CLOSED -- Flying Duna AGAIN (Thanks for Participating)

[Geschosskopf]

@ Northstar1989

That's a fascinating project. Sure, thermal nuke jets are fine. I don't have that mod myself but I've read a lot about it and think it sounds as balanced as any other that tries to be serious. So go ahead. The plane just needs a way to be refueled. I assume KAS can do that.

It sounds like your main problem will be getting slow enough to land safely, given your high-speed design. Good luck with the parachutes . If they don't work, remember that it's OK to use braking rockets, provided you build in a way to refuel them like everything else. There's no requirement for circumnavigation, that's just a bonus point. The idea of this whole project is to make a plane that can go back and forth between widely separated bases, getting refueled at each end of the trip. So, if you want to do exploration, too, I guess you need enough braking rocket fuel for 2 landings, 1 out in the boonies and 1 back at base.

The file attachment system in this forum is disabled because of a severe bug. The best way to post a craft file is to paste in the text from it surrounded by the [ code ] and [ /code ] tags, so it's in a small scrollable window within the post. Others can then copy and paste it no problem.

@ ID-1()T

Feel free to take another bite at the apple. The goal of this challenge is not only to be fun but to push aeronautical science ahead by testing it in the most challenging environment .

[Northstar1989]

@ Northstar1989

That's a fascinating project. Sure, thermal nuke jets are fine. I don't have that mod myself but I've read a lot about it and think it sounds as balanced as any other that tries to be serious. So go ahead. The plane just needs a way to be refueled. I assume KAS can do that.

It sounds like your main problem will be getting slow enough to land safely, given your high-speed design. Good luck with the parachutes . If they don't work, remember that it's OK to use braking rockets, provided you build in a way to refuel them like everything else. There's no requirement for circumnavigation, that's just a bonus point. The idea of this whole project is to make a plane that can go back and forth between widely separated bases, getting refueled at each end of the trip. So, if you want to do exploration, too, I guess you need enough braking rocket fuel for 2 landings, 1 out in the boonies and 1 back at base.

The file attachment system in this forum is disabled because of a severe bug. The best way to post a craft file is to paste in the text from it surrounded by the [ code ] and [ /code ] tags, so it's in a small scrollable window within the post. Others can then copy and paste it no problem.

Thanks for the encouragement Geschosskopf. I really appreciate it!

And, with that said, I present my new, and GREATLY improved, Thermal Turbojet design. Still in need of some optimization (this model takes the high-lift, low thrust approach instead, for ease of landing: but I think I took it a little too far- and am looking at adding a little more of both)

I think the second picture says it all. Without using an ounce of conventional fuel (for that matter, without bothering to reduce the uranium loading this time), and with two Kerbals INSIDE a modern, high-tech Mk2 cockpit actually designed for use in spaceplanes; this Nuclear Thermal Turbojet design can stable cruise at nearly 27,000 meters on Kerbin (and with a little more optimization, and a reduction of the uranium loading, which is currently at 1 TON- a significant fraction of the craft's entire weight- certainly at least that). This craft should be able to fly indefinitely at over 11,200 meters on Duna (BEFORE accounting for reduced gravity) according to my calculations!

For those wondering, yes that's a 2.5 meter Ram intake of sorts. Actually, to be precise, it's a 2.5 meter "Atmospheric Intake" from KSP Interstellar, which produces only the IntakeAtmosphere resource instead of the IntakeAir resource- which can be collected on any planet with an atmosphere, and fed into thermal turbojets, which require no oxygen. The KSP Interstellar mod also modifies all the pre-existing intakes to produce this resource in addition to IntakeAir as well- though I found this encourages a mixed use of both resources for thermal turbojets, which can run on either resource, to obtain maximum efficiency from a design if you are using both types of intakes. This is what I did on my fighter-like design, primarily because I decided to use Engine Nacelles for the fuselage.

For this design, I went with the Mk2 cockpit/fuselage system, which is heavier relative to its length- but provides increased surface area and a better shape to attach more wings. The cockpit also has the same mass-to-pilots ratio as a stock Mk2 cockpit- 1 ton per pilot- and a more powerful (but less energy efficient, and less powerful relative to mass) reaction wheel system. Technically, after testing this design, I see I would have probably been better off with the Mk1 cockpit and two stock Mk2 cockpits, if I could find a way to make it work. My primary insights/improvement over the three-engine fighter design were just to use a large atmosphere intakes instead of a smaller one and radial standard intakes, so I could get maximum efficiency out of the air intakes without using three engines (two running of IntakeAtm, one on IntakeAir- as the atmosphere scoops are more efficient as they aren't designed to inject oxygen into combustion chambers, and the design featured a hybrid of both intake types), and to use a longer fuselage so I could fit in a lot more wing area.

The design works great, and takes off on a dime (literally within 25-50 meters or less on Kerbin's runway) on Kerbin. Its takeoff roll will be longer on Duna, of course, due to the thinner air- but it should still be more than capable of field use- rather than only working well between pre-built runways, like the fighter version probably would have.

By the way, the altitude conversion calculation to use:

Take the max cruising altitude, divide it by the scale height of Kerbin (5000 meters).

Raise e (2.718) to the negative value of this power (2.718^-3.85714 in this case). You now have the fraction of Kerbin sea-level atmospheric pressure the craft can fly at (0.274112% in this case).

Multiply this number by 5- as Duna's atmosphere is 1/5th as thick as Kerbin's at sea level. You now have the fraction of Duna's sea level pressure this equates to (1.37056% in this case).

Take the natural logarithm ("ln" on a calculator) of this number (this yields -4.28995 in this case).

Multiply this number by the scale height of Duna (3000 meters) and remove the negative sign from the result. You now have the approximate maximum altitude the craft can fly at on Duna- BEFORE accounting for the reduced gravity levels on Duna (approximately 12,870 meters in this case).

Edited November 14, 2013 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

At long last, I think I've developed the plane I'm going to take around Duna. I present the Mk2 of my most recently presented plane- and boy is she capable. First of all, the images:

Capable of maintaining a cruising altitude of a bit over 29,500 meters (and shooting up 2-3k more meters if necessary), and reaching a top speed over land of over 1,200 m/s on Kerbin; I present the Egret- as I've named her.

The only really significant change I made to the design was to add a couple of Heavy Control Winglets to the front end to balance the loss of weight at the tail when I launch with a greatly reduced uranium load (only approximately 5% of maximum). The weight of the uranium was close to 50% of the weight of the tail end- so this was an entirely necessary change to allow light loading of the reactor: and even then she's still a bit of a nose-dragger once you reduce the uranium loading. With a 5% uranium load and the extra winglets, the Mk2 was born- and can perform quite impressively for an essentially unlimited-range aircraft...

The Egret should be capable of flying at over 13,000 meters above "sea level" on Duna- based on her maximum cruising altitude on Kerbin, even before the beneficial effects of Duna's reduced gravity levels are taken into account. What's more, she should be able to do so extremely quickly for a plane on Duna- at over 1,200 m/s (probably significantly faster, as the reduced gravity should allow higher flight, or nose angles closer to the horizon), the Egret should be able to circumnavigate Duna roughly once every 30 minutes. Actually, the minimum orbital speed for Duna at 42,000 meters is about 950 m/s according to the Wiki- so 1,200 m/s at 13,000 should greatly reduce the effects of gravity on the plane, allowing further increases in speed. As a result, the Egret might well be capable of flying at much higher altitudes than 13,000 meters- perhaps 20,000 meters or more- simply as the top speed will reach a very significant fraction of (and perhaps even exceed) what would be the orbital velocity, as it climbs, IF there were no atmosphere...

The Craft file text:

