Is our solar system a binary system.

[aceassasin]

I have been watching many space shows on the science channel and with the commonality of binary star systems is it possible we may have another smaller star we have yet to discover?

[Horn Brain]

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we almost certainly do not have a binary companion. If we did, it would have shown up really obviously on one of the many infrared surveys used to look for distant objects like Kuiper belt, scattered disk, etc.

There is this crazy theory that we have a dim brown dwarf or possibly very small red dwarf companion star (called "Nemesis") which is responsible for what proponents claim is a periodic bombardment of the solar system by comets disturbed from their orbits in the Oort cloud. No such star has been seen in the surveys I mentioned, either. It falls in the same category as Vulcan, Planet X, and the supposed "anti-Earth" that was proposed might orbit exactly opposite the Sun from us: I call this category the Looney Bin.

[khyron42]

The minimum mass for a Star is about 80 times the mass of Jupiter. Anything smaller than this would be a Brown Dwarf, an extremely massive planet rather than a star.

The planet Neptune, 19 times less massive than Jupiter, was discovered solely from the pull it was exerting on Uranus from 10 times further apart than the earth's distance from the Sun. Any object massive enough to be a star and close enough to be orbiting/co-orbiting the Sun would be immediately detected by its effects on dozens of other objects throughout the outer solar system.

Something in the Brown Dwarf or Gas Giant category could conceivably be in a very distant orbit, but that would simply be another planet, not a binary companion.

We can also look at the question from another viewpoint: Brightness. The dimmest possible stars are normally Red Dwarfs and White Dwarfs. We are able to detect objects in the solar system as dim as a "+20" apparent magnitude reliably; the dimmest possible white dwarf based on the age of the universe is a +20 at 100 light years distance, so even the dimmest possible star within a light year would have been found long ago and observations of it over even a year or two would have shown that it was orbiting the Sun.

Edit: Apparent magnitude for the dimmest possible star would be, absolute worst, +5 - since that's what Proxima Centauri's brightness is from 4 light years away, and it's about the dimmest it could be already - but we'll be unrealistically optimistic about the potential for a binary and say a much dimmer star was our binary. Even if that was the case, human eyeballs can (just barely) pick out +5 magnitude objects; The planet Uranus is never that bright from Earth. In the centuries since telescopes came into use we'd have found the binary.

Edited July 24, 2013 by khyron42

[Brabbit1987]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedorminey/2013/03/31/sun-may-still-have-low-mass-solar-companion-say-astrophysicists-searching-nasa-wise-mission-data/

Though this does kinda suck as it means it is back to the drawing board with the recurring extinctions that happen on earth and what causes it. It would have made our star system about 20% cooler.

Since for the most part the answer to this thread has been given, what do people think about the extinctions that seem to happen every 26 million years? Any idea on what might cause it?

Edited July 24, 2013 by Brabbit1987

[khyron42]

That's a completely different question. Is it worth a separate thread, or continue it here?

Material to start that discussion either way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_extinction

From that material, there doesn't seem to be much evidence for a fixed 26 million year cycle. The most recent mass extinctions found in the fossil record are: current day, (I'm going to ignore the oceans-only 2 million year ago one), 14.5 million years ago, 33.9 million years ago, the Big One 66 million years ago, and then one at 117 million years ago. That's closer to supporting a 33 million year cycle than a 26 million year one. Meteor impacts and massive volcanic events are considered the likely causes of all of those recent ones except the current one, which is due to "human activity" in the last 50000 years or so.

It's a little freaky to reflect on human beings cultivating crops for, at the minimum, the last 10000 years; and hunting large land animals to extinction starting 50000 years ago. Time scales like that are utterly outside our daily lives but very real for the species as a whole.

[astropapi1]

The planet Neptune, 19 times less massive than Jupiter, was discovered solely from the pull it was exerting on Uranus from 10 times further apart than the earth's distance from the Sun.

I'm trying really hard to contain my inner 10yo kid, but I'm failing terribly to do so.

[khyron42]

Go on, let him out, so we can move on to "your mom" jokes. Side note: In Russian black holes are called "frozen stars" instead, because black hole meant the same thing that Uranus means to your 10-year-old... not that I'm getting a head start on the "yo mamma so heavy" jokes or anything. =)

And, on that note, I'm just gonna go back to General Discussion for a bit!

[CoriW]

I'm trying really hard to contain my inner 10yo kid, but I'm failing terribly to do so.

There's a trick I use to avoid that "inner 10yo kid", and it is as follows...

Rather than pronouncing it ur-a-nus, pronounce it ur-ah-nus, problem solved!

I've seen many scientists call it by the latter, maybe they're also trying to hide their inner 10 year old kid! xD

[NovaSilisko]

There's a trick I use to avoid that "inner 10yo kid", and it is as follows...

