Why the Hate Towards Mods

[Tiron]

It's just another incarnation of elitism, and it actually goes both ways. As evidenced by a few people in here denigrating the 'no-mods' people.

The key thing that differentiates this type of person is that they're seeking to make themselves appear 'Superior' to some group of people because they do something 'Better' than the people in that group. They may say it's actually about the challenge, but if they're waving it around and using it to insist that they're 'Better' than someone else...well, they're at least partially lying.

It comes down to insecurity. They try to make themselves feel better by trying to make other people look worse. It's just a different, less impactful form of bullying, really.

If 'the challenge' is what they were concerned about, they wouldn't feel the need to denigrate the accomplishments of others. I can also say from personal experience that if 'the challenge' is what you're worried about, you equally don't feel the need to cheat, and actually find it undesirable because it removes much or all of the challenge.

Which is why it was funny when I read an article once basically claiming that I was the only person on the internet that has never cheated in multiplayer. The article said pretty much flat out that EVERYONE had at some point. Knowing with a certainty that I never had because I never saw the point AND don't find succeeding by cheating enjoyable... made it slightly comedic.

[PotatoOverdose]

It's just another incarnation of elitism, and it actually goes both ways. As evidenced by a few people in here denigrating the 'no-mods' people.

The key thing that differentiates this type of person is that they're seeking to make themselves appear 'Superior' to some group of people because they do something 'Better' than the people in that group. They may say it's actually about the challenge, but if they're waving it around and using it to insist that they're 'Better' than someone else...well, they're at least partially lying.

It comes down to insecurity. They try to make themselves feel better by trying to make other people look worse. It's just a different, less impactful form of bullying, really.

If 'the challenge' is what they were concerned about, they wouldn't feel the need to denigrate the accomplishments of others. I can also say from personal experience that if 'the challenge' is what you're worried about, you equally don't feel the need to cheat, and actually find it undesirable because it removes much or all of the challenge.

Which is why it was funny when I read an article once basically claiming that I was the only person on the internet that has never cheated in multiplayer. The article said pretty much flat out that EVERYONE had at some point. Knowing with a certainty that I never had because I never saw the point AND don't find succeeding by cheating enjoyable... made it slightly comedic.

What about those people whose computers can't handle all the extra memory and computational resources that extensive modding requires? Are they elitist too for asking for stock solutions, since that's all they can use without taking a significant performance hit?

[Captain Sierra]

Personally, outside pressure doesn't bother me. It annoys me that some people are so overly opinionated on the matter, particularly on the stock (and even more specifically, non-MechJeb) side. The one thing that I notice is a seemingly high concentration of stock parts only challenges. Don't get me wrong, I see plenty of mod challenges, but stock only (especially MechJeb hating) challenges seem to be predominant, which, at times, is annoying,

[Tiron]

What about those people whose computers can't handle all the extra memory and computational resources that extensive modding requires? Are they elitist too for asking for stock solutions, since that's all they can use without taking a significant performance hit?

You should really read better:

... it actually goes both ways. As evidenced by a few people in here denigrating the 'no-mods' people.

The key thing that differentiates this type of person is that they're seeking to make themselves appear 'Superior' to some group of people because they do something 'Better' than the people in that group. ...

I never said or even IMPLIED that everyone that insists on going 'all stock' is an elitist. I myself, for example, have tended to go rather light on mods because I found many of the parts packs to be unbalanced, lacking in things necessary to do things the way I want to do them (a problem I'm STILL dealing with now that I'm really giving B9 a serious shot, I'm on the verge of deleting it again at the moment,) or simply not seeing the point.

The key is to some extent why you're doing it, but it's mostly behavior. If you're going around on the forums bashing on people for using or not using one or more mods, claiming that your preferred stance makes you superior, you're an elitist.

Denigrating other people based on what they do or don't do in the game makes you an elitist, regardless of how you play the game and why.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Tiron

[regex]

Those mods (kethane, FAR, airship) are popular, and reasonably well balanced. But they also take much of the challenge out of an Eve ascent, and as such do not have a common frame of reference for comparison with stock eve ascent missions.

Then don't compare modded experiences to stock experiences. If you can't offer critique or help because you have no knowledge of the mod then there is no reason to even post a response to those players; let others who (can) share those experiences help.