ship = 'Egret' Thermal Turbojet
version = 0.22.0
description = Max Cruising Altitude:  approx. 29,500 meters¨Max Landspeed:  1,201 m/s¨(5% UF6 load performance)¨¨'The Egret' is a nuclear thermal turbojet aircraft capable of remarkable performance for a fuel-independent aircraft on Kerbin.  On Duna, her intended operational theater, her performance should be something to be marveled at...¨¨IMPORTANT:  Reduce UF6 load to 5% before takeoff.
type = SPH
PART
{
	part = B9.Cockpit.MK2_4294389866
	partName = CommandPod
	pos = 0.08689253,7.284027,-0.01020099
	rot = 0.7071068,0,0,0.7071068
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 0
	link = B9.Cockpit.MK2.Body.5m_4294389800
	link = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Wingtip.4x7m_4294389184
	link = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Wingtip.4x7m_4294389134
	link = largeAdapter2_4294389084
	link = FSfighterTailGear_4294389024
	link = NP.zmisc.heavywinglet_4294388852
	link = NP.zmisc.heavywinglet_4294388816
	attN = top,largeAdapter2_4294389084
	attN = bottom,B9.Cockpit.MK2.Body.5m_4294389800
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleCommand
		isEnabled = True
		controlSrcStatusText = 
		EVENTS
		{
			MakeReference
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Control From Here
				guiName = Control From Here
				category = Control From Here
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			RenameVessel
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Rename Vessel
				guiName = Rename Vessel
				category = Rename Vessel
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = FSanimateGeneric
		isEnabled = True
		startDeployed = False
		isAnimating = False
		animTime = 0
		reverseAnimation = False
		animSpeed = -1
		hasBeenInitialized = True
		EVENTS
		{
			toggleEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Deploy
				guiName = Turn cockpit lights on
				category = Deploy
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 5
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			toggleAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleSAS
		isEnabled = True
		EVENTS
		{
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleReactionWheel
		isEnabled = True
		stateString = Active
		WheelState = Active
		EVENTS
		{
			OnToggle
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Toggle Torque
				guiName = Toggle Torque
				category = Toggle Torque
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			Activate
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			Deactivate
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			Toggle
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleScienceExperiment
		isEnabled = True
		Deployed = False
		EVENTS
		{
			DeployExperiment
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Deploy
				guiName = Deploy
				category = Deploy
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			ReviewDataEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Review Data
				guiName = Review Data
				category = Review Data
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			ResetExperiment
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Reset
				guiName = Reset
				category = Reset
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			ResetExperimentExternal
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = Reset
				guiName = Reset
				category = Reset
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			DeployAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			ResetAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleScienceContainer
		isEnabled = True
		EVENTS
		{
			StoreDataExternalEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = 
				guiName = Store Experiments
				category = 
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			ReviewDataEvent
			{
				active = False
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Review Data
				guiName = Review Stored Data (0)
				category = Review Data
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleTripLogger
		isEnabled = False
		EVENTS
		{
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
		}
		Surfaced
		{
		}
		Flew
		{
		}
		FlewBy
		{
		}
		Orbited
		{
		}
		SubOrbited
		{
		}
	}
}
PART
{
	part = B9.Cockpit.MK2.Body.5m_4294389800
	partName = Part
	pos = 0.08689253,7.284027,-4.010211
	rot = 0.7071068,0,0,0.7071068
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 0
	link = NuclearReactor125_4294389766
	link = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Wingtip.4x7m_4294389596
	link = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Wingtip.4x7m_4294389452
	link = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Winglet.6x5m_4294389308
	link = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Winglet.6x5m_4294389246
	link = ksp.r.largeBatteryPack_4294388930
	link = solarPanels5_4294388908
	link = solarPanels5_4294388880
	attN = top,B9.Cockpit.MK2_4294389866
	attN = bottom,NuclearReactor125_4294389766
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
}
PART
{
	part = NuclearReactor125_4294389766
	partName = Part
	pos = 0.08689253,7.284027,-6.990222
	rot = 0.7071068,0,0,0.7071068
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 0
	link = ThermalTurbojet_4294389724
	attN = top,B9.Cockpit.MK2.Body.5m_4294389800
	attN = bottom,ThermalTurbojet_4294389724
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = FNReactor
		isEnabled = True
		IsEnabled = True
		isupgraded = False
		breedtritium = False
		last_active_time = 0
		ongoing_consumption_rate = 0
		reactorInit = False
		EVENTS
		{
			ActivateReactor
			{
				active = False
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Activate Reactor
				guiName = Activate Reactor
				category = Activate Reactor
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			MaintainReactor
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = Repair Reactor
				guiName = Repair Reactor
				category = Repair Reactor
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 2.5
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			DeactivateReactor
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Deactivate Reactor
				guiName = Deactivate Reactor
				category = Deactivate Reactor
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			BreedTritium
			{
				active = False
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Enable Tritium Breeding
				guiName = Enable Tritium Breeding
				category = Enable Tritium Breeding
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			StopBreedTritium
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Disable Tritium Breeding
				guiName = Disable Tritium Breeding
				category = Disable Tritium Breeding
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			RetrofitReactor
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Retrofit
				guiName = Retrofit
				category = Retrofit
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			ActivateReactorAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			DeactivateReactorAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			ToggleReactorAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
		}
	}
}
PART
{
	part = ThermalTurbojet_4294389724
	partName = Part
	pos = 0.08689253,7.284027,-7.771226
	rot = 0.7071068,0,0,0.7071068
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 0
	attN = top,NuclearReactor125_4294389766
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleEngines
		isEnabled = True
		EngineIgnited = False
		engineShutdown = False
		currentThrottle = 0
		flameout = False
		staged = False
		EVENTS
		{
			Activate
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Activate Engine
				guiName = Activate Engine
				category = Activate Engine
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			Shutdown
			{
				active = False
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Shutdown Engine
				guiName = Shutdown Engine
				category = Shutdown Engine
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			OnAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			ShutdownAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			ActivateAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = FNNozzleController
		isEnabled = True
		IsEnabled = False
		isHybrid = False
		isupgraded = False
		engineInit = False
		fuel_mode = 0
		EVENTS
		{
			TogglePropellant
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Toggle Propellant
				guiName = Toggle Propellant
				category = Toggle Propellant
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			ToggleTWRLimiter
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = TWR Limiter
				guiName = TWR Limiter
				category = TWR Limiter
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			RetrofitEngine
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Retrofit
				guiName = Retrofit
				category = Retrofit
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			TogglePropellantAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			ToggleTWRLimiterAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleGimbal
		isEnabled = True
		gimbalLock = False
		EVENTS
		{
			LockGimbal
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Lock Gimbal
				guiName = Lock Gimbal
				category = Lock Gimbal
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			FreeGimbal
			{
				active = False
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Free Gimbal
				guiName = Free Gimbal
				category = Free Gimbal
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			ToggleAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = FXModuleAnimateThrottle
		isEnabled = True
		EVENTS
		{
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
		}
	}
}
PART
{
	part = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Wingtip.4x7m_4294389596
	partName = Winglet
	pos = -1.124624,7.284027,-5.827507
	rot = -0.7071068,0,0,-0.7071068
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	link = FSfighterTailGear_4294389546
	sym = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Wingtip.4x7m_4294389452
	srfN = srfAttach,B9.Cockpit.MK2.Body.5m_4294389800
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
}
PART
{
	part = FSfighterTailGear_4294389546
	partName = Part
	pos = -8.124759,7.284027,-7.516781
	rot = 0,-2.980233E-08,0,-1
	attRot = 0,4.214685E-08,0.7071067,0.7071067
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	sym = FSfighterTailGear_4294389402
	srfN = srfAttach,B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Wingtip.4x7m_4294389596
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = FSwheel
		isEnabled = True
		deploymentState = Deployed
		brakesEngaged = False
		motorEnabled = False
		reverseMotor = False
		reverseMotorSet = False
		motorStartsReversed = False
		EVENTS
		{
			RaiseGear
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Raise Gear
				guiName = Raise Gear
				category = Raise Gear
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 5
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			LowerGear
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Lower Gear
				guiName = Lower Gear
				category = Lower Gear
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 5
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			ReverseMotorEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Enable Reverse Motor
				guiName = Enable Reverse Motor
				category = Enable Reverse Motor
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			EnableMotorEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Enable Motor
				guiName = Enable Motor
				category = Enable Motor
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			DisableMotorEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = Disable Motor
				guiName = Disable Motor
				category = Disable Motor
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			brakesOnEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Brakes On
				guiName = Brakes On
				category = Brakes On
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 6
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			brakesOffEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Brakes Off
				guiName = Brakes Off
				category = Brakes Off
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 6
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			increaseFrictionEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = increase friction (d)
				guiName = increase friction (d)
				category = increase friction (d)
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			decreaseFrictionEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = decrease friction (d)
				guiName = decrease friction (d)
				category = decrease friction (d)
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			suspensionGUIEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = adjust suspension (d)
				guiName = adjust suspension (d)
				category = adjust suspension (d)
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			ToggleGearAction
			{
				actionGroup = Gear
			}
			ReverseMotorAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			ToggleMotorAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			BrakesAction
			{
				actionGroup = Brakes
			}
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = FSpartTurner
		isEnabled = True
		steerMultiplier = 25
		steeringEnabled = False
		altInputModeEnabled = False
		reversedInput = False
		ignoreTrim = True
		EVENTS
		{
			toggleSteering
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Toggle Steering
				guiName = Toggle Steering
				category = Toggle Steering
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			toggleAltInputMode
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = QE or AD to steer
				guiName = QE or AD to steer
				category = QE or AD to steer
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			toggleIgnoreTrim
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Toggle Ignore trim
				guiName = Toggle Ignore trim
				category = Toggle Ignore trim
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			toggleReverseInput
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Toggle Reverse Steering
				guiName = Toggle Reverse Steering
				category = Toggle Reverse Steering
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			increaseSteering
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Increase Steering
				guiName = Increase Steering
				category = Increase Steering
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			decreaseSteering
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Decrease Steering
				guiName = Decrease Steering
				category = Decrease Steering
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			toggleSpeedAdjustedSteeringEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Dynamic Steering
				guiName = Dynamic Steering
				category = Dynamic Steering
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			toggleSteeringAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			toggleInvertAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
		}
	}
}
PART
{
	part = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Wingtip.4x7m_4294389452
	partName = Winglet
	pos = 1.298409,7.284027,-5.827507
	rot = -3.090863E-08,0.7071068,0.7071068,-3.090862E-08
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	link = FSfighterTailGear_4294389402
	sym = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Wingtip.4x7m_4294389596
	srfN = srfAttach,B9.Cockpit.MK2.Body.5m_4294389800
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
}
PART
{
	part = FSfighterTailGear_4294389402
	partName = Part
	pos = 8.298563,7.284028,-7.516781
	rot = 0,-2.980234E-08,1.632896E-14,1
	attRot = 0,4.214685E-08,0.7071067,0.7071067
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	sym = FSfighterTailGear_4294389546
	srfN = srfAttach,B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Wingtip.4x7m_4294389452
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = FSwheel
		isEnabled = True
		deploymentState = Deployed
		brakesEngaged = False
		motorEnabled = False
		reverseMotor = False
		reverseMotorSet = False
		motorStartsReversed = False
		EVENTS
		{
			RaiseGear
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Raise Gear
