think it's TAC. I'll readily admit that I don't know nearly enough to defend my position based on the output log, though, I'm still learning this stuff.

And the problem is that a lot of times, the Win64 version will crash in the Space Center scene and my mod is one of the few things that logs stuff there. Not that it is the only thing doing anything in that scene. Far from it. You can see at the end of your output_log.txt that it actually crashed in Contracts.Contract:Generate(). But that is just this time. Next time it will crash in some other random method.

The log message about "The expected exception is still happening" means that I expect that to happen, and I catch it and handle it so no harm is done. You will find that every time when it goes to the Space Center scene after loading a save file -- even when it does not crash.

Also, you don't have many Kerbals or Vessels that the mod is tracking. Only one vessel with two crew members aboard, and two other vessels that can have crew. See the CrewMemberInfo {} and VesselInfo {} blocks.

So the game is fairly stable when I start up a new game, all mods are working great, everything's playing nicely...until I get to a certain point in the game. There are now 2 save files (I think) that've done well up until a certain point, then just refused to load again. Other save files work, but not these two, for whatever reason.

If it is crashing every time you load that save, and you want to try something, then (in a duplicate copy of your KSP directory) try deleting every CONTRACT {} and every CONTRACT_FINISHED {} block out of the SCENARIO { name = ContractSystem } section of your persistent.sfs file -- i.e. lines 108-2677. My justification for trying that is: the crash happened in a Contract method, and that it crashes after you progress some through the game. Let me know what happens, if anything changes or you get the same results.

Another thing to try, just to rule it out, is delete the CrewMemberInfo {} and VesselInfo {} blocks. That shouldn't have any effect, but programming bugs can be nefarious like that. Note that your Kerbals will stop consuming supplies until you go to that ship again.

Good luck!

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I literally just had the exact problem you did, and what worked for me, at least, was this: if you have parts that might be crashing you, remove the mods themselves until the KSC station loads. Completely deleting all active contracts lets it regenerate them and you should be fine. I think it might be FinePrint or stock contracts making things go wonky.

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If it is crashing every time you load that save, and you want to try something, then (in a duplicate copy of your KSP directory) try deleting every CONTRACT {} and every CONTRACT_FINISHED {} block out of the SCENARIO { name = ContractSystem } section of your persistent.sfs file -- i.e. lines 108-2677. My justification for trying that is: the crash happened in a Contract method, and that it crashes after you progress some through the game. Let me know what happens, if anything changes or you get the same results.

Another thing to try, just to rule it out, is delete the CrewMemberInfo {} and VesselInfo {} blocks. That shouldn't have any effect, but programming bugs can be nefarious like that. Note that your Kerbals will stop consuming supplies until you go to that ship again.

Good luck!

Ooooooooooooooh. Yeah, like I said, I don't know enough to read the logs well enough to do this on my own. I've got class soon, but I'll try it in a few hours and report back.

Man, thanks a ton for helping me de-bug this, even though apparently your mod had nothing to do with it and I'm playing the KSP version you said you don't support. It hadn't occurred to me that the contracts was another changing state, so I'll definitely try that out.

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OK

Attempt #1: semi-blindly deleted lines 108-2677. Got to loading screen, game froze up and stopped responding at the usual spot, but this time Windows killed it and it didn't generate a report.

Attempt #2: found and deleted every CONTRACT {} and CONTRACT_FINISHED {} block, one at a time. IT LOADED! I CAN SEE THE SPACE CENTER! Everyone's alive and well (minus a few test pilots, but that's what they're there for). However, when I go to the tracking station and try to fly one of my ships, it crashes again. Checked the output_log, says something under stack trace about

StackIcon:DoMove () + 0x55 (000000002F3AFF70 000000002F3AFFCF) [00000000035C4D48 - Unity Root Domain] + 0x0(0x000000002F3AFB1F) (Mono JIT code): (filename not available): StageGroup:Sort () + 0xdcf (000000002F3AED50 000000002F3AFD94) [00000000035C4D48 - Unity Root Domain] + 0x0

(0x000000002F3AE3A2) (Mono JIT code): (filename not available): Staging:sortIcons () + 0x1202 (000000002F3AD1A0 000000002F3AE944) [00000000035C4D48 - Unity Root Domain] + 0x0

Also saw somewhere higher in the log something about looking for Kerbal Alarm Clock, which isn't currently installed...so I reinstalled it, tried again.

Attempt #3: Crashed in the same place, trying to go to my vehicle from the tracking station. This time stacktrace says something about raster prop monitor.

Attempt #4: Froze up when I entered the tracking station. Killed by Windows, no error folder generated.

I'm gonna come back to this later.

Thanks again Taranis.

EDIT: I tried the save file again. I tried accessing a different vessel from the tracking station first, it worked. Tried switching from that vessel to the problem vessel from map view, it worked. Went back and forth, still worked. Everything appears to be working now. I don't know why.

Edited by TTTA

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is there a general strategy for a self sustaining life support system, or do you always need outside resources feeding into the loop like something generated by another mod such as MKS

Edited by endl

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is there a general strategy for a self sustaining life support system, or do you always need outside resources feeding into the loop like something generated by another mod such as MKS

Currently, TAC leaves closed-loop to other mods so there's room for some that make it easier and some that make it harder.

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