Now, when it comes to challenges I am a big proponent of the usage of a stock install because it ensures a relatively level playing field.

[PotatoOverdose]

Then don't compare modded experiences to stock experiences. If you can't offer critique or help because you have no knowledge of the mod then there is no reason to even post a response to those players; let others who (can) share those experiences help.

Now, when it comes to challenges I am a big proponent of the usage of a stock install because it ensures a relatively level playing field.

I agree 100%. That's why, imo, "I just use stock parts" shouldn't offend anyone and shouldn't be considered derisive toward mod users. Hence my first point, stock parts provide a common frame of reference. Nor should it ever be considered elitism. It's just people playing the way they want to/are able to.

[Tiron]

I agree 100%. That's why, imo, "I just use stock parts" shouldn't offend anyone and shouldn't be considered derisive toward mod users. Hence my first point, stock parts provide a common frame of reference. Nor should it ever be considered elitism. It's just people playing the way they want to/are able to.

In and of itself using only stock parts or even saying you only use stock parts, is NOT elitism. Saying that you're BETTER because you only use stock parts is what's elitism.

Unfortunately that's the usual reason why people say it: "I'm better than you because I play all stock." Even if not outright stated it's frequently implied.

And that, ultimately, is what the thread is about. Not people that go all-stock because they prefer it that way, but people who condescendingly sneer at mod-users. It's 'Why the Hate Towards Mods' not 'Why do some people not use mods'.

[Temstar]

Even if not outright stated it's frequently implied.

Implied elitism? Now that's going a bit far don't you think? Yes I'm sure there are stock purists that bash mod users due to insecurity. But at the same time if you're going to interpret any statements along the lines of "oh I'm not aware of this roll issue with my craft because I don't use mechjeb and launch by hand" as an attack on mod users, is that not also a sign of insecurity projecting onto others?

[GDJ]

I use both stock and modded parts. I build what I want with both, and they perform fine for me.

Bottom line: It's your copy of the game. We all paid Squad, and we can do as we like with it. Keep it stock, use some mods, use all the mods. Whatever suits you fancy.

[wakairyu]

i would just like to state that in the original ( discussion posted ) the mech jeb auto pilot get's refereed to a lot. I personally think that KSP dev's should have added an auto-pilot into the game from the very beginning. because as KSP moves towards more and more realistic features.

Imagine in real time now, if each and every one of us where rocket builders, and astronauts. Not one of us will leave the launch pad under manual control. Every vessel left our earth has been under the command of an auto-pilot, yes later in the flight that may take over manual control but that is for a minimal amount of time, because a computer error is 99% less likely than a human error.

also, I agree completely with original posting, every mod that has been created ( that I use ) is simply an addition to game play, making it more interesting, fun, experimental, & so much more. so for all of the people that say that mods are ' cheating ' , ' bad ' , ' boring ' , ' cheating ' , ' uninteresting ' & ' ruin game play '. I think that they are the boring, and do not realize the potential that the universe holds of only they ksp dev's could have added in 3/4 of the modding community it would make the game 200% better

This ends my contribution to this conversation.

Cheers, Ryan.

[little square dot]

Why do people insult mods?

Inability to accept that others may have differing preferences. It's simply immaturity; ignore it.

[Tiron]

Implied elitism? Now that's going a bit far don't you think? Yes I'm sure there are stock purists that bash mod users due to insecurity. But at the same time if you're going to interpret any statements along the lines of "oh I'm not aware of this roll issue with my craft because I don't use mechjeb and launch by hand" as an attack on mod users, is that not also a sign of insecurity projecting onto others?

Well that's the sticky part, because motive does enter into it somewhat, and that's almost impossible to judge. Some people do like to try to be a little more subtle about it, but usually only to a point.

A couple examples I've seen that are at least pushing it this way:

"I Fly Pure Stock" underneath a Ribbon Salad bar.

'Kerbin Circumnavigation Challenge - Reloaded':

-KSPX, NovaPunch and KW Challenger are the ONLY part add-ons that can be used.

