Is MechJeb cheating?

[Zerro]

Greetings,

This has probably been discussed elsewhere so just point me in the right direction if it has.

I was doing some practice runs, trying to get my heavy space station modules into space. The mission either ended in failure or I didn't have a 0inclination orbit. I then decided to see what the MechJeb autopilot controls were like. MechJeb pretty much did all the work from lift-off, to stabilizing orbit, to rendezvousing with the space station. I didn't have to do anything except build the ship and input some data into MechJeb. So what's the point? Am I really playing this game to its fullest if I'm just letting the AI do all the work? Kind of feels like creative mode in Minecraft or using savestates on an emulator.

This was my first time using the autopiloting features just to test them out and see how much better they were to manual controls. I don't know if I will be really using it much in the future. I would like to try and do everything on my own.

So I'm just curious as to what others think about MechJeb

[fatfluffycat]

Its not cheating, its a single player game...

[KhaosCorp]

If it is NASA cheats their asses off =)

In my humble opinion MechJeb is best used as a teaching aid for new pilots, and later as pilot assistance computer. I learned some of the finer points to certain manuvers from watching MJ autopilots go though the motions as it were.

I will say this, ALOT of stuff ingame is more fun and rewarding when you pilot the mission yourself.

Edited August 4, 2013 by KhaosCorp

[milankragujevic]

For me it depends. If I want to get stuff done I use mechjeb. If I want to have fun I manually. If I'm building a lunar base, I use mechjeb as the launch and rendzevous and docking and transfer and landing is increadibly boring. Also I get angry if something fails and I have wasted time.

[Boakamxe]

Its not cheating, its a single player game...

I don't like this strawman being used instead of actual criticism.

[HeadHunter67]

Fine, then the question is: "Cheating whom?" In a single-player game, there can be only one possible answer - oneself.

The follow up question, then, is: "Cheating oneself out of what?" Since most people play a game for fun, I submit that if MechJeb does not hinder one's enjoyment, it cannot be "cheating". Since each player is the sole and final arbiter of his or her own enjoyment and definition of fun, no one else can claim that using MJ is "cheating".

How's that for your "strawman"?

[whatisthisidonteven]

If it is NASA cheats their asses off =)

In my humble opinion MechJeb is best used as a teaching aid for new pilots, and later as pilot assistance computer. I learned some of the finer points to certain manuvers from watching MJ autopilots go though the motions as it were.

I will say this, ALOT of stuff ingame is more fun and rewarding when you pilot the mission yourself.

That first line really doesn't make sense.

All you do when you say stuff like that is downplaying the achievements of the real space agencies "Oh yeah they just downloaded mechjeb and hit go no big deal". If you want a slightly more realistic autopilot system try out Progcom and program your own flight instructions for every mission. Space agencies do not just download a program off the internet and hit go and watch as their rocket magically gets to orbit. Not to mention that real space agencies are dealing with rockets worth millions of real dollars, real human lives, precious cargo, sometimes years of planning and their funding (Disasters means bad PR which means less funding and popularity). It is incredibly important for them that nothing goes wrong. But KSP? Not so much, you can just revert your flight and it'll be like nothing ever happened and there is no negative effects to failing a mission anyway.

Mechjeb is also a poor learning aid for several reasons, the greatest example being that it doesn't actually teach you anything. You might copy it when it does say, a gravity turn. But you don't know what you're doing or why you're doing it. You're just copying what mechjeb did. The only way to truly learn is to look into it yourself. No to mention that people have a tendency of never letting go of mechjeb and just using it as a crutch as evidenced on a certain person's stream (I'm not going to name anyone). He claimed all day that he could do all of these tasks, but when he actually came to try he just couldn't do it. Maybe in the past he could, but he obviously forgot how because he has grown to be so dependent on mechjeb. This is why you shouldn't advocate the use of mechjeb as a learning aid, rather you should encourage people to actually play the game and figure out these things for themselves.

In the end, yeah, it's a singleplayer sandbox and you are fully entitled to do whatever you want, and I'm not going to hate you just because you choose to use mechjeb. Just don't forget that everyone is also entitled to their opinion of you and mechjeb. Here's a good post by Maxmaps on the issue that probably explains it better than I can

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/showthread.php/44007-OMG-we-re-not-worthy!?p=563416#post563416

Edited August 4, 2013 by whatisthisidonteven

[HeadHunter67]

...And anyone who cares about other people's opinions of something like this is wasting their time over nothing. Why should I care what you think of how I play?

It's quite presumptuous of you to tell people what they "should do", don't you think?