Rather than pronouncing it ur-a-nus, pronounce it ur-ah-nus, problem solved!

I've seen many scientists call it by the latter, maybe they're also trying to hide their inner 10 year old kid! xD

Because that's the correct pronunciation. Actually, if you want to go even more proper the original pronunciation was oo-rin-us IIRC.

[khyron42]

Or they could have stuck with one of the original proposed names, "George" and "Herschel". Imagine that one - Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, George, Neptune.

Come to think of it, King George III was kind of a... well, inner 10-year-old joke. Us rebellious colonists might have a biased view on that one though.

[Hammaneggs]

There is this crazy theory that we have a dim brown dwarf or possibly very small red dwarf companion star (called "Nemesis") which is responsible for what proponents claim is a periodic bombardment of the solar system by comets disturbed from their orbits in the Oort cloud. No such star has been seen in the surveys I mentioned, either. It falls in the same category as Vulcan, Planet X, and the supposed "anti-Earth" that was proposed might orbit exactly opposite the Sun from us: I call this category the Looney Bin.

I agree it is crazy. As explained in a recent issue of National Geographic the periodic bombardment had/has something to do with the slight changes of the orbits of gas giants.

[PakledHostage]

All this talk about our "inner 10yo kid" does remind me of a joke about how Star Trek's Enterprise is like toilet paper...

[Hint: The answer involves the aforementioned planet and Klingons]

Sorry. Couldn't resist...

[CoriW]

Because that's the correct pronunciation. Actually, if you want to go even more proper the original pronunciation was oo-rin-us IIRC.

Good to know, thanks for clearing that up Nova!

[magnemoe]

That's a completely different question. Is it worth a separate thread, or continue it here?

Material to start that discussion either way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_extinction

From that material, there doesn't seem to be much evidence for a fixed 26 million year cycle. The most recent mass extinctions found in the fossil record are: current day, (I'm going to ignore the oceans-only 2 million year ago one), 14.5 million years ago, 33.9 million years ago, the Big One 66 million years ago, and then one at 117 million years ago. That's closer to supporting a 33 million year cycle than a 26 million year one. Meteor impacts and massive volcanic events are considered the likely causes of all of those recent ones except the current one, which is due to "human activity" in the last 50000 years or so.

It's a little freaky to reflect on human beings cultivating crops for, at the minimum, the last 10000 years; and hunting large land animals to extinction starting 50000 years ago. Time scales like that are utterly outside our daily lives but very real for the species as a whole.

Think the 33, 64, 140, 210 can make up some sort of trend but an follower stat sounds unlikely. Even something like an brown dwarf can not be to far away or it would be removed by other stars passing close during all the billions of years.

One possibility might be an Uranus sized object who orbital plane rotates passes trough the main orbital plane of the solar system every 26 million years this way it don't have to orbit an light year from the sun.

One correction, we are not in an mass extinction. Or in short name some species who has gone extinct the last 100 years.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/extinct-animals-in-the-last-100-years.html is one list, not an list I will call an mass extinction even if they should not gone extinct.

It also forget the main reason for an species going extinct today. Other species especially cats and dogs are introduced to islands and kill off local specialized animals like flightless birds, an naturally process in it self however it happen fast as humans has transported animals around a lot.

Previously hunting was an important reason, largest was probably then humans entered america back in the stone age and killed off lots of the unique animals on the continent.

[Brabbit1987]

Wow, So many people who are unable to even stay on a topic. Inner 10 year old or not, try and stay on topic please, and if you can't then please don't post. We really don't need an entire thread of Uranus jokes. If you disagree, then may I suggest you are in the wrong forum and you should head on over to the junkyard?

Think the 33, 64, 140, 210 can make up some sort of trend but an follower stat sounds unlikely. Even something like an brown dwarf can not be to far away or it would be removed by other stars passing close during all the billions of years.

One possibility might be an Uranus sized object who orbital plane rotates passes trough the main orbital plane of the solar system every 26 million years this way it don't have to orbit an light year from the sun.

One correction, we are not in an mass extinction. Or in short name some species who has gone extinct the last 100 years.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/extinct-animals-in-the-last-100-years.html is one list, not an list I will call an mass extinction even if they should not gone extinct.

It also forget the main reason for an species going extinct today. Other species especially cats and dogs are introduced to islands and kill off local specialized animals like flightless birds, an naturally process in it self however it happen fast as humans has transported animals around a lot.

Previously hunting was an important reason, largest was probably then humans entered america back in the stone age and killed off lots of the unique animals on the continent.

It's just pretty crazy when you think about that there is something causing these mass extinctions in earths history. It get even more odd when we don't find anything that could be causing it. Since they confirmed there was no brown dwarf out there with the WISE data, they are now searching for an object that is 1 - 2x the mass of Jupiter to see if that turns up anything.

lol what if they do not find anything at all? I think most scientists would be stumped. Although, from what I hear, apparently there is evidence that there is some type of gravitation force out there. Which pretty much means, it would be super weird to find nothing at all.