-Any kinds of plugins (no matter what the use is) are NOT allowed. (Rule a bit 'laxed now, since I have accepted entries with Kerbal Alarm Clock and Crew Manifest, so any future entries using those plugins will now be added. The All-plugin ban are STILL in effect, though)

I circumnavigated multiple times with a plane that only had an ISA Mapsat GPS and a Mechjeb AR-202 on it for non-stock parts. Even if I took them off and did it manually (which would've been a major pain in the butt before the new SAS), I still technically wouldn't be eligible simply because they're INSTALLED(Although he wouldn't know that from screenshots.) The current version of the plane has multiwheels landing gear as well. All things that don't affect the ability of the plane to fly at all.

The all stock version of it I uploaded on spaceport could do it no sweat, but the sheer asininity of a blanket mod ban rankles too much to bother doing it. There's a reason there's two circumnavigation challenges.

Edit: I forgot to mention, the title might not say as much, but the image at the top of the thread says 'ELITE CIRCUMNAVIGATOR' with a device in the middle. Some people put it next to their salad bar.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Tiron

[Temstar]

"I Fly Pure Stock" underneath a Ribbon Salad bar.

What's wrong with this? There are mods that make the stock game harder, but there are even more mods that make it easier. Even if mod parts are balanced against stock the fact that they exist gives you more options in designing your sure than all stock. So someone who's earned a whole load of ribbons all stock indeed have earned a bigger achievement than say, someone who earned the same amount of ribbons using Orion drive in addition to all the stock parts. The two achievements are just not comparable. So the guy who did it all stock certainly does deserve more props. My ribbons are earned with the help of KER and protractor, I'm not going to argue that "oh but these two are information only mods and therefore my achievement are as great as if I did it all stock" - I freely admit that whoever can earn these ribbons all stock had done something more impressive than me. On the other hand I'm not going to lose sleep just because someone can proudly boost that that they earn ribbons stock where as I can't.

Challenges banning mods are all fair game, since that's the whole point of having rules in challenges - you play by the rule and try to score the highest points so that high scores can be compared. Challenges are not about trying to bend the rules so your existing craft can enter them with no additional effort required, if you don't like the rules of the challenges don't enter and start your own.

[Tiron]

What's wrong with this? There are mods that make the stock game harder, but there are even more mods that make it easier. Even if mod parts are balanced against stock the fact that they exist gives you more options in designing your sure than all stock

It highly depends on the mods you use and how you use them. Doing it all stock is frequently harder, but mostly it's in the realm of what TV Tropes calls 'Fake Difficulty'.

Protractor, or some external tool or resource providing the same functionality, is almost NECCESSARY to do interplanetary at all, because the current UI doesn't help at all in determining when and where you need to burn to reach your target. It's a case of the UI being deficient, presumably because it's unfinished, rather than actually adding extra difficulty.

Most other informationals aren't strictly necessary: It's always possible to just eyeball it, and that's how I landed on Duna the first time: I took my Mun lander that had way, way more Delta-V than it needed and brute-forced it to Duna (with some help from the Protractor).

And the simple fact is, if you really wanna cheat your way through the game? I could make a copy of a LV-T45 with the stats of the real-life J-2X. Thrust halfway between a Skipper and a Mainsail, Isp a bit better than a LV-909, weight a bit less than a poodle. I could make a LV-N with a tenth the weight, 20 times the thrust, and 50 times the efficiency. I might even be able to make one PRODUCE fuel rather than burn it. (Haven't tried, they may have a check that Kethane's plugin sidesteps.)

You'd never be able to tell any of that from screenshots. The parts would look completely stock, even though they didn't perform that way.

Challenges banning mods are all fair game, since that's the whole point of having rules in challenges

I'm not trying to get the challenge shut down, I'm just saying it has stupid, elitist restrictions. Which it does. Which I don't personally think justify having a second challenge for, which is why I've never bothered entering it. I swear I entered the other one though...don't see it now. Weird.

[AlamoVampire]

Okay, I have a question for all of those who abhor mechjeb for what ever reason. Are you against mechjeb because it makes things like getting into orbit or docking or even setting up interplanetary moves easier or are you against mechjeb solely on the point of it is a mod, and you are waiting for Squad to implement an auto pilot mechanism of their own? Because I am sorry to say, if it is the latter, then, well, you may have a serious problem.