And the NASA point is valid - there's only been one mission I can think of in the history of the American space program where the crew had to freehand it without computer support - and that was Apollo 13. Even then, they still got course corrections and flight data by radio from CAPCOM - who calculated this on a computer. So yes, MechJeb is actually the closest thing to the sort of computerized flight assistance that NASA crews have had available to them for decades. And that course data is typically not calculated by astronauts in-flight - it's done and set by ground control prior to launch.

So I guess I'm just failing to see your point - and sadly, this thread is going to go down the same road as every other MJ thread, with the same arguments on either side and nothing new. Time to close this, I'd say.

[TMS]

Inbeforethelock.

[Kyne]

It's not exactly 'cheating', but I wouldn't call playing KSP exclusively on MJ 'playing' either. It's inciteful to see it performing the more complicated maneuvers, and it's infinitely more accurate when docking/landing than I ever will. However, using it to get to everywhere; launch, rendezvous and landing, just never gets that sense of satisfaction of 'I did it' that you can with sheer manual control. It's probably better off learning how to drive manual before automatic (yes, like a car =P), in the case that MJ goes nuts (which it inevitably will), so you can correct the ridiculous spin that RoboJeb made and make sure that poor flesh and bone Jeb doesn't fly straight into the nearest solar orbit.

I love MechJeb. It can dock and launch my mega-rockets all day, but in the end it's still a crutch. Does that make it cheating? No. But it isn't good sportsmanship to use it for everything that you can do yourself.

[hoojiwana]

And the NASA point is valid - there's only been one mission I can think of in the history of the American space program where the crew had to freehand it without computer support - and that was Apollo 13.

You should go look up Mercury-Atlas 9, also known as Faith 7. Gordon Cooper changed the way NASA thought about design philosophy based upon how he saved the mission, and his own life.

Here's a great quote from him about what he did:

"So I used my wrist watch for time," he later recalled, "my eyeballs out the window for attitude. Then I fired my retrorockets at the right time and landed right by the carrier."

[whatisthisidonteven]

...And anyone who cares about other people's opinions of something like this is wasting their time over nothing. Why should I care what you think of how I play?

It's quite presumptuous of you to tell people what they "should do", don't you think?

And the NASA point is valid - there's only been one mission I can think of in the history of the American space program where the crew had to freehand it without computer support - and that was Apollo 13. Even then, they still got course corrections and flight data by radio from CAPCOM - who calculated this on a computer. So yes, MechJeb is actually the closest thing to the sort of computerized flight assistance that NASA crews have had available to them for decades. And that course data is typically not calculated by astronauts in-flight - it's done and set by ground control prior to launch.

So I guess I'm just failing to see your point - and sadly, this thread is going to go down the same road as every other MJ thread, with the same arguments on either side and nothing new. Time to close this, I'd say.

I'm not saying you have to, I'm saying that I am still entitled to my opinion.

Like I said, try out Progcom if you want a more realistic experience. You get to program the flight path manually and individually for every different rocket, just like real life! Also while we're arguing for realism, why don't we add realistically scaled planets and have proper life support, ncluding stuff like mental health and effects of radiation/zero G? What about consequences for messing up? No, not just losing some money, I'm talking your space program being irreversibly damaged and stuff. Exactly, you don't want realism, you're hiding your need to use mechjeb behind the curtain of "realism".

And looks like Hoojiwana beat me to it

You should go look up Mercury-Atlas 9, also known as Faith 7. Gordon Cooper changed the way NASA thought about design philosophy based upon how he saved the mission, and his own life.

Here's a great quote from him about what he did:

Read up on that.

Edited August 4, 2013 by whatisthisidonteven

[Mr Shifty]

This has probably been discussed elsewhere

Bingo. This topic comes up on a daily basis. Do a search for MechJeb and have fun reading every possible opinion one could possibly have on the subject. These threads inevitably end up in flame wars, locked by the mods. Please, it's not necessary to add one more tired old log to the flames.

[HeadHunter67]

Does that make it cheating? No. But it isn't good sportsmanship to use it for everything that you can do yourself.

"Sportsmanship" implies an opponent, against whom one must play fairly. That isn't the case in a single-player game.

You should go look up Mercury-Atlas 9, also known as Faith 7. Gordon Cooper changed the way NASA thought about design philosophy based upon how he saved the mission, and his own life.

We're not talking about landing from orbit, we're talking about things like navigating to the Moon or beyond.

I'm not saying you have to, I'm saying that I am still entitled to my opinion.

You're entitled to your opinion about whether or not you use the mod. You're not entitled to your opinion of others based on how they use it - or more accurately, your opinion of how others play their own game is irrelevant. You know what they say about opinions, after all...

