What career mode means for mods.

[Paul Kingtiger]

With .22 we're going to have the first proper career mode content and I'm really looking forward to it.

However I'm wondering in what direction modders will go once the game splits into two modes.

I love that Squad are thinking about mods when they design career mode by allow mod parts to fit into the R&D tree and even adding some empty R&D nodes for modders to use. I'll be very interested to see if modders work their parts into the R&D system or focus purely on sandbox.

Are you even planning to use mod parts in career mode or will you be keeping it pure?

[Zeblote]

Integrate the mod parts into career mode obviously! And if they don't have any way to do that, then well screw that, write a plugin that creates the nodes for it!

Edited September 17, 2013 by stupid_chris
please don't mess with the filter

[regex]

I will definitely use mod parts in career and I will also be editing mod parts to better fit into my idea of how the tech tree should look. I might even take the time to create different MechJeb parts with blacklisted features that will progress through the tech tree.

[Akinesis]

Procedural fairings at the very, very least! Dem probes need covering!

[InfiniteDice]

If they leave it open enough for us to play with, most of us will adapt to it. I know I will.

[fatfluffycat]

They left parts of the tech tree open for mods, so yes, we will have mods for career

[Eric S]

I'm also fairly certain that mod parts can attach to nodes other than the ones reserved for mods. If your mod is an engine slightly different than a skipper, then having a separate node in the tech tree for your almost-skipper would be silly, just have both engines dependent on the same node. It's pretty obvious that the existing tech tree isn't one tech for one part, since the number of nodes that they've discussed having in the tree is less than a third the number of stock parts in the game.

[PolecatEZ]

There will most likely be a line or two added to the config file for determining where the part should appear on the tech tree. Without setting this, you will most likely just always have that part available by default. Worst case scenario would be if they had a tech tree config file that referenced your part.

The real nightmare will come once some kind of currency is implemented and cost becomes an issue. We already have modders that can't balance an engine to save their lives, I'd hate to see how badly twisted the logic becomes for making "cheaper parts."

[regex]

The real nightmare will come once some kind of currency is implemented and cost becomes an issue. We already have modders that can't balance an engine to save their lives, I'd hate to see how badly twisted the logic becomes for making "cheaper parts."

I predict a lot of hand-rolled config files, and possibly a few Module Manager configs floating around to correct "inaccuracies".

[Eric S]

There will most likely be a line or two added to the config file for determining where the part should appear on the tech tree.

This part is correct.

Without setting this, you will most likely just always have that part available by default.

This part isn't. If the part doesn't have the line in the config file making it dependent on a node in the tech tree, then the part is not available in career mode.

[HeadHunter67]

I think we might want to wait at least until 0.22 is released for testing, before making definitive statements as to what will or won't be available and how it works.

[Dunbaratu]

Parts in the tech tree aren't the only place where mods may have compatibility issues with the core campaign game. The solution Squad proposes for that problem is a good one but it's not the only problem. The other problem is difficulty. Mods massively alter the difficulty level of the game. Some make it easy and some make it hard. When it's all just sandbox mode that doesn't matter. When you have to climb an achievement tree to get things unlocked it does start to matter.

[Maxmaps]

By default, career mode does not allow any of the current mods. However, to make your mod usable in career mode all you need to do is assign it to one of the 45 existing tech nodes, or the remaining 'hidden' nodes that we made specifically for some of the most popular and/or useful mods.

Edit: You can choose between any and all tech nodes to assign the parts of your mod to. We put the balancing very much on the modder's side of the deal. It would be awesome to see them try and find the most fitting node balancewise for each and every part, but it's not like we're also expecting really, really powerful and efficient parts to be tossed into tech level 1 because reasons.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Maxmaps
Additional information.

[satcharna]

By default, career mode does not allow any of the current mods. However, to make your mod usable in career mode all you need to do is assign it to one of the 45 existing tech nodes, or the remaining 'hidden' nodes that we made specifically for some of the most popular and/or useful mods.

Edit: You can choose between any and all tech nodes to assign the parts of your mod to. We put the balancing very much on the modder's side of the deal. It would be awesome to see them try and find the most fitting node balancewise for each and every part, but it's not like we're also expecting really, really powerful and efficient parts to be tossed into tech level 1 because reasons.