Not happening

The following features have been confirmed to not be in the official game (although may be found in mods):

Autopilot Systems[citation needed]

THAT is taken directly from

http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Planned_features

So, if you guys are hating on MechJeb because squad did not implement it, then, perhaps it is time to re-evaluate your position on this, as, MechJeb looks like it will be our go to autopilot for the very foreseeable future and beyond, as, that link clearly states, a built in Autopilot is not on the 'to do' list. Please, if you hate on mechjeb for some other reason <only calling out the mechjeb haters and not the 'whole mod thing is bad' group> please do explain.

To the aforementioned 'whole mod thing is bad' group: mods make for more options and can custom fit the difficulty to our style, so, please, lay off. To those who cannot run mods because of computer limitations, what is your out side perspective? Just wanting an open discussion is all.

[GDJ]

I have no problem with Mechjeb. I'm just a hands-on person. If someone like Mechjeb, then that's fine with me.

[King Arthur]

What mods I use is my business and mine alone. What mods someone else uses is their business and theirs alone. 'Nuff said.

[HueHue]

As far as I can see, there's a difference between Mechjeb (which is a whole different ballgame I'm not going to really touch on here), Engineer, Protractor, etc etc and modded parts. And there's an even bigger difference between groups of said modded parts. An excellent example of a very balanced (admittedly quite small) parts pack is the RLA Stockalike pack. An excellent example of a very unbalanced mod would be the Orion mod. Is your Jool mission with Orion worth the same as someone else's who uses only stock parts? Let's cut the post-modernism crap for a second. No, it simply isn't. By using parts that are simply superior in every aspect (looking at you, KW Rocketry's Vespa) you dilute the meaning of your achievements.

[King Arthur]

As far as I can see, there's a difference between Mechjeb (which is a whole different ballgame I'm not going to really touch on here), Engineer, Protractor, etc etc and modded parts. And there's an even bigger difference between groups of said modded parts. An excellent example of a very balanced (admittedly quite small) parts pack is the RLA Stockalike pack. An excellent example of a very unbalanced mod would be the Orion mod. Is your Jool mission with Orion worth the same as someone else's who uses only stock parts? Let's cut the post-modernism crap for a second. No, it simply isn't. By using parts that are simply superior in every aspect (looking at you, KW Rocketry's Vespa) you dilute the meaning of your achievements.

On the other hand, why does it matter if someone's achievements are "dilute[d]" because they used mods? KSP is a completely single player game outside of challenges, it should not and does not matter how each individual plays KSP.

[Awaras]

Why does it matter to Player NoMod if Player UseMod uses a mod, especially a Gameplay mod? If a mod enhances or eases Player UseMod's experience, then why does it matter to Player NoMod? For instance, MechJeb auto-docking helps new players who have trouble docking. (On this issue, we often read the smarmy, self-righteous "Learn to do it manually!" or "I docked my first time. It's not that hard." statements.)

I think that most of the objections to MechJeb stem from the fact that it encourages lazy behavior.

It does not HELP a new player to learn how to dock, it does it for them, making it possible to play the game without ever learning even the basics of orbital mechanics.

I used MechJeb a lot for a while, but I quickly grew tired of 'playing' KSP that way. I would let MJ launch my ship into orbit while I would do something else. Basically, I ended up watching MJ play the game for me, and I quickly lost intrest.

Now, I just use MJ for the dV and other data outputs, and sometimes to 'roleplay' the remote piloting of unmanned probes, although I find remotetech is better for this purpose.

However, I can see that some people might enjoy flying all flights with MJ, kind of like being a mission controller on the ground, issuing orders to astronauts and probes. To each his own I guess.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Awaras

[Guest]

I get so tired of "You used Mods X, Y, and Z?! How dare you! I got to Eloo with only a kettle and some string!" Who bloody cares? Play the way you want, and I'll play the way I want. If that is offensive to you in some manner, that's your problem. Don't try to make it mine.

[regex]

I think that most of the objections to MechJeb stem from the fact that it encourages lazy behavior.

Why does that matter? It's a single-player, one-time-pay game, it's not like someone's laziness is ruining your game.

[Monkeh]

Let's be fair here, I can run a 100% stock version of the game. I can open up one text file and make the little orange circular fuel tank weigh 0.000001 and have 100000000000000000 units of fuel.