				guiName = Raise Gear
				category = Raise Gear
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 5
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			LowerGear
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Lower Gear
				guiName = Lower Gear
				category = Lower Gear
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 5
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			ReverseMotorEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Enable Reverse Motor
				guiName = Enable Reverse Motor
				category = Enable Reverse Motor
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			EnableMotorEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Enable Motor
				guiName = Enable Motor
				category = Enable Motor
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			DisableMotorEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = Disable Motor
				guiName = Disable Motor
				category = Disable Motor
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			brakesOnEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Brakes On
				guiName = Brakes On
				category = Brakes On
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 6
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			brakesOffEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Brakes Off
				guiName = Brakes Off
				category = Brakes Off
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 6
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			increaseFrictionEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = increase friction (d)
				guiName = increase friction (d)
				category = increase friction (d)
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			decreaseFrictionEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = decrease friction (d)
				guiName = decrease friction (d)
				category = decrease friction (d)
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			suspensionGUIEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = adjust suspension (d)
				guiName = adjust suspension (d)
				category = adjust suspension (d)
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			ToggleGearAction
			{
				actionGroup = Gear
			}
			ReverseMotorAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			ToggleMotorAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			BrakesAction
			{
				actionGroup = Brakes
			}
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = FSpartTurner
		isEnabled = True
		steerMultiplier = 25
		steeringEnabled = False
		altInputModeEnabled = False
		reversedInput = False
		ignoreTrim = True
		EVENTS
		{
			toggleSteering
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Toggle Steering
				guiName = Toggle Steering
				category = Toggle Steering
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			toggleAltInputMode
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = QE or AD to steer
				guiName = QE or AD to steer
				category = QE or AD to steer
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			toggleIgnoreTrim
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Toggle Ignore trim
				guiName = Toggle Ignore trim
				category = Toggle Ignore trim
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			toggleReverseInput
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Toggle Reverse Steering
				guiName = Toggle Reverse Steering
				category = Toggle Reverse Steering
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			increaseSteering
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Increase Steering
				guiName = Increase Steering
				category = Increase Steering
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			decreaseSteering
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Decrease Steering
				guiName = Decrease Steering
				category = Decrease Steering
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			toggleSpeedAdjustedSteeringEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Dynamic Steering
				guiName = Dynamic Steering
				category = Dynamic Steering
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			toggleSteeringAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			toggleInvertAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
		}
	}
}
PART
{
	part = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Winglet.6x5m_4294389308
	partName = ControlSurface
	pos = -0.9807844,7.57011,-5.669283
	rot = -0.7010575,0.09229588,0.09229604,-0.7010574
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	sym = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Winglet.6x5m_4294389246
	srfN = srfAttach,B9.Cockpit.MK2.Body.5m_4294389800
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
}
PART
{
	part = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Winglet.6x5m_4294389246
	partName = ControlSurface
	pos = 1.154569,7.57011,-5.669283
	rot = -0.09229607,0.7010573,0.7010575,-0.0922959
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	sym = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Winglet.6x5m_4294389308
	srfN = srfAttach,B9.Cockpit.MK2.Body.5m_4294389800
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
}
PART
{
	part = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Wingtip.4x7m_4294389184
	partName = Winglet
	pos = -1.004287,7.284027,-0.8894156
	rot = -0.7071068,0,0,-0.7071068
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	sym = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Wingtip.4x7m_4294389134
	srfN = srfAttach,B9.Cockpit.MK2_4294389866
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
}
PART
{
	part = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Wingtip.4x7m_4294389134
	partName = Winglet
	pos = 1.178072,7.284027,-0.8894156
	rot = -3.090863E-08,0.7071068,0.7071068,-3.090862E-08
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	sym = B9.Aero.Wing.SW.Wingtip.4x7m_4294389184
	srfN = srfAttach,B9.Cockpit.MK2_4294389866
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
}
PART
{
	part = largeAdapter2_4294389084
	partName = Strut
	pos = 0.08689253,7.284027,1.679016
	rot = 0.7071068,0,0,0.7071068
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 0
	link = warpAtmIntake2_4294389060
	attN = top,warpAtmIntake2_4294389060
	attN = bottom,B9.Cockpit.MK2_4294389866
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
}
PART
{
	part = warpAtmIntake2_4294389060
	partName = Part
	pos = 0.08689253,7.284027,1.868233
	rot = 0.7071068,0,0,0.7071068
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 0
	attN = bottom01,largeAdapter2_4294389084
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = AtmosphericIntake
		isEnabled = True
		EVENTS
		{
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
		}
	}
}
PART
{
	part = FSfighterTailGear_4294389024
	partName = Part
	pos = 0.08689258,6.658819,1.320404
	rot = 0,0,-8.742278E-08,-1
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	srfN = srfAttach,B9.Cockpit.MK2_4294389866
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = FSwheel
		isEnabled = True
		deploymentState = Deployed
		brakesEngaged = False
		motorEnabled = False
		reverseMotor = False
		reverseMotorSet = False
		motorStartsReversed = False
		EVENTS
		{
			RaiseGear
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Raise Gear
				guiName = Raise Gear
				category = Raise Gear
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 5
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			LowerGear
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Lower Gear
				guiName = Lower Gear
				category = Lower Gear
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 5
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			ReverseMotorEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Enable Reverse Motor
				guiName = Enable Reverse Motor
				category = Enable Reverse Motor
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			EnableMotorEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Enable Motor
				guiName = Enable Motor
				category = Enable Motor
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			DisableMotorEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = Disable Motor
				guiName = Disable Motor
				category = Disable Motor
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			brakesOnEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Brakes On
				guiName = Brakes On
				category = Brakes On
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 6
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			brakesOffEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Brakes Off
				guiName = Brakes Off
				category = Brakes Off
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 6
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			increaseFrictionEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = increase friction (d)
				guiName = increase friction (d)
				category = increase friction (d)
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			decreaseFrictionEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = decrease friction (d)
				guiName = decrease friction (d)
				category = decrease friction (d)
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			suspensionGUIEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = adjust suspension (d)
				guiName = adjust suspension (d)
				category = adjust suspension (d)
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			ToggleGearAction
			{
				actionGroup = Gear
			}
			ReverseMotorAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			ToggleMotorAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			BrakesAction
			{
				actionGroup = Brakes
			}
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = FSpartTurner
		isEnabled = True
		steerMultiplier = 25
		steeringEnabled = False
		altInputModeEnabled = False
		reversedInput = False
		ignoreTrim = True
		EVENTS
		{
			toggleSteering
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Toggle Steering
				guiName = Toggle Steering
				category = Toggle Steering
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			toggleAltInputMode
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = QE or AD to steer
				guiName = QE or AD to steer
				category = QE or AD to steer
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			toggleIgnoreTrim
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Toggle Ignore trim
				guiName = Toggle Ignore trim
				category = Toggle Ignore trim
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			toggleReverseInput
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Toggle Reverse Steering
				guiName = Toggle Reverse Steering
				category = Toggle Reverse Steering
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			increaseSteering
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Increase Steering
				guiName = Increase Steering
				category = Increase Steering
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			decreaseSteering
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Decrease Steering
				guiName = Decrease Steering
				category = Decrease Steering
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			toggleSpeedAdjustedSteeringEvent
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Dynamic Steering
				guiName = Dynamic Steering
				category = Dynamic Steering
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			toggleSteeringAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			toggleInvertAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
		}
	}
}
PART
{
	part = ksp.r.largeBatteryPack_4294388930
	partName = Part
	pos = 0.08689238,8.153687,-6.132257
	rot = 0.7071068,8.432164E-09,8.432164E-09,0.7071068
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	srfN = srfAttach,B9.Cockpit.MK2.Body.5m_4294389800
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
}
PART
{
	part = solarPanels5_4294388908
	partName = Part
	pos = -0.5016928,7.872612,-1.873654
	rot = -0.270598,0.6532815,0.6532816,-0.2705981
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	sym = solarPanels5_4294388880
	srfN = srfAttach,B9.Cockpit.MK2.Body.5m_4294389800
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleDeployableSolarPanel
		isEnabled = True
		currentRotation = (0, 0, 0, 0)
		stateString = RETRACTED
		storedAnimationTime = 0
		storedAnimationSpeed = 0
		EVENTS
		{
			Extend
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Extend Panels
				guiName = Extend Panels
				category = Extend Panels
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 4
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			Retract
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Retract Panels
				guiName = Retract Panels
				category = Retract Panels
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 4
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			ExtendPanelsAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			ExtendAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			RetractAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = KASModuleGrab
		isEnabled = False
		grabbed = False
		evaHolderVesselName = 
		EVENTS
		{
			ContextMenuGrab
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = Grab
				guiName = Grab
				category = Grab
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			ContextMenuDrop
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = Drop
				guiName = Drop
				category = Drop
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			ContextMenuEvaAttach
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = Attach
				guiName = Attach
				category = Attach
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
		}
	}
}
PART
{
	part = solarPanels5_4294388880
	partName = Part
	pos = 0.6754779,7.872612,-1.873654
	rot = 0.2705981,0.6532815,0.6532816,0.270598
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	sym = solarPanels5_4294388908
	srfN = srfAttach,B9.Cockpit.MK2.Body.5m_4294389800
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleDeployableSolarPanel
		isEnabled = True
		currentRotation = (0, 0, 0, 0)
		stateString = RETRACTED
		storedAnimationTime = 0
		storedAnimationSpeed = 0
		EVENTS
		{
			Extend
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Extend Panels
				guiName = Extend Panels
				category = Extend Panels
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 4
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			Retract
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = True
				guiIcon = Retract Panels
				guiName = Retract Panels
				category = Retract Panels
				guiActiveUnfocused = True
				unfocusedRange = 4
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
			ExtendPanelsAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			ExtendAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
			RetractAction
			{
				actionGroup = None
			}
		}
	}
	MODULE
	{
		name = KASModuleGrab
		isEnabled = False
		grabbed = False
		evaHolderVesselName = 
		EVENTS
		{
			ContextMenuGrab
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = Grab
				guiName = Grab
				category = Grab
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			ContextMenuDrop
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = Drop
				guiName = Drop
				category = Drop
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
			ContextMenuEvaAttach
			{
				active = True
				guiActive = False
				guiIcon = Attach
				guiName = Attach
				category = Attach
				guiActiveUnfocused = False
				unfocusedRange = 2
				externalToEVAOnly = True
			}
		}
		ACTIONS
		{
		}
	}
}
PART
{
	part = NP.zmisc.heavywinglet_4294388852
	partName = ControlSurface
	pos = -1.497051,7.715046,-0.2576648
	rot = -0.7145786,0.05600617,0.130198,-0.6850469
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	sym = NP.zmisc.heavywinglet_4294388816
	srfN = srfAttach,B9.Cockpit.MK2_4294389866
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
}
PART
{
	part = NP.zmisc.heavywinglet_4294388816
	partName = ControlSurface
	pos = 1.670836,7.715046,-0.2576648
	rot = -0.1301981,0.6850469,0.7145786,-0.05600618
	attRot = 0,0,0,1
	mir = 1,1,1
	istg = 0
	dstg = 0
	sidx = -1
	sqor = -1
	attm = 1
	sym = NP.zmisc.heavywinglet_4294388852
	srfN = srfAttach,B9.Cockpit.MK2_4294389866
	EVENTS
	{
	}
	ACTIONS
	{
	}
}

