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fenderzilla

How salty is Laythe?

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Seeing as Laythe is filled with sand, what are the chances that that sand is very salt heavy if not salt based? Common table salt (to which I assume is the salt referred to by the OP) is made up of hydrogen and chlorine. The former is the most abundant in the universe, and the latter is only 17 on the table, which is well below the limit for the cores of stars, which is iron (27), so I would assume that chlorine is also quite abundant in the universe.

Now the question becomes, how hard is it to get hydrogen and chlorine to combine. It's extremely plentiful on Earth, and scientists speculate that Europa has a very salty ocean. You combine this fact with the fact that Laythe is Nova's idea of putting Europa in Io's position, than I think that we have a very salty Joolean moon out there.

Hold on there, table salt is sodium and chlorine, not hydrogen. Hydrogen and chlorine makes hydrochloric acid.

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Hold on there, table salt is sodium and chlorine, not hydrogen. Hydrogen and chlorine makes hydrochloric acid.

Wow... how did I mess those two up. I even thought to myself that hydrogen and chlorine make hydrochloric acid. Either way, sodium is below the star core limit of iron, and it's pretty abundant in our world, and most likely Europa, so I see it as being likely on Laythe as well.

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Wow... how did I mess those two up. I even thought to myself that hydrogen and chlorine make hydrochloric acid. Either way, sodium is below the star core limit of iron, and it's pretty abundant in our world, and most likely Europa, so I see it as being likely on Laythe as well.

Don't worry, it happens to the best :P

But yeah, ammonia is nitrogen and hydrogen, even lighter than sodium, so it's just as probable. And IIRC, ammonia is a very good solvant for potentially silicon based organics, so it doesn't throw out the possibility of life. It just really depends what Laythe will actually look like when the temperature actually makes sense lol

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...Also, if the diurnal temperature range on Laythe is 6 C to -40 C, that seems pretty large for a planet that's mostly water and ammonia. On Earth, the diurnal range for coastal cities is usually not more than about 8-10 C. Is there an elevation component to the temperature readings in KSP? Because being on a mountain seems much more likely to be the cause of -40 C readings than being on the night side of the planet.

I don't think that range is supposed to be the diurnal range, but is supposed to be the range in temperature between the warmest part of the planet (equator in the afternoon) and the coldest part (poles). But the temperature model currently in KSP is just a placeholder and does not reflect diurnal or positional changes.

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I guess then the Caribbean is turquoise because the sky is turquoise there, and that my local pond is brown because of the sky in the region too. Sky has little effect on the colour of your water compared to what's in it.

Come on. The water can be tinted or shaded by the sediments in it (or in the Caribbean's case, the lack of them). this is what makes the water clear or murky. If you look at a glass of water, it looks totally clear (hopefully). If you fill your bathtub up, the water is the same color as the ceiling. because water's surface is reflective. Duh. for the most part, the sea looks blue because the sky is blue.

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Come on. The water can be tinted or shaded by the sediments in it (or in the Caribbean's case, the lack of them). this is what makes the water clear or murky. If you look at a glass of water, it looks totally clear (hopefully). If you fill your bathtub up, the water is the same color as the ceiling. because water's surface is reflective. Duh. for the most part, the sea looks blue because the sky is blue.

However, oxygen's spectra is mostly green and violet, not blue

Oxygen_spectre.jpg

Also ammonia is made up of nitrogen and Hydrogen.

Hydrogen's spectra is mostly cyan with a little red and violet

Hydrogen_Spectra.jpg

And nitrogen's spectra is a pretty rainbow

Nitrogen_Spectra.jpg

Considering that water and ammonia are mostly hydrogen, it is not the ocean reflecting the sky's color, but the water directly reflecting blue light. (I just killed my earlier dissolved copper/cobalt argument :P). For the bathtub argument the water is the color of your ceiling because the bathtub is usually the same color as the ceiling. Fill a colored cup/mug/bowl up with water and the water's "color" should be the container's color. Light reflected off the container pass through the water and into your eyes.

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However, oxygen's spectra is mostly green and violet, not blue

Oxygen_spectre.jpg

Also ammonia is made up of nitrogen and Hydrogen.