[magnemoe]

It's just pretty crazy when you think about that there is something causing these mass extinctions in earths history. It get even more odd when we don't find anything that could be causing it. Since they confirmed there was no brown dwarf out there with the WISE data, they are now searching for an object that is 1 - 2x the mass of Jupiter to see if that turns up anything.

lol what if they do not find anything at all? I think most scientists would be stumped. Although, from what I hear, apparently there is evidence that there is some type of gravitation force out there. Which pretty much means, it would be super weird to find nothing at all.

Quite possible they don't find anything. Might be random, I see 250,200, 65, and an weaker at 150 and 30. However 180 is almost as strong, same is the period from 225 to 200. Going back to 350 things events like the dinosaur killer was every 20 million years so the good news is that its going weaker.

Fewer rouge asteroids and comets earth cooling down, however more probably that the ecosystem is far more robust than it was 350 million year ago.

[Brabbit1987]

Quite possible they don't find anything. Might be random, I see 250,200, 65, and an weaker at 150 and 30. However 180 is almost as strong, same is the period from 225 to 200. Going back to 350 things events like the dinosaur killer was every 20 million years so the good news is that its going weaker.

Fewer rouge asteroids and comets earth cooling down, however more probably that the ecosystem is far more robust than it was 350 million year ago.

Ya that very well could be a possibility, maybe we just are reading into the data too much. However, I personally do not think so. I just have a feeling the extinction rate would be a little more steady. Also the graph doesn't look all that random either. Course I am not going by the mass extinction spikes. The graph as a whole just isn't all that random, each little pike is about the same distance apart.

[nyrath]

Side note: In Russian black holes are called "frozen stars" instead, because black hole meant the same thing that Uranus means to your 10-year-old...

Alas, as it turns out that is an urban legend, propagated by Jerry Pournelle

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.arts.sf.written/E1OSDY6JrRs

[dharak1]

I heard there are issues with Neptune's orbit too and that prompted the search for something beyond it but they only found Pluto but it's too small.

[Flixxbeatz]

The planet Neptune, 19 times less massive than Jupiter, was discovered solely from the pull it was exerting on Uranus from 10 times further apart than the earth's distance from the Sun.

So it means that Neptune was discovered from the gravity it was exerting from my a- ughh. oh. okay. not that one...

[PringleMan]

Here is a logic test for whether or not we would be able to see a brown dwarf star that was a companion to our own:

Can we detect extra-solar planets: Check

Have we even been able to detect them other than gravitational influences: check

Would a brown dwarf be more massive than a super-jupiter: Check

Are these exo-planets more than a couple ly away?: Check

Would "Nemesis" be less than a couple LY away: CHECK

I am sure you are seeing where I am going with this. If we have not found a brown dwarf companion to the sun by now, we are not going to. The only good mitigating circumstance that would prevent discovery would be a dust cloud with extremely high extinction, but that would also block out background stars which we would notice. The fact of the matter is that idea came up when they were starting to be able to see the minute gravitational wobbles caused by the extreme outer bodies, but had not discovered them. Now that we know about Neptune, Pluto, Haumea, Make Make, etc. it becomes pretty clear that we had just assumed that Uranus was the end of the planets and other large bodies and did not think of the possibility of there being more out there.

And before anyone screams, obviously the combined mass of all outer-solar system bodies is peanuts compared to what the mass of a brown dwarf would be which further throws a wrench in the idea.

[PakledHostage]

And there are other possible explanations for the apparent periodicity of impact events. We don't need to invoke undiscovered planets, brown dwarfs, or Klingons trying to bombard us from beyond Uranus...

One possible cause is the gravitational influence of the galaxy's plane on Oort cloud objects. Our solar system passes through the plane of the Milky Way galaxy every 30 million years or so. The gravitational effect may be enough to send Oort cloud objects into the inner solar system. Check out the American Scientist article "Perturbing the Oort Cloud". There's some interesting stuff in there.

Edited July 24, 2013 by PakledHostage

[jfk173]

Try this link: http://www.sott.net/article/230480-Is-the-Sun-Part-of-a-Binary-Star-System-Six-Reasons-to-Consider

[NovaSilisko]

Try this link: http://www.sott.net/article/230480-Is-the-Sun-Part-of-a-Binary-Star-System-Six-Reasons-to-Consider

I kind of have an inherent distrust for anything like this being used to sell a book... it seems to exude an attitude of "look, established science is wrong! buy my book and find out why!"

[K^2]

In Russian black holes are called "frozen stars" instead, because black hole meant the same thing that Uranus means to your 10-year-old...

No, they are not. Russian for black hole is "чõрýðѠôырð," which literally means "black hole". You might be thinking of some other language, but it's definitely not Russian.