Edited November 14, 2013 by Northstar1989

[Geschosskopf]

@ Northstar1989:

That's an impressive rig! I hope you can get it slow enough for a safe landing at 2500m+, and that you can control it well enough to land at least within a few clicks of your aiming point so you can taxi the rest of the way. The thin air not only makes it hard to fly, but also hard to maneuver. Expect limited control authority and a very strong tendency to lose altitude in turns. My D'OH, which has a wingloading low enough to land at 30-35m/s, still loses about 1000m altitude per 45^ of heading change, and that's being gentle with a 5km turn radius. This all makes for very long landing approaches. And even landing with the brakes locked at 30-35m/s, it still rolled hundreds of meters before stopping, up and down at least a couple of big dunes.

So, at this point, I'd recommend an actual test at Duna. My procedure was to slap a small deorbit stage on the butt and HyperEdit it into Duna orbit. Then I'd deorbit, drop the stage, test the atmospheric entry, and come down to a landing. For this, I found it very helpful to have something on the ground as an aiming point, to learn how to judge landing approaches. Then, if the plane survived that, I'd see if it could take off again and fly high enough to do the job. Only after doing all this would I begin the task of getting it off the ground on Kerbin. Because I found launching a Duna-capable plane about as hard as making the plane fly on Duna, there's definitely no sense in getting to this phase unless you know you have something that works already .

[Northstar1989]

@ Northstar1989:

That's an impressive rig! I hope you can get it slow enough for a safe landing at 2500m+, and that you can control it well enough to land at least within a few clicks of your aiming point so you can taxi the rest of the way. The thin air not only makes it hard to fly, but also hard to maneuver. Expect limited control authority and a very strong tendency to lose altitude in turns. My D'OH, which has a wingloading low enough to land at 30-35m/s, still loses about 1000m altitude per 45^ of heading change, and that's being gentle with a 5km turn radius. This all makes for very long landing approaches. And even landing with the brakes locked at 30-35m/s, it still rolled hundreds of meters before stopping, up and down at least a couple of big dunes.

So, at this point, I'd recommend an actual test at Duna. My procedure was to slap a small deorbit stage on the butt and HyperEdit it into Duna orbit. Then I'd deorbit, drop the stage, test the atmospheric entry, and come down to a landing. For this, I found it very helpful to have something on the ground as an aiming point, to learn how to judge landing approaches. Then, if the plane survived that, I'd see if it could take off again and fly high enough to do the job. Only after doing all this would I begin the task of getting it off the ground on Kerbin. Because I found launching a Duna-capable plane about as hard as making the plane fly on Duna, there's definitely no sense in getting to this phase unless you know you have something that works already .

I'm strictly against using HyperEdit in almost any form, so I guess I'll just have to see how the Egret fairs on Duna when I get her there. She's light and solidly-built enough to strap a couple a really big rocket in 2x symmetry without much of a problem- and her part count is reasonable enough for that too (the Egret has a LOT fewer parts than the D'OH did...) Actually, my main focus right now has been building an orbital infrastructure so that when I go to Duna, I'll be going there in force- not just with a couple planes and a rocket. Think something Kethane Traveling Circus-style, only without the Kethane mod, as it's not yet Career Mode compatible (I do, however, have KSP Interstellar installed, and am strongly considering throwing in the HOME mod as well- though that might make it all a bit too easy...)

I actually strongly recommend taking a look at my Mission Reports thread on my ongoing Career Mode game... You can find it here:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/57509-Kerbin-and-Beyond-a-Maturing-Space-Program

We'll see how the Egret does, when she gets there. I'll try and remember to submit a thorough post on the thing when I finally send a couple copies of her to Duna...

[Northstar1989]

EEK!

Look's like I'd been calculating altitudes on Duna all with the wrong Scale Height! The correct figure is 3000 meters, not 5000 meters! (that's the scale height for Kerbin)

Given this revelation, the new (re-calculated) maximum cruising altitude for the Egret on Duna is actually 12,870 meters before taking into account the lower gravity- not 13,000 meters. I got lucky on this one, because it just so happened that the two slopes intersect very near this point- otherwise I would have calculated a number that was really far off before, and looked like even more of a fool right now.

I'll update the calculation section in my earlier post to reflect the new numbers- otherwise people might end up using these numbers themselves, and abandoning perfectly good designs because they didn't think they could fly high enough, or alternatively, building planes that they think can fly on Duna- but just end up smashing into the ground.

EDIT: Oh, one last thing. IF this version of Thermal Turbojet works well on Duna, I'll be building an even higher-altitude version using a 2.5 meter fuselage. I can't do this just now because I haven't yet discovered the tech node for the super-giant sized B9 wings; but once I develop this tech tree node, I'll be designing a Duna Heavy Lifter using a Thermal Turbojet. As it just so happens, the 2.5 meter reactor is a little less than 6 times heavier than the 1.25 meter variant, but produces a thrust approximately 10 times as powerful as 1.25 meter with a Thermal Rocket Nozzle. Assuming the same ratios hold true for a Thermal Turbojet, I can expect a much higher altitude ceiling with a 2.5 meter reactor and Thermal Turbojet- assuming I can bring the wingload low enough. If not, I'll just slap on 2-4 of the 1.25 reactor-turbojet pairs to a 2.5 meter version (probably on the wings, though maybe also on the rear) and still obtain a probably moderately higher altitude ceiling than the Egret.

The 2.5 meter design I speak of would be more of of a C-130 style heavy lifter than a medium-heavy scout plane like the Egret, however- so I don't expect it to land or takeoff on a dime (the wingload would be much heavier- relying more on speed for lift). Instead, it would be more useful for lifting heavy cargo loads from one permanent Duna base to another (assisted greatly by selection of flat sites, and placement of Extraterrestrial Launchpads Mod deployable runways- which are insanely heavy, and wouldn't be the very first things I bring to Duna- of course.) Getting something that heavy and with that much lift to Kerbin orbit would also be challenging- I'd probably assemble it in-orbit or on Duna herself (with Extraterrestrial Launchpads infrastructure) rather than on Kerbin, since by that point the Egret (or a modified version thereof) would already have met this challenge's requirements.

Probably most useful for hauling Kethane to a central refinery (since it'd be a Nuclear Thermal Turbojet, it wouldn't burn any of the Kethane it'd be transporting), once they release a version of the Kethane Pack that's Career Mode compatible... It could also be useful for Extraterrestial Launchpads mod "Ore"- which requires the Kethane Pack to work- as it utilizes Kethane Pack's resource placement and mining code for Ore (with permission, of course.)

Edited November 14, 2013 by Northstar1989

[Geschosskopf]

I salute your abstinence from HyperEdit. Everybody's got to live by a code. My main reason for using it is because I can't imagine a space program being run without simulators. Rockets are expensive, the press frowns on killing Kerbals, and there are schedules to keep, launch windows only come every so often, etc. So I have multiple saved games. One is the "real universe" where everything "real" actually happens. The others "simulators" where I design and test-fly everything. Once I have a ship that works in a "simulator" save, I copy it over to the "real" save.

That's a hugely impressive mission thread you've got going there. I love complex projects like that. Can't wait for more.

[700NitroXpress]

Here was my first SSTO flight on Duna back in the day.

[Northstar1989]

I salute your abstinence from HyperEdit. Everybody's got to live by a code. My main reason for using it is because I can't imagine a space program being run without simulators. Rockets are expensive, the press frowns on killing Kerbals, and there are schedules to keep, launch windows only come every so often, etc. So I have multiple saved games. One is the "real universe" where everything "real" actually happens. The others "simulators" where I design and test-fly everything. Once I have a ship that works in a "simulator" save, I copy it over to the "real" save.

That's a hugely impressive mission thread you've got going there. I love complex projects like that. Can't wait for more.

Thanks for the compliments, I really appreciate it.

I totally understand the simulator logic- but there's also so much that's hard to simulate before it's ever been done. How can you really know how well a plane will take off or land on Mars (*cough*, I mean Duna) without knowing things like the precise coefficient of friction of the soil at the landing site, for instance?

I see it as more or a challenge to go without simulators. IF something goes wrong, I see it as a challenge to try and fix it (like in my Mission Report thread- where already, I managed to strand two Kerbals in orbit in a spaceplane, and had to emergency EVA them to other ships in orbit- one more than 100 km away at the time the EVA was started).

Now, that said, I'm generally not above F5/F9 when it comes to doing something stupid by accident, like staging a rocket when I didn't mean to; and I *WILL* revert a rocket as many times as necessary if it can't make it to orbit and survival looks unlikely, since I figure that any real space program would at least be equipped with some wind tunnels and aerospace engineers who understood all the calculations and mathematics behind designing a rocket that can actually fly- plus recovering all the debris is a pain sometimes. I'll even terminate debris to save on FPS and prevent collisions (a real space program could track debris, and has collision avoidance systems- much like hugely more advanced versions of what you see in some modern cars- to help detect and prevent such collisions)- though I've designed a Scrapper/Recycler ship to cut down on that in my ongoing Career Mode save (actually my only save at the moment). But, like you applauded, HyperEdit is where I draw the line. I totally understand if you do it, but I just can't bring myself around to it. Anyways, the D'OH was a very impressive (and utilitarian) aircraft, and I applaud you on it (as well as the guy who one-up'ed it recently). So I guess some great things do nonetheless come of HyperEdit at times...

Regards,

Northstar

[Teirusu]

I decided to tinker around with this challenge last night in some free time, and here's the results of my efforts from a 'simulation' run. (Hypering it to Duna.) Drawing from my experience from doing the Kerbin circumnavigation challenge, I knew that in really thin atmosphere, one just needs the smallest amounts of thrust and good lift-ratio to keep you flying. I also wanted to try something more.. conventional. I made an albatross with three of the mini nuclear engines in the RLA Stock-like pack.

Comes in at a whopping 17.6 Ker-tons. After bleeding off my orbital speed for a loooong time, I was able to fly it well over the 5k altitude at 2/3 throttle. Then, I came down some where in the north hemisphere where it looks rather flat.. sadly, I lost my tail-fins on the landing, but Jeb.. being Jeb managed to stick the landing anyhow, and even managed to take back off! Apparently I built enough redundancy into the craft that I didn't really need them. The plane managed to fly just fine with out them, in fact. Interestingly enough, with the tanks well pass half-full, while cursing in the lower atmosphere, I only needed the tiniest amount of thrust to keep the plane air-borne.

Javascript is disabled. View full album

So far, fun challenge. Need to figure out how to get it to Duna in the first place. Might just take off the tail cones and slap on some jettison-able turbo-jets, or something.

[Northstar1989]

I decided to tinker around with this challenge last night in some free time, and here's the results of my efforts from a 'simulation' run. (Hypering it to Duna.) Drawing from my experience from doing the Kerbin circumnavigation challenge, I knew that in really thin atmosphere, one just needs the smallest amounts of thrust and good lift-ratio to keep you flying. I also wanted to try something more.. conventional. I made an albatross with three of the mini nuclear engines in the RLA Stock-like pack.

Comes in at a whopping 17.6 Ker-tons. After bleeding off my orbital speed for a loooong time, I was able to fly it well over the 5k altitude at 2/3 throttle. Then, I came down some where in the north hemisphere where it looks rather flat.. sadly, I lost my tail-fins on the landing, but Jeb.. being Jeb managed to stick the landing anyhow, and even managed to take back off! Apparently I built enough redundancy into the craft that I didn't really need them. The plane managed to fly just fine with out them, in fact. Interestingly enough, with the tanks well pass half-full, while cursing in the lower atmosphere, I only needed the tiniest amount of thrust to keep the plane air-borne.