Hydrogen's spectra is mostly cyan with a little red and violet

Hydrogen_Spectra.jpg

And nitrogen's spectra is a pretty rainbow

Nitrogen_Spectra.jpg

Considering that water and ammonia are mostly hydrogen, it is not the ocean reflecting the sky's color, but the water directly reflecting blue light. (I just killed my earlier dissolved copper/cobalt argument :P). For the bathtub argument the water is the color of your ceiling because the bathtub is usually the same color as the ceiling. Fill a colored cup/mug/bowl up with water and the water's "color" should be the container's color. Light reflected off the container pass through the water and into your eyes.

Those are the emission spectra you get from those elements when they are in the form of an excited thin gas. They do not represent to colors of the cool gasses. And the emission spectrum of a water molecule is different from those of hydrogen and oxygen in any case, mostly having to do with the rotational and vibrational states of the molecule.

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?..Also, the tidal deformation is maximum at the equator, minimal at the poles, so the heating likely follows this distribution too, so solar heating may not be the only factor in the formation of the polar ice of Laythe.

The tidal forces acting on Laythe by Jool will cause it to have a prolate spheroidal shape with its long axis pointing radially toward and away from Jool. When Valle and Tylo pass close to Laythe, they will cause it to change shape by becoming longer in its long direction and shorter in is short directions (which is not just in the direction of the poles, but all around the "belt" that is at right angles to the Jool/antiJool directions. The whole moon will have to flex to conform to this new shape, not just its equatorial region.

This is different from what happens on Earth where the Earth's surface rotates beneath the Moon and causes its tidal bulges to be under the orbit of the Moon, moving around as the Earth's surface rotates under the Moon, while the poles stay at roughly the same curvature.

Edited by Brotoro

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the tidal waves on laythe must be crazy. Since laythe is tidally locked to jool, and jool is gigantic and very close, wouldn't the sea rise up much higher where it's closest to jool, and stay there?

correct me if I'm being a dumbass.

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Ethylene Glycol and water has a freezing point well below -40. 70/30 mix would freeze or gel up around -60C.

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the tidal waves on laythe must be crazy. Since laythe is tidally locked to jool, and jool is gigantic and very close, wouldn't the sea rise up much higher where it's closest to jool, and stay there?

correct me if I'm being a dumbass.

"Tidal waves" have nothing to do with tides.

Jool is not gigantic (it's only the size and mass of Venus), but it IS very close, so it will cause a large tidal distortion of the shape of Laythe, yes. But the whole bulk of the planet will deform to this prolate ellipsoidal shape, so the depth of the oceans over the solid surface does not have to vary greatly with location on Laythe due to Jool's tides.

There would be very large transient tides when Vall and Tylo pass close to Laythe, however, because of the small distances in the Jool system.

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Do you guys think it is possible that, given this is still an alpha stage game, that the developers haven't even thought all this stuff through as much as you have, and that the characteristics of some of these planets are at present, simply anomalous relative to the laws of chemistry and physics? I'm new to the game so, no idea if this is the sort of thing they would've sorted out already or not.

The other thing to consider is that: even today, Jupiter and his moons (I know most planets are referred to by the feminine pronoun but in this case that just doesn't seem right) remain largely mysterious and unknown. Indeed, the finest details of _Earth's_ geologic history and structure remain somewhat mysterious even now.

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the tidal waves on laythe must be crazy. Since laythe is tidally locked to jool, and jool is gigantic and very close, wouldn't the sea rise up much higher where it's closest to jool, and stay there?

correct me if I'm being a dumbass.

"Tidal waves" have nothing to do with tides.

Jool is not gigantic (it's only the size and mass of Venus), but it IS very close, so it will cause a large tidal distortion of the shape of Laythe, yes. But the whole bulk of the planet will deform to this prolate ellipsoidal shape, so the depth of the oceans over the solid surface does not have to vary greatly with location on Laythe due to Jool's tides.

I think that, Laythe being tidally locked with Jool, this particular deformation would cause no tide at all. Tides happen when the water deforms faster than the planetary crust, however if the deformation is static, there is no difference in speed thus no tidal movement of the seas.

There would be very large transient tides when Vall and Tylo pass close to Laythe, however, because of the small distances in the Jool system.

There it is, the real cause of high tides for Laythe.