[Boakamxe]

Bingo. This topic comes up on a daily basis. Do a search for MechJeb and have fun reading every possible opinion one could possibly have on the subject. These threads inevitably end up in flame wars, locked by the mods. Please, it's not necessary to add one more tired old log to the flames.

This isn't flaming, it's actual criticism from both sides.

[decman117]

"Sportsmanship" implies an opponent, against whom one must play fairly. That isn't the case in a single-player game.

There is an opponent in challenges. In that case, it would be bad sportsmanship to use it.

We're not talking about landing from orbit, we're talking about things like navigating to the Moon or beyond.

I thought the discussion was about MechJeb, which includes landing guidance, so it's still relevant.

[whatisthisidonteven]

We're not talking about landing from orbit, we're talking about things like navigating to the Moon or beyond.

You never stated that. You're just moving the goalposts now.

You're entitled to your opinion about whether or not you use the mod. You're not entitled to your opinion of others based on how they use it - or more accurately, your opinion of how others play their own game is irrelevant. You know what they say about opinions, after all...

I am perfectly entitled to my opinion of you actually, as long as I am not expressing it in a way that's against the rules. Sure, my opinion may not matter to you, but I'm putting it out there nonetheless because this isn't just a private discussion, everyone can read it for themselves.

[dave4002000]

This isn't flaming, it's actual criticism from both sides.

He's not saying this thread, in particular. He's talking about the hundreds of other "is mechjeb cheating" threads that have been made since mechjeb was introduced. Some people take on a 'holier than thou' attitude because they don't use mechjeb and feel the need to post in every thread regarding the subject which, in turn, ends up with the thread being locked.

[hoojiwana]

Some people take on a 'holier than thou' attitude because they don't use mechjeb and feel the need to post in every thread regarding the subject which, in turn, ends up with the thread being locked.

The same attitude is present on both sides of the MechJeb "argument".

[whatisthisidonteven]

He's not saying this thread, in particular. He's talking about the hundreds of other "is mechjeb cheating" threads that have been made since mechjeb was introduced. Some people take on a 'holier than thou' attitude because they don't use mechjeb and feel the need to post in every thread regarding the subject which, in turn, ends up with the thread being locked.

We are giving nothing but rational arguments to support what we say. People like you who just resort to attacks on the other side are the reason the threads get locked, actually.

[HeadHunter67]

Fair enough - and I am equally entitled to my opinion of you. The fact of the matter is, it doesn't change how either of us plays the game. To me, you're just words on a page - why on Earth would I feel a need to validate myself based on the "opinion" of a stranger? That's not a healthy way to go through life.

But this shouldn't be about our opinions of each other - as they say, "address the issue, not the individual".

No one has yet to refute my original point - in a single-player game, the player is the sole arbiter of his or her enjoyment, and thus cannot possibly cheat against himself or herself. Are you having fun? If yes, then what does it matter what others think?

Spare me from self-important people who think they should get to decide how others live their lives.

[42undead2]

This subject could as well be about ice cream. ''1F U D0NT L1K VANILA U SUK!'' It's the same thing really.

[Boakamxe]

This subject could as well be about ice cream. ''1F U D0NT L1K VANILA U SUK!'' It's the same thing really.

Downgrading criticisms into incoherent babble is not a good way to approach this.

[HeadHunter67]

I think he's already articulated his stand on the issue in his sig, so he's got a point.

[whatisthisidonteven]

Fair enough - and I am equally entitled to my opinion of you. The fact of the matter is, it doesn't change how either of us plays the game. To me, you're just words on a page - why on Earth would I feel a need to validate myself based on the "opinion" of a stranger? That's not a healthy way to go through life.

Indeed you are. And like I already said, whether you care is something I don't take into account when I write my posts. I'm putting it out there for everyone to see, not just you.

But this shouldn't be about our opinions of each other - as they say, "address the issue, not the individual".

No one has yet to refute my original point - in a single-player game, the player is the sole arbiter of his or her enjoyment, and thus cannot possibly cheat against himself or herself. Are you having fun? If yes, then what does it matter what others think?

The only points I have argued are that mechjeb is nothing like what NASA uses, that it's a poor teaching tool and that people tend to end up relying on it like a crutch. Nowhere have I argued that it's cheating - Hell, I already said you are free to use whatever you want in a singleplayer sandbox environment. I am just giving my opinion on mechjeb, just as you have done.

Spare me from self-important people who think they should get to decide how others live their lives.

Your post could have done without this line, which seems like it was just put there just to rile people up.

This subject could as well be about ice cream. ''1F U D0NT L1K VANILA U SUK!'' It's the same thing really.

Thank you for that quality argument.

Edited August 4, 2013 by whatisthisidonteven