Javascript is disabled. View full album

So far, fun challenge. Need to figure out how to get it to Duna in the first place. Might just take off the tail cones and slap on some jettison-able turbo-jets, or something.

Good job! Now you just need to figure out how to get it to Duna in one piece!

[Sirine]

Good job! Now you just need to figure out how to get it to Duna in one piece!

Simple. Snap two of those craft at rocket, so they resemble symmetric. And lift it as you normally would.

Put a few strut if they sway too much. After 30km, there are no effect of wings lift anymore.

[Northstar1989]

Simple. Snap two of those craft at rocket, so they resemble symmetric. And lift it as you normally would.

Put a few strut if they sway too much. After 30km, there are no effect of wings lift anymore.

Easier said than done. Some aircraft- particularly those with very large, multi-part, Albatross-like wings, as that one has, are incapable of withstanding the G's of a rocket trip up. That being said, I'm sure it can be done- if the part count doesn't kill the computer trying to run it first! That's basically my plan for bringing my planes to Duna.

Speaking of which, at this point I need some input from others. I've developed four different models of thermal turbojet plane- all with very high altitude ceilings, and I need to decide which to try to bring to Duna first. In addition to the two models I presented before ('The Egret' and the fighter-plane like one, which I decided to name 'The Firefly'), I've now developed:

'The Eagle'- which is basically a stretched 3-wing version of the 'Egret', with a lighter (Mk1) fuselage, and 2 of the stock Mk2 Cockpits instead of 1 of the B9 Mk2's (more SAS force for the same mass and electricity consumption with the stock Mk2's- plus more usable length to attach wings). It has the highest altitude ceiling of all my designs- able to hold at about 32,800 meters on Kerbin. Its top speed is also the highest of all my designs- at 1,242 m/s near max altitude. It can also take off almost instantly on a flat surface (like the runway) on Kerbin- so it probably has a reasonable length takeoff roll on Duna too.

And, 'The Egret 2'- which is basically a stretched version of the 'Egret', once again with 3 wings instead of 2- but a Mk2 fuselage and twin thermal turbojet engines instead of a single tubojet engine. It also has a slightly lower intake ratio, as it only has two additional 1.25 m intakes to feed its two engines- but it still is incapable of reaching a high enough height on Kerbin to stall (Duna might be another story though, due to the lower gravity). Surprisingly, the Egret doesn't seem to benefit from a higher top speed than the Egret: in fact, its top speed is slightly lower, at 1154 m/s instead of 1201 m/s- probably because of the heavy fueslage bicoupler for the engines (in KSP, drag is proportional to weight unless you have FAR installed- which institutes a more realistic, but much more CPU-intensive model based on cross-sectional area in the direction of movement).

Nevertheless, it is a more powerful plane than any of my other models- and as such, might conceivably be able to haul more weight in cargo, say, if I swapped the 5 meter fuselage for a 5 meter fuel tank or 5 meter cargo bay (it has no use for fuel, so the fuel would be 'cargo'), or if I loaded extra uranium in the reactors. Its sustainable altitude ceiling is also higher than the Egret or Firefly- at about 31,250 meters on Kerbin, as well as its top speed (I never got a firm number on the Egret, but it was somewhere between 1000 m/s and 1100 m/s). Finally, it can also take off very quickly on a flat surface at Kerbin sea level- due to its high thrust and low wingload- but so can all my other designs except the Firefly (which barely makes it off the runway)- but doesn't land quite as slowly as the original Egret or Eagle: as much of that super-short takeoff is due to very rapid acceleration from its twin engines.

Just to review the previous designs as well:

The Firefly flies more quickly at the altitudes it *is* capable of reaching, due to its 3 engines and higher TWR than my other designs- and with high maneuverability and an altitude ceiling of 18,750 meters on Kerbin (that's about 6420 meters on Duna- similar to the D'OH, but much faster-flying at that altitude- reaching a top speed of 384 m/s at that height on Kerbin) it should still be able to navigate Duna successfully. Its greatest weakness is its very high wingload- which means it relies on two XL radial parachutes to touch down successfully, and has a moderate chance of lawn-darting if they fully deploy before touchdown (I cut them first on Kerbin- but that wouldn't technically be sustainable for long-term operations on Duna- one of the challenge requirements- even if I only did it in emergencies.)

The Egret flies more slowly relative to its altitude than the Firefly, the Eagle, or the Egret 2. It has the second-lowest altitude ceiling of all my designs (about 27,500 meters), and the second slowest touchdown and liftoff speed (after the Eagle)- though all my designs except the Firefly can takeoff on very short cycles, they all touchdown at different speeds due to different reliance on lift vs their Thrust-Weight Ratio to liftoff. It is "handier" than all my designs though- at is is less long and stretched out, and looks like it could take more of a beating in a rough landing without losing parts.

Summary:

'The Firefly': Long takeoff (even on Kerbin), highest speed relative to altitude, dangerous touchdown speed, altitude ceiling of 18,750 m, top speed of 384 m/s, lightest weight

'The Egret': Short takeoff on Kerbin, slowest speed relative to altitude, second-slowest touchdown, altitude ceiling of 29,500 m, top speed of 1200 m/s, medium-weight

'The Egret 2': Super-short takeoff, higher speed relative to altitude, second-fastest touchdown, altitude ceiling of 31,250m, top speed of 1154 m/s, medium-heavy weight

'The Eagle': Shortest takeoff, higher speed relative to altitude, slowest touchdown, altitude ceiling of 32,800 m, top speed of 1242 m/s, lightweight

OTHER NOTES:

- The Egret is the only design with no heat radiators. This is just one of the corners I cut on the design to save on weight (another is no parachutes- though none of my designs feature them except the Firefly). As such its nuclear reactor will overheat to the point of emergency shutdown when left inactive on the ground for too long- but can be manually reactivated after a bit of passive cooling by one of the pilots before takeoff, no harm done (this also technically greatly saves on the need for fuel reprocessing trips- as the reactor will only be operational when in the air, and there is no other way to shut it off besides allowing it to reach emergency overheat). Heat production is NOT a problem at all when the engine is running- as the very airflow that is used to generate the thrust also cools the engine- so there is absolutely no danger of the plane suddenly dropping out of the sky, unless it is allowed to enter an unpowered glide for too long- in which case the reactor WILL overheat.

- The Egret and Firefly currently lack KAS attachment ports (the Eagle and Egret 2 have them). They can be slapped on the rocket before launch if necessary (I doubt it will change their performance much), or if this is allowed, manually attached and detached in the field- since the only time they need them is when they are getting their nuclear fuel reprocessed every once a game-year or so. If this is allowed under the challenge requirements, none of my designs would feature them- as it is far more efficient to just store an extra attachment port attached to the (stationary and safely landed) nuclear fuel reprocessing station, and reattach it to the nuclear turbojet whenever fuel reprocessing is needed, than it is to haul the (tiny bit of) extra weight, drag, and lag through the air on flight after flight when it's not actively needed.

- The Eagle and Firefly's cockpits both have lower impact tolerance than those of the Egret and Egret 2. This somewhat reduces the chance of pilot survival during a crash-landing.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Northstar1989

[Sirine]

@ Northstar1989

Dude, if you try to show how good your planes are...they are weak.

Try the below plane.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/50790-BSC-Ravenspear-Mk-1-And-the-winner-is?p=668836&viewfull=1#post668836

And the challenge.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/58264-Dancing-Jeb-Christmas-is-near-Jeb-decided-to-practice-his-dancing-skill

And the challenges near the end of 1st thread.

Each challenge can be done in 5~10 mins or so, depends on your skill.

[Sirine]

@ Northstar1989

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/58228-The-Enternal-Flyer-Forever-in-the-sky!

My advice... build a craft like above, and let it float at Duna.

[Northstar1989]

@ Northstar1989

Dude, if you try to show how good your planes are...they are weak.

Try the below plane.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/50790-BSC-Ravenspear-Mk-1-And-the-winner-is?p=668836&viewfull=1#post668836

And the challenge.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/58264-Dancing-Jeb-Christmas-is-near-Jeb-decided-to-practice-his-dancing-skill

And the challenges near the end of 1st thread.

Each challenge can be done in 5~10 mins or so, depends on your skill.

OK, first of all, you need to chill. And stop insulting people. I've come across your posts littering many of the forum threads I've read, and they're almost always negative, they almost always put people down. The planes aren't supposed to be infiingliders (which is what you're describing), and they're not out to break speed records on Kerbin either (if they were, I would be using traditional turbojet engines). I've designed MUCH more powerful planes that can fly on Kerbin before. But the point of this challenge is to fly on Duna, not Kerbin- and at that to do so reasonably sustainably (i.e., even if it can fly there, a rocket-powered plane would require frequent refueling- and so is a poor idea on Duna).

Anyways, @ the rest of you.

So, putting aside the smaller, lighter designs that can be strapped to the side of a rocket in 2x symmetry with relative ease, I decided to just go ahead and build a SSTDABK (Single Stage to Duna and Back to Kerbin) spaceplane for the job.

First of all, I decided to go with a 2.5 meter fuselage as the base- since I recently developed the tech node for the gigantic B9 mod wings, but found that they require at least a 2.5 meter fuselage to attach stably. A 2.5 meter fuselage allowed me to accommodate the heavier wings- which in turn meant I could support more cargo mass or crew capacity.

Now, I've traditionally had problems with the weight of my LFO-powered spaceplane attempts, even on Kerbin. I only recently developed my first functional spaceplane (see my Mission Reports thread for images of it), and it is based on a Mk2 fuselage- which is basically just a wider version of a 1.25 meter fuselage that allows a little more room for wing attachments and is wide enough to accommodate two rear-mounted engines. Even the best designs are inherently limited by the low efficiencies of chemical rockets, and the stock NERVA designs are dangerous and unreliable thanks to the engines' tendency to overheat and explode when fired in-atmosphere.

However, I'd been playing around with NearFuture mod's Argon propulsion systems for a while, trying to find a good use for them. I find their high electrical power requirements require a very substantial mass in generation capacity to meet- and as the fuel is very light and low-density, and the engines using them have proportionally low thrust, this extra weight tends to greatly impact the efficiency of the designs and not leave much weight for payload. Thus, previously, I had only thought them useful for launching very, very lightweight probes into orbit using the VASMIR thrusters (which work comparatively well in-atmosphere), or as upper-stage transfer modules for still comparatively light payloads (due to the low mass of ArgonGas held by even the largest of the mod's argon tanks, it is difficult and unwieldy to get enough fuel mass into orbit to provide the necessary impulse for long-distance transport of heavier payloads, even with ArgonGas systems' amazing ISP values. Remember, total impulse = ISP * fuel mass.)