Edited by Jesrad

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Jool is not gigantic (it's only the size and mass of Venus)

Yes, it is true that Jool is tiny compared to its analog, Jupiter. The planets/moons and even the sun in ksp are much, much smaller than they would be irl, but that's just to save computer power. If all the celestial bodies in ksp were scaled up to their analog's size (Kerbin would be bigger than jool is now), imagine how laggy the game would get. We're sort of supposed to imagine.

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Water is a much better insulator than air, so our atmospheric temperature measurements of Laythe are going to be largely useless for determining the temperature of the water. We could perhaps hypothesize that the water has a temperature somewhere around the atmospheric average (~-15°C), but that's still a huge assumption since the oceans might well be retaining a good amount of heat radiated from internal tidal forces.

Ultimately, we don't have enough information at this time to make a strong conclusion. With the atmospheric temperature close to freezing, it's not unreasonable to think the oceans are either above (or below) any number of potential freezing points. Ammonia, salinity, tidal heating, or some combination, could all explain its liquid state. Though I like Brotor bringing up the ice caps. Clearly solar radiation at least contributes to water's surface temperature. Perhaps if we compared equitorial, polar, and borderline average temperatures we could start to build a model.

And for the "water is transparent, you're seeing the sky reflected" folks, allow me to put that to rest. Water is blue. It absorbs longer red wavelengths of light slightly more than higher blue wavelengths. It doesn't absorb much light at all in small quantities, so a glass of water looks colorless to our eyes, but the effect is pretty clear at any sort of quantity. The reflected sky does contribute to the color of large bodies of water, but this is in addition to, not instead of, water's inherent blue color. Or does the earth look so blue from space because of the otherwise transparent atmosphere you're looking through? Impurities dissolved in the water may also affect the color.

Wikipedia article here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_of_water

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btw is it pronounced like "laythee" (lazy with a lisp) or "layth" (like lithe with an A)?

Since it is not spelled "Laythee" or "Laythie", the single 'e' is there to soften the 'th' sound. So it would be pronounced like the word "lathe".

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Wouldn't nitrogen-based life or phosphorous-nitrogen life be possible, given a solvent of ammonia in Laythe's oceans?

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If all the celestial bodies in ksp were scaled up to their analog's size (Kerbin would be bigger than jool is now), imagine how laggy the game would get. We're sort of supposed to imagine.

Actually, lag is a function of polygons, not size, which is arbitrary to a computer. You could scale things up or down as much as you wanted, and assuming the polygon count stayed the same (which it would unless you built new 3D models), it wouldn't affect the processing requirements one bit. My understanding is that all of the celestial bodies are smaller to improve gameplay. It takes less time to drive or fly over their surface, and it takes considerably less delta-v to get into orbit. The interstellar distances are also much shorter, Kerbin orbits around 13,000,000 km, while Earth orbits around 150,000,000 km.

Which actually brings up a worthwhile point. I enjoy this speculation quite a bit, and am starting to think of a science mission to send to Laythe to get us more information. It would be super cool if we came up with an explanation even if the devs never intended one. But, at what point do we need to take into account that Kerbin, Laythe, and the rest have bodies made up of something about 10x denser than iron? Something which doesn't seem to exist in our universe and which would have unknown properties.

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Hmm... ill have to send a science mission over to Laythe then.

Also, the only thing we have to reference the density of the planets is gravitational attraction. Is it possible to leave everything the same and just assume that the gravitational constant G is 10 times what it is in our universe?

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Water is a much better insulator than air, so our atmospheric temperature measurements of Laythe are going to be largely useless for determining the temperature of the water.

I think you mean water has a higher heat capability, over 4 times as much as air, meaning it can absorb >4 times as many Joules or calories per gram. It also has a much higher heat conductivity, 24 times higher, and that makes it far, FAR, less useful at insulating.

Edited by Jesrad

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Hmmm... How much radiated heat does Jool put out?

Being as it is supposed to be a replicate of Jupiter, and I think everything is scaled down to 1/3, I believe 1/3 as much as Jupiter does.

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It might just be me, but if we have a conclusive temperature reading, using a thermometer, wouldn't it be irrelevant what exactly caused this heat? Well, warmth actually, but im not going to fuzz about that. Sun, Jool, tidal friction, doesn't really matter because we have experimental data, right? The only temperature-related reading we don't have is an ocean reading, since all we have are temperatures programmed for atmosphere.

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