Would it not be more flexible to just write an API to allow modders to make their own nodes? Sounds like your current system means some hidden nodes may get called by several different mods.

[regex]

Would it not be more flexible to just write an API to allow modders to make their own nodes?

I actually think this is a good idea, but

Sounds like your current system means some hidden nodes may get called by several different mods.

That should be perfectly acceptable. It's not like a node won't contain multiple parts.

[satcharna]

That should be perfectly acceptable. It's not like a node won't contain multiple parts.

Indeed true. What I meant was that one mod may assign a wheel to the same node that another mod assigns a nuclear reactor to. Letting mods make their own nodes would solve that, while still allowing "mods for mods", as it were.

[Majiir]

By default, career mode does not allow any of the current mods. However, to make your mod usable in career mode all you need to do is assign it to one of the 45 existing tech nodes, or the remaining 'hidden' nodes that we made specifically for some of the most popular and/or useful mods.

I've seen this "hidden node" system referenced a number of times. Is this really how R&D has been implemented? It doesn't fit the pattern of other game systems, which are generally populated with data from config nodes, even for stock features. Can we define our own new nodes or will we need to draw from a limited number of predefined nodes as your post suggests?

[hoojiwana]

Letting mods make their own nodes would solve that, while still allowing "mods for mods", as it were.

If every mod created it's own unique tech nodes that just massively inflates the science requirements to unlock everything.

[satcharna]

If every mod created it's own unique tech nodes that just massively inflates the science requirements to unlock everything.

Most mods would fit comfortably into the existing nodes, so I don't believe that would be a problem. Certainly not for things like KW Rocketry or AIES Aerospace, for some examples.

[Maxmaps]

We are currently not supporting a system to modify tech nodes. We are adding the invisible node system as a suggestion of where certain modes may fit in our progression. We do not disencourage experimentation though, and mod makers are free to try and make their own.

'In the future we may allow for proper mod support, but being as this is a new system, we'd like to keep a certain level of control to have solid, accurate data on how it's working out.

[Majiir]

I'm seeing a lot of mixed messages here.

We are currently not supporting a system to modify tech nodes.

We do not disencourage experimentation though, and mod makers are free to try and make their own.

Wait, so we can add nodes? Or will we need to hack around the restrictions on modifying nodes?

being as this is a new system, we'd like to keep a certain level of control to have solid, accurate data on how it's working out.

Could you explain why restricting mods is necessary for understanding how well the stock tree works?

We are adding the invisible node system as a suggestion of where certain modes may fit in our progression.

I think mod makers can work out for ourselves where to put parts and tech nodes.

[PolecatEZ]

I think mod makers can work out for ourselves where to put parts and tech nodes.

I would have to agree with Squad on this one. Some mod-makers can code well, some can model well, some can texture well, but I have seen precious few that can balance their mods well for game play. This is all fine and well in sandbox, but in campaign mode with comparative results in the community, I can see their point of view where they would like to keep a little more control over what goes. A lot of people (modders) can do wondrous technical things, but very few have cracked a game design textbook open and taken a look. Many companies often pass game design to someone's nephew thinking its an easy job, when really it could do the most damage if done poorly.

Without some kind of balancing rubric in place and documented, I shudder to think where most mod-makers would put their stuff on a legitimate tech tree.

[asmi]

We are currently not supporting a system to modify tech nodes. We are adding the invisible node system as a suggestion of where certain modes may fit in our progression. We do not disencourage experimentation though, and mod makers are free to try and make their own.

'In the future we may allow for proper mod support, but being as this is a new system, we'd like to keep a certain level of control to have solid, accurate data on how it's working out.

What about partless mods like FAR? How would they "fit" into the picture?

[fatfluffycat]

What about partless mods like FAR? How would they "fit" into the picture?

They don't need in the tech tree, only part mods need to be. I guess it will work for both career and sandbox without anything special.

[Eric S]

Without some kind of balancing rubric in place and documented, I shudder to think where most mod-makers would put their stuff on a legitimate tech tree.

Even with the restrictions in place, there's no reason these modders can't just plop their new parts down on the very first tech node to become available. With 45 nodes and 160-something parts, it's obvious that nodes can have multiple parts.

I'm not saying that the devs should change their minds on this, just saying that this isn't a valid reason to support them sticking with their current idea.