However, a spaceplane is supposed to be relatively lightweight, and does not suffer as much from carrying heavy masses anyways- as aerodynamic lift rather than thrust is the main thing used to counteract gravity. Plus, the larger ArgonGas tanks are so lightweight that they actually make reasonable fuselages in themselves in terms of their ration of mass to length and attachable surface area. So, I designed the spaceplane pictured here-which I currently am simply calling "Advanced Spaceplane", but will come up with a better name for soon...

Here she is shortly after taking off the runway:

She features a crew capacity of 7, two thermal turbojets, and 2 VASMIR Plasma Thrusters. The plasma thrusters burn argon, and work relatively well even at sea level (ISP= 250), but are intended for use in the upper atmosphere to push the plane into orbit, where their ISP exceeds 6400. I packed five of the largest ArgonGas tanks into the design- for a little over 1.74 total tons of fuel (still not much in absolute terms- but the Advanced Spaceplane is very light, so more than enough to at least carry the thing to Duna if I use the Mun for a gravity assist- maybe even enough for a return trip without refueling if I use Ike the same way.) What's more, and the main reason this design is efficient- the plan is already carrying two 1.25 meter nuclear reactors to power its thermal turbojets, so all I needed to do to provide electrical power for the plasma thrusters was to slap an electrical generator onto each.

Now, one thing that I absolutely have to point out about the design- you can't get something for nothing. The electrical generators don't spin up any further when the thermal turbojets are running (the reactors' power is used to provide thrust instead). However they *DO* keep any speed they were allowed to spin up while on the runway. And KSP Interstellar Mod's electrical generators keep that speed for a VERY long time (perhaps even indefinitely). Even if they do slowly spin down, like a real-life generator, it's easy enough for me to wait on the runway until they are fully spun-up, and THEN liftoff. The generators are capable of converting the stored mechanical energy built up on the runway into electrical energy as needed in flight- and providing more than enough electricity to make it to orbit.

Thus, I have a spaceplane that, if allowed to spin up its generators for a bit of time on the runway (it only takes them a few minutes to fully spin up), is more than capable of making it to orbit. However, I didn't fully realize the generators wouldn't spin up in-flight on my first flight, and so didn't think to wait for a spin-up cycle on the runway. As a result, I only made it to about 32,000 meters (with a steadily increasing rate of climb) before my plasma thrusters cut out unexpectedly on my first flight. I was able to pull out of the resultant tailspin I entered into (I didn't react fast enough to pull the nose back down closer to the horizon, and the plane stalled at about 36,000 meters and started falling like a rock), but I needed to land to let the generators spin back up and try this all again...

It took nearly an hour for the plane to climb to its peak speed (a little over 465 m/s) at its maximum curising altitude (about 21,250 meters on Kerbin with turbojets only, 32% uranium, and a full fuel load of ArgonGas), so I haven't gotten in another full attempt yet. However the plane is spinning up on the runway as I speak (I reverted rather then go through the hassle of flying the rest of the way around Kerbin and landing the thing), so I should have a trip to Duna to report on relatively soon if all goes smoothly.

By the way, one last note on the design, if anybody is looking to utilize the design or engineer a better version of the thing (I'll post the text for the craft file if anyone wants it)- this model DOES feature a radiator, unlike the Egret- but it is a very small one, too small to dissipate the heat quite as fast as it generates when both the electrical generators and reactors are running. This means that it IS theoretically possible to overheat the reactors on the ground if one somehow kept the generators running for a really long time (they stop generating WasteHeat as soon as they are fully spun up though, and the radiators give off more heat the hotter the craft gets- so it is very difficult and would probably take something like several DAYS or WEEKS of continuous operation- i.e. don't try to power a Science Lab on the ground performing research with the plane for a long period of time via a KAS which in docking mode- as the reactors will probably eventually just overheat and shutdown, leaving the lab unpowered- though the emergency auto-shutdown heat levels of 95% max normally cause no damage to the plane, you have to somehow heat it even further to 100% to create an explosion.)

I know it's not much, and very technical, but I thought I'd start off by presenting the plane and some of its technical challenges and advantages, so my next post (on my actual trip to Duna with it) won't be nearly as long. I hope you guys enjoyed it nonetheless.

Oh, and Sirine, *DON'T* reply to this thread- I don't have the patience for your antics tonight.

Time to go now. The spaceplane finished a full spin-up cycle on 1x time while I was writing this post. Time to get that (space)plane to orbit.

Regards,

Northstar

Edited November 16, 2013 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

Ok, first of all, I want to start off by apologizing if I sounded like I was being a little meant to Sirine in my last post. She sent me a very nice private message apologizing, and said the word "weak" doesn't mean the same thing in her culture- so apology accepted.

Anyways, it turns out my Advanced Spaceplane *WAS* just a little too weak to escape Kerbin's atmosphere with only two plasma engines- so I upgraded it to four!

Unfortunately, while it did (just barely) have enough thrust that it looked like it probably would have escaped the atmosphere, it didn't have enough stored electrical and mechanical power in the generators to run four VASMIR Plasma Engines for that long- my plane was only able to run them for about 10-12 minutes, and climb to a peak altitude of about 32,000 meters again before they power ran out (they each require 120 ElectricalCharge a *SECOND* at full thrust!) even with a full spin-up cycle this time.

This is an image of the four-engine version shortly after takeoff on Kerbin:

And this is an image of it about a minute before it ran out of power (the vast majority of which is stored as Megajoules- not Electric Charge) during the burn:

The spaceplane definitely DOES have enough power to make it out of Duna's atmosphere in its current state (especially since I found that, when the thrust is dialed slightly back, the reactors have a bit of power to divert to the generators- allowing me to top them off just before my escape burn, as the energy systems do slowly lose a bit of power over time with the drain of both the SAS and full-throttle thermal turbojets...), as the scale height is much less- meaning the atmosphere falls off much more quickly; the gravity is lower, allowing for higher cruising speed before the escape burn; and the plane was able to reach a peak speed during the burn on Kerbin that was in excess of the minimal required orbital velocity on Duna (950 m/s at 42,000 meters, the atmosphere ends just a couple hundred below that- my plane exceeded 1200 m/s with an upwards component during the burn).

So, I basically have three options at this point.

Option A: I abandon using Argon for the escape system entirely. Currently, the whole thing has a mass in excess of the fuselages that would replace it of about 4.2 tons- a solid 4 tons of which is in the engines (the ArgonGas being very light, and the tanks having an incredibly low dry mass when empty- to the point where I could save a lot of mass on my spaceplane by using empty ones as fuselages...) I MIGHT be able to achieve better results with a similar, or slightly heavier, escape package based on a stock NERVA engine- but wouldn't have any fuel left after reaching orbit, and would have to refuel (though I'll probably also do this with the Argon too- just to be sure I have enough fuel for the return trip). The NERVA engines also have the very worrisome problem of tending to overheat and explode if fired for too long in-atmosphere.

Option B: I abandon the single-stage to orbit part of the idea (and lose the potential points) and just try and strap the thing to a rocket. It has a lot of mass and lift for this though, so I doubt it would work on all but possibly the largest and most complex 5 meter rockets.

Option C: I make use of another feature of the KSP Interstellar mod, besides the nuclear thermal turbojet engines- and construct a microwave relay station in orbit of Kerbin to provide the spaceplane with extra electrical power during ascent. This would be sure to work, with a sufficiently powerful relay station- as the spaceplane did just barely have enough thrust to escape Kerbin already. Actually, this option has another even greater advantage- it would allow me to upgrade the spaceplane by replacing its Argon propulsion system with a hydrogen one- which is even lighter and generates a lot more thrust (147% more per engine, to be precise), but requires even more massive amounts of electricity.

The main advantage of the Hydrogen thrust system is the lighter weight, and thus improved in-atmosphere performance on Duna. The disadvantage of this system is that HydrogenGas' very low density allows me to pack even less Delta V into the spaceplane- not nearly enough to make it Duna and back without several refueling trips- likely one after reaching orbit, one in orbit of the Mun, one on the ground on Duna, and one in orbit of Duna before returning. But hey, the challenge requirements never specified that a SSTDABK plane had to make it all on one fill of fuel, did they? Besides, hydrogen is very light- meaning it would take VERY little energy for me to set up very high-volume depots of the stuff at all of these locations (enough to refuel the spaceplane two or three times each), with my existing lifter designs. The hydrogen propulsion idea would also require a much more massive microwave relay station (the existing spaceplane propelled into orbit by Argon would probably only need a relatively modest microwave relay station in orbit of Kerbin to provide it with the extra power to make it to orbit- though I'll probably over-engineer the station anyways, just to be safe). It might also very well require an additional such station in orbit of Duna- since the hydrogen engines are so power-hungry. The existing argon-powered spaceplane could could escape Duna just fine even without any help, on the other hand- and might still be able to receive a very small amount of additional power from the station in orbit of Kerbin during the transfer window to make a return trip there- if the transmission losses aren't too great over that distance.

Once again, I need some input- about a good way to get the spaceplane to orbit- are there other options I haven't thought of? Right now, I'm planning on going with Option C, the Orbital Construction mod, and my existing spacedock, to set up a massive solar power plant/ microwave relay in orbit of Kerbin- constructed partly out of recycled scrap metal from orbital debris, and partly out of additional RocketParts I'd send up (which I guess would represent the actual solar panels in the station themselves). The spaceplane itself would be constructed on the ground on Kerbin, of course- but nowhere in the challenge requirements does it state that any space stations or fuel depots that support the mission (which is essentially what this is) need to be constructed on the ground or launched to Kerbin orbit in one piece- especially ones I won't ever even be docking with.

Maybe I should just abandon the whole spaceplane thing, and stick with my existing designs (the Egret 2 or Eagle)- which can fly a lot higher on Kerbin (and thus also on Duna) than the spaceplane anyways (which only can hold 21,250 meters on turbojet power alone on Kerbin with two VASMIR engines attached for escape, or a bit over 16,500 with four)- and in the case of the Eagle might even be able to perform suborbital hops based purely on its turbojet power on Duna, without any assistance (though the usefulness of this in returning the vessel to Kerbin- if I ever wished to do so- is highly questionable).