I can take screenshots of wonderful craft in weird orbits around distant bodies and everyone would be super impressed. Mods just add functionality, limit staleness and/or make people's experiences more fun or take the hassle out of something. If you wanted to cheat it's easy, even I could do it, mods are different.

I'm slowly getting into more and more mods but I'm choosing them carefully. I got the NovaPUnch pack and only put the adaptors parts in because I wanted the bulkheads with the floating attachment points. The engines and tanks I left out. How can anyone hate chatterer for example?

I think it's a case of some people feeling there achievements are paled when someone with a fancy pants engine or mechjeb did something they couldn't do without.

Basically though it is a single player game so nobody should really give two hoots what anybody else gets up to.

Right then, off to do a grand tour with a single engine and orange tubular tank, see ya laters.

[Stone Blue]

I think that most of the objections to MechJeb stem from the fact that it <b>MIGHT</b> encourage lazy behavior.

It does not HELP a new player to learn how to dock, it does it for them, making it possible to play the game without ever learning even the basics of orbital mechanics.

I used MechJeb a lot for a while, but I quickly grew tired of 'playing' KSP that way. I would let MJ launch my ship into orbit while I would do something else. Basically, I ended up watching MJ play the game for me, and I quickly lost intrest.

Now, I just use MJ for the dV and other data outputs, and sometimes to 'roleplay' the remote piloting of unmanned probes, although I find remotetech is better for this purpose.

However, I can see that some people might enjoy flying all flights with MJ, kind of like being a mission controller on the ground, issuing orders to astronauts and probes. To each his own I guess.

I fixed your first comment...

And I think the rest of your comment is too much of a blanket statement, and based solely on YOUR experience.

I have actually been using MJ pretty much since I started playing KSP. KSP IS such very "close-to-reality" simulator...ANd me not being a rocket scientist by trade, basically felt overwhelmed with all the stuff I COULD potentially do, but couldnt because I had no idea HOW to do it or where to start.

In comes MJ...I let MJ pretty much autopilot whatever launch mission I'm doing for the first time, or if I'm using a new payload or lifter for the first time...This way I get to see "supposedly", how to do it. If there are several aspects of the launch that I would need to perform at a certain time, or "numbers" I need to watch for, or several steps that need to be taken, I learn them from watching MJ do it..Then on subsequent launches, I basiclly "ween' myself off MJ, and will take over certain steps or parts of the launch...Until I can do the whole launch, or docking manuever, or whatever, by myself...Then I just use MJ for its info displays, or to calculate difficult manuevers for me.

Also, I see lots of issues with MJ going whacky at times, and not using RCS and fuel efficiently at all...That has actually encouraged me to take over piloting even sooner, just to see if I can do it more efficiently...And it turns out, quite often I CAN.

And yes, there ARE times where I will sit and watch MJ muddle thru a difficult situation, as its just too tedious to do manually, and I have SOOO much more yet to learn and do with KSP, that I'm not about to sit and work out orbital math instead of playing.

Anyway, I see MJ, and other plugins not just as "quick and easy" ways to play the game....I use them as learning tools....Like a teacher, who shows you how to do something first, so you can learn step by step, and eventually do it yourself, and then after the school year, you put away that teacher, since you no longer need that "tool" to do something...

[AlamoVampire]

<snip>.

It does not HELP a new player to learn how to dock, it does it for them, making it possible to play the game without ever learning even the basics of orbital mechanics.

<end snip>.

You sir in that ONE LINE could not be any further away from correct without coming back around. I never could pull off a successful rendezvous and docking no matter how hard I tried. I always ended up either careening passed my target, into it or getting to 10 meters to station keep before completely exhausting every single shred of fuel in the chase vehicle only to then switch vehicles to then screw up again to cause the now 100% adrift vehicle to spin beyond capture lock in docking. Mechjeb taught me to dock proper like. And since I have linked twice now that Squad has no intention of giving us autopilot or any function mechjeb gives us, it is a vital component like it or not.

The post above me is also excellent in its point and equally true in that mechjeb gives us information vital to success with delta V and other information. But NASA uses the same info and more than mechjeb gives us, guess they are lazy too right?

Edited September 11, 2013 by AlamoVampire