Advice is welcomed.

Regards,

Northstar

Edited November 16, 2013 by Northstar1989

[1D-1()T]

If your space planes can make that 1200 m/s on Duna your apoapsis would be out of the atmosphere, so you could just pack some RCS to raise the periapsis.

[Sirine]

@Northstar Thanks for understanding. Your enthusiasm for Duna flying is unbeatable*.

For Duna, you need lots of lift force. Hence more wings always help. But more lift doesn't means good, if your craft weight too much. So, if you can make your craft gliding as at 'Eternal flying' challenge, you can make it fly "more easily" at Duna (less thrust, less fuel).

The most ideal atmospheric altitude at Duna are between 3000~4000m. And you got most of the mountain raise above 3500m. Which make things very difficult.

Anyway, wish you all the best flying Duna.

[Geschosskopf]

@ Teirusu:

Well, you're off to a good start. I wish you luck getting that off Kerbin, though. As Northstar mentioned, those flexible wings will probably cause serious trouble at the high speeds needed to get into orbit unless you come up with some creative strutting.

@ Northstar:

How do you find time to actually design and fly so many designs with all the typing you do? I type 60wpm and consider myself fairly fast but you must be way faster . I hate to say it, though, but I find it hard to read all your posts, especially with all the parenthetical asides that break my rather limited train of thought . Thus, I'm afraid I'm probably not answering all your questions.

Anyway, you asked which plane to send to Duna. I say send them all at once. This is because you haven't HyperEdited them to actually see how they fly on Duna so you don't know if any of them will actually work. Better to have several options available just in case. And if none of them end up working, at least you have a bigger data set from which to design something new.

My own experience with the Near Future engines is that if your ship weighs more than about 5 tons, they're not too useful. This is because the weight you have to add to provide the electricity for multiple engines quickly outpaces the added thrust of using multiple engines. Bottom line is, for anything bigger than a Minmus lander, your ejection burn time is going to be too huge to do it in LKO, so you'll have to first get yourself into a very high orbit, like out there by Mun, so the turn radius is big enough that you stay heading the right direction the whole burn. The problem with that, however, is that getting out as far as Mun requires about 900m/s from LKO, compared to about 1100m/s needed to get to Duna. So why bother?

[Northstar1989]

@ Northstar:

How do you find time to actually design and fly so many designs with all the typing you do? I type 60wpm and consider myself fairly fast but you must be way faster . I hate to say it, though, but I find it hard to read all your posts, especially with all the parenthetical asides that break my rather limited train of thought . Thus, I'm afraid I'm probably not answering all your questions.

Anyway, you asked which plane to send to Duna. I say send them all at once. This is because you haven't HyperEdited them to actually see how they fly on Duna so you don't know if any of them will actually work. Better to have several options available just in case. And if none of them end up working, at least you have a bigger data set from which to design something new.

My own experience with the Near Future engines is that if your ship weighs more than about 5 tons, they're not too useful. This is because the weight you have to add to provide the electricity for multiple engines quickly outpaces the added thrust of using multiple engines. Bottom line is, for anything bigger than a Minmus lander, your ejection burn time is going to be too huge to do it in LKO, so you'll have to first get yourself into a very high orbit, like out there by Mun, so the turn radius is big enough that you stay heading the right direction the whole burn. The problem with that, however, is that getting out as far as Mun requires about 900m/s from LKO, compared to about 1100m/s needed to get to Duna. So why bother?

Some good points there Geschosskopf. By the way, it takes me a while to type my posts, and I do tend to type them very fast. Also, if you watch as they appear very carefully, I don't make them all in one go- I often write something, post it, and then edit in more writing 10-30 minutes later after doing something else in-go. Or just keep the reply editor window open the whole time, and refresh the page right before posting.

Anyways, I'm really not sure I want to launch all FIVE plane design to Duna. Especially because, after some further thought, I've decided that the 'Firefly' is pretty much a death-tap on Duna- due to its very high landing/takeoff speeds (it would be a good choice for somewhere with a thicker atmosphere, like Eve, however).

I'm also not so sure I want to launch the original 'Egret' design, when both the 'Eagle' and 'Egret 2' are essentially improved versions of it that took some aspect of its ability to stay in the air- either its thrust system or its low wingload- and improved it, in both cases without adversely affecting the other parameter by much (the Eagle actually has a better TWR, as well as lower wingload. The Egret 2 has a much higher TWR, but mildly higher wingload).

I'm partial to using the Egret 2 for utilitarian purposes (read: transportation of cargo- probably by replacing the structural fuselage with a fuel tank or cargo bay of the same length), but the Eagle for passenger transport and 'winning' the challenge- since on Kerbin it outperforms all my other craft, especially the Advanced Spaceplane (if I can ever get it to orbit- my Microwave Relay Station is designed, and all I have to do is construct it at this point), in terms of turbojet-only altitude ceiling and thus Challenge Points; and due to its lower weight and nearly identical total lift, it's also a little bit easier to get to Duna than the Egret 2.

Unless... Does a spaceplane get the 'bonus points' for a higher altitude ceiling during the portion of its ascent where it is still in aerodynamic flight, but is using all its engines? Normally, I'd see the answer being NO, but the Advanced Spaceplane has such weak TWR, even with all engines active, that it essentially has to remain in aerodynamic (rather than ballistic) flight for 10-15 MINUTES with all engines active (yes, you read that right- the ArgonGas lasts a really long time...) before it reaches the point where its thrust is sufficient relative to gravity and drag to set the thing on a ballistic trajectory... It is capable of circumnavigating Duna several times with its ArgonGas engines active in addition to the Thermal Turbojets- provided it has enough electrical power.

For this same reason, and the incredibly fuel-efficiency they provide, I will probably use the Plasma Thrusters as an additional boost just to boost climb rate or ensure I can safely climb over particularly tall mountain ranges on Duna... The generators are capable of recharging in-flight, if I deactivate the Plasma Thrusters and dial the thrust back down a tiny bit later on, so there's no worry that doing this too much would eventually lead to engine failure and the spaceplane dropping out of the sky...

[Northstar1989]

One last thought Geschookpf- and I'm breaking this into a separate post, so as to try not to break your train of thought:

The NearFuture mod engines are indeed very difficult to use properly on their own due to their very high electrical consumption and the inadequate solutions Nearfuture mod offers to power them (some slightly better solar panels, and some nuclear reactors that *slightly* exceed the stock solar panels in terms of EC/s per ton of mass- and Capacitors, which are the mod's best solution to the problem for a sufficiently large craft to use them properly).

However KSP Interstellar mod offers some excellent solutions for power energy-hungry engines like these: ranging from the nuclear reactors with a massive generation and storage potential relative to mass (but very high mass, and the requirement for UF6 fuel), to the Microwave Power Relay system, which is an actual technology that is being developed and is currently still in theory stages here on Earth (actually, all its technologies are- even the Alcubierre Warp Drive is a rel-life idea scientists have proposed and are debating the plausibility of), and is quite well-balanced in terms of gameplay as far as I can tell (wait until you see how big and bulky my Microwave Relay Station is- and how little power it transmits relative to its enormous size and mass).

Using KSP Interstellar's technologies (the thermal turbojets and the Microwave Relay system), I found I am able to put the NearFuture mod's ArgonGas engines to good use- on a SSTDABK spaceplane at least (the whole system is overly complex and barely provides enough thrust to escape Kerbin, but is incredibly lightweight- which is an absolute necessity for the spaceplane to actually be able to FLY well on Duna with only the thermal turbojets active...)

Edited November 16, 2013 by Northstar1989

[Geschosskopf]

@ Northstar:

I'd still send everything you've got. No matter what you think from tests on Kerbin, you simply can't test landing on Duna at all because Kerbin has no ground high enough for the job. The highest point on Kerbin is only 6761m, well below the 16-17km needed to approximate the challenge's 2500m minimum Duna landing altitude. And landing safely is the hardest part of the Duna end of the project. It's not very difficult to combine sufficient wing with sufficient horsepower to take off and remain airborne, and maneuvering while in flight is more a matter of your own learning what you can and can't do than a design problem.

But safe landings on Duna are extremely difficult and you haven't tried one yet. Expect to botch your first few attempts, even with planes that can slow down enough to have a chance. You'll have learn how to set up and fly your approach which takes some practice, and you'll probably also have to tweak the design to provide more braking force and/or survive bouncing up and down sand dunes on all extremities without flipping over. So if you don't want to send a bunch of different designs, send multiple copies of the same design, and perhaps with a variety of slight modifications anticipating possible problems. That way, you can wreck a few planes during your learning process and still have something to try the challenge with.

As to spaceplanes, the challenge is to fly using aerodynamic lift. As long as the plane can do that without going into a thrust-induced ballistic trajectory, then it's OK. Challenge runs, however, have to be all aerodynamic. So divide its functions into separate flights. Land it the 1st time, then keep a tight leash on it so it stays an airplane when doing challenge flights to land again. Once you've shown what it can do that way, then pile on full sail and leave Duna for bonus points.

For challenge purposes, as long as the plane is actually being held up by aerodynamic lift instead on a ballistic, thrust-induced trajectory, then that counts for meeting the basic specs. If you can then throttle it up a bit more and leave Duna, that's a bonus.

[Northstar1989]

@ Northstar:

I'd still send everything you've got. No matter what you think from tests on Kerbin, you simply can't test landing on Duna at all because Kerbin has no ground high enough for the job. The highest point on Kerbin is only 6761m, well below the 16-17km needed to approximate the challenge's 2500m minimum Duna landing altitude. And landing safely is the hardest part of the Duna end of the project. It's not very difficult to combine sufficient wing with sufficient horsepower to take off and remain airborne, and maneuvering while in flight is more a matter of your own learning what you can and can't do than a design problem.

But safe landings on Duna are extremely difficult and you haven't tried one yet. Expect to botch your first few attempts, even with planes that can slow down enough to have a chance. You'll have learn how to set up and fly your approach which takes some practice, and you'll probably also have to tweak the design to provide more braking force and/or survive bouncing up and down sand dunes on all extremities without flipping over. So if you don't want to send a bunch of different designs, send multiple copies of the same design, and perhaps with a variety of slight modifications anticipating possible problems. That way, you can wreck a few planes during your learning process and still have something to try the challenge with.

As to spaceplanes, the challenge is to fly using aerodynamic lift. As long as the plane can do that without going into a thrust-induced ballistic trajectory, then it's OK. Challenge runs, however, have to be all aerodynamic. So divide its functions into separate flights. Land it the 1st time, then keep a tight leash on it so it stays an airplane when doing challenge flights to land again. Once you've shown what it can do that way, then pile on full sail and leave Duna for bonus points.

For challenge purposes, as long as the plane is actually being held up by aerodynamic lift instead on a ballistic, thrust-induced trajectory, then that counts for meeting the basic specs. If you can then throttle it up a bit more and leave Duna, that's a bonus.

The problem is, it's a blurry distinction between airplane and spaceplane with this particular model.

Whereas most spaceplanes reach orbit by pointing their nose steeply up, and raising their apoapsis above the atmosphere, that's not how this one works. Instead, at least in flight tests on Kerbin, it keeps gradually raising its altitude, and raising its periapsis instead- always near peak altitude- and keeping just barely enough thrust for the wings to keep it climbing very slowly. Its TWR is so low that it is incapable of reaching an actual ballistic trajectory- it can never climb much faster than 10-25 m/s. Technically, it's a super-high altitude plane with the plasma thrusters engaged: and simply is capable of flying at the very edge of the atmosphere.

Normal planes can't do this (at least in KSP *without* FAR installed- it is possible with a Blackbird-style plane with FAR installed as drag falls off in FAR at hypersonic speeds), as their jet engines start to lose thrust above a certain altitude, eventually being unable to cancel out drag and the component of lift slowing the plane down. But plasma thrusters don't- they work equally well at all altitudes, though their fuel (argon) consumption drops as they climb higher. They also don't heave nearly the kind of potential burn times that an argon-plane does (this thing could run its engines for something close to an hour at full thrust).

Technically, it is always mostly aerodynamic lift holding it up (it has a very low wingload)- as relative gravity falls off the faster the plane flies, allowing the exponentially decreasing lift to still hold the plane up. That being said, it also has a minor component of its (very weak) thrust holding it up- as it always has its nose pointed well above the horizon in the uppermost atmosphere, very close to 45 degrees (to maximize lift, which hits a peak at a 45 degree angle of attack at a given speed). But as I said, the TWR is much, much less than 1 at almost all altitudes. Only in the last ten thousand meters or so of atmosphere, when its speed has climbed very high (and relative gravity is thus very low) is its effective ratio of thrust to gravity (TWR in its most literal sense- though many players use the term in change of thrust-to-mass ratio in stable orbits in space: where objects have mass, but no "weight") actually high enough to enter a ballistic trajectory.

This, as you can see, kind of blurs the line between spaceplane and plane: at what point (other than where the atmosphere completely cuts out) do you consider a plane to truly be in space?

Long tangent aside, I haven't developed a rocket to carry the Eagle to orbit yet- but I did construct a Microwave Power Station (I mixed up my terminology before: Microwave *RELAY* stations are for bouncing the energy to reach places the power station doesn't have a direct line of sight on. KSP Interstellar adds these too- although I don't have any constructed at the moment).

Here's an image. A couple design notes first though:

The thing on the very bottom is a Yawmaster Service Module. It's the lightest weight (measured in Dry Mass) possible way of holding a single Kerbal (inside- not on a lawnchair) in orbit, and also holds a tiny bit of LFO mix, Electricharge, and Monopropellant. It's technically unnecessary, but mostly for roleplaying "maintenance" and crew storage in emergency purposes- such as if I manage to strand another one of my LFO-fueled spaceplanes in LKO. Above it is an inline heat-radiator: for dealing with WasteHeat produced by the solar panels. The thing on the top is the Microwave Power Transmitter- that's what beams the power down to my Advanced Spaceplane. It doesn't need to be facing the target to work correctly. Finally, the panels themselves are 8 "Megalador Solar Panel Arrays" from the NearFuture mod- basically they're just like upscaled, slightly more mass-efficient, but even more fragile, stock Gigantor XL panels.

This thing produces 576 kW of energy and is capable of relaying something like up to 91% of that when directly overhead (when the Advanced Spaceplane is landed)- but falling off exponentially with distance to the spaceplane and distance through the atmosphere... So I over-estimated the transmission losses and greatly over-engineered the thing. That should be more than enough power to give my Advanced Spaceplane the extra push it needs to get to orbit on Argon- and maybe even enough to run a hydrogen propulsion system, though I have no intention of trying that yet, as, though it would improve performance; it would greatly increase the need for refueling stops on its round trip to Duna.

Here is the launch window from Kerbin I am about to use- as you'll notice, the relay station is still well behind the plane on the horizon. It take a little more than one orbital period for the Spaceplane to reach maximum altitude from liftoff- so if I've timed this right, it should have the maximum period of time after it starts its escape burn with a line-of-sight on the station... Duna is also very nearly to a good transfer window on the solar system map- which gives me a bit of time to refuel and get the spaceplane into a good orbit around the Mun (that way, I can store a large amount of energy in my Munar orbit, and won't need quite as much thrust to make the transfer), but not so much that my Kerbals will be waiting forever...

I'm about to begin (after a quick shower, dinner, and an update to my Missions Reports thread) what should be, if all goes smoothly, my first challenge run. I'll let you know how it goes and post a partial update after the spaceplane has reached LKO.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

OK, so my attempt didn't quite work out as well as I planned- even with the aid of the Microwave Relay Station.

The main problem I had was that the Microwave Power Station is in a very low orbit- and so loses much of its power to transmitting through low angles into the atmosphere (it transmits up to 85% of its energy when directly overhead, but as little as 1% when it has a small angle and has to transmit through a lot of atmosphere). It also moves position relative to the spaceplane very rapidly, leading to a very small window for the escape burn.

Eventually, I am going to need to figure out a way to move the station to a higher orbit- which has no docking ports, no KAS winches, and no KAS connector ports... I could manually attach a radial KAS connector port (the small radial connectors can be added and removed by Kerbals on EVA) as close to the center of gravity as possible, and attempt to tow it with a specialized tug- but I'm more likely just to recycle the thing and build a new one after I move the entire Spacedock to a higher orbit...

In the meantime, though, I made some design refinements to the Advanced Spaceplane that might very well allow it to escape Kerbin's gravity *without* an improved orbit for the Microwave Power Station (though I will still need the very limited assistance a low-orbit microwave power station can provide).

First of all, before I present the new and improved Advanced Spaceplane Mk2, let me present another craft I've been working on. I present, the 'Eagle Mk2':

Here she is shortly after takeoff:

And here she is during the high altitude portion of that test flight:

Unfortunately, she didn't nearly reach peak altitude or speed (she reached about 27,000 meters and 1,080 m/s) though, as I left the game running unpaused for a bit to quickly use the toilet, and when I came back her angle of attack had climbed to a level she was incapable of controlling at that altitude. However given her *VERY LOW* angle of attack to gain both speed and altitude at the same time even at over 25,000 meters, I suspect she will easily shatter my height and speed records for the Eagle Mk1.

Her biggest weakness is that she has very little control surface relative to her wing area- which means she can easily lose control if her angle of attack climbs too high in the lower part of here altitude range. And by "lower", I mean anything below 30,000 meters (she can probably reach at least 40,000- on par with my best jet planes). And by "high angle of attack", I mean anything over 18 degrees below 28,000 meters. As you can infer, I *MIGHT* need to make some control refinements before she's ready for Duna.

Anyways, my main focus has been my spaceplane designs. Here is the Advanced Spaceplane Mk2 shortly off the runway:

And here is the launch window I used. Bad timing as always- I'm going to need to get this down to more of a science...

Now, about the Mk2:

The main insight I had was that the engine weight was greatly decreasing the plane's performance, and was such a significant fraction of plane mass that a light, less powerful engine could actually IMPROVE the TWR- and as it so happened, I had one available that was both lighter and more powerful, but achieved much less ISP and required more electrical power... The Pulsed Inductive Plasma Thrusters XL, from NearFuture Mod, namely. They use ArgonGas, like the VASMIR engines, but weight less than half as much. They consume 10% more power per second though, and achieve only a bit better than 1/3 the ISP (around 2400 instead of 6400). However, I realized my escape burns were taking so long (10-15 minutes) that I could GREATLY reduce total power consumption with a more powerful burn- even if it was less efficient with the electricity. The engines I used were only slightly more powerful (9.70 kN instead of 9.60)- but their reduced weight (2.4 TONS of weight savings when using four of them) meant my entire craft was significantly lighter, and the TWR much better.

My other insight was that I could still benefit a great deal form additional wing area. First, some tweaking with the Advanced Spaceplane, and then seeing how well the Eagle Mk2 performed with its additional wing area vs. the Eagle Mk1 (which was previously my lowest-wingload design yet), convinced me of the need to add additional wing area to the spaceplane. The additional wing area has three main benefits:

Firstly, by raising my altitude ceiling on turbojets, I raise both my max landspeed before activating my plasma thrusters, and the amount of amount of atmosphere I need to escape though. This means a shorter escape burn, allowing for more rapid power consumption during the burn.

Second, and this was not lost on me, then entire point of the spaceplane is to perform well on Duna. If more wing area raises altitude ceiling on Kerbin, it DEFINITELY will on Duna (where the lower gravity means the ideal winglaod is even less than on Kerbin).

Third, it helps with touchdown velocity. The less wingload my plane has, the slower it can touch down on Duna. I had already previously thought about trying to add a third turbojet to the craft, but had decided against it for precisely this reason- even if it raised my altitude ceiling on Duna and Kerbin, it would definitely also raise my touchdown velocity by a lot.

So, I added as much additional wing area to the craft as I could cram in. I even ignored matters of appearance and extended some trailing edges beyond the edge of my main wings, due to the inability of the editor to allow me to place additional trailing edges along certain points of the wing without them angling inwards at an inappropriate angle...

I've currently had the Advanced Spaceplane Mk2 in a long cruise near max altitude while I wrote this, waiting for the Microwave Power Station to come into position. I'll be trying to escape Kerbin soon- and this time I think it will work. I have a good feeling about my new design. Here she is at a high cruising altitude (not quite max) by the way. The previous design MAXED at a bit over 16km without plasma thrusters:

And as you might notice on the image, I see the Microwave Relay Receiver dish has just opened- which means my Microwave Power Station is sufficiently close to transmit, and it's past time (a good bit late, in fact) to begin my escape burn...

See you guys in orbit- on this attempt or the next (as I said, I should have started the escape burn BEFORE the station was overhead- so it might not make it this time around.)

Regards,

Northstar