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[WIP] Nert's Dev Thread - Current: methalox expansion released, see CryoEngines thread


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41 minutes ago, Nertea said:

I am looking for reasonable engines to fill 2.5m and 3.75m vacuum slots (the 3.75m will likely be a cluster), that's about it, the scope is pretty fixed. I won't be putting aerospikes in this mod (decision I made a while ago). 

Ok. Maybe we need a Near Future Aero(spikes) :wink:

The RD-0169A for the Amur rocket might be decent. Seems like it would be more of a 1.25/875 though.

After a quick look, most of the others are smaller launch vehicles. Aeon 1 (Relativity Space), Mira LM10 (WIP Italian upper stage), and it looks like Firefly Aerospace is also making one.

Other than that, there doesn't seem to be a lot out there. Perhaps a methalox RL-10 variant or a J-2XM? 

Something else I just thought of: A Methalox RAPIER type engine. Probably better for NFA though.This link has a few ideas, but it's mostly russian concept engines  http://www.astronautix.com/l/loxlch4.html 

Sorry for the kind of garbled thought process. That's just how I roll :confused:

EDIT: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20170005557 Some NASA concepts for ya. I think the French 1 MN design might fit the bill.

Also I kind of assumed you were already planning a BE-4 and Raptor/vac, but for a Starship Lunar variant, maybe a radial attachable  engine in the vein of the NFS landing/abort motors?

even more

Edited by Spaceman.Spiff
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12 hours ago, Nertea said:

It's getting near time again. So let's fire up an early 2020 meme. 

Next project on the launch pad is the methalox expansion for CryoEngines. This will be a full set of engines from 0.625m to 3.75m, in booster and vacuum flavours for each size class. Let the good times roll!

Starting with two 0.625m engines, based on the ESA Prometheus concept...

And the RS-18.

A most excellent development. 

I assume this will include a Raptor analogue?

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1 minute ago, MatterBeam said:

A most excellent development. 

I assume this will include a Raptor analogue?

he had one last time but it was way too big to use so hopefully nertea makes the engines kerbal scale

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37 minutes ago, Nertea said:

I am looking for reasonable engines to fill 2.5m and 3.75m vacuum slots (the 3.75m will likely be a cluster), that's about it, the scope is pretty fixed. I won't be putting aerospikes in this mod (decision I made a while ago). 

To fill the 2.5m vacuum slot, there could be a hypothetical RD-0169AV engine. The RD-0169A engine actually exists, and will be used in a cluster of 5 for the Falcon 9 clone that is the Russian Amur. The Amur is 4.1m IRL, which translates to a good-enough KSP scale of 2.6m.

We don't really know any information about the upper stage, but judging by the first-stage landing trajectory (somewhere along the Sea of Okhotsk from Vostochny), the upper stage is analogous in size and weight to F9 S2. It probably is using a vacuum-optimized version of the first-stage engine because it hasn't been explicitly stated to use a repurposed RD-0124 or something. There is some precedent for using RD-0169 in vac, as Anatoly Zak says in his article on the Soyuz-5 (Feniks) "By 2015, the second stage was expected to feature the RD-0169 engine.".

This engine would leave a lot to the artist's discretion, but the powerhead that we have seen in models already on the RD-0169A would stay the same, and the nozzle would be a relatively simple regeneratively-cooled setup.

As for 3.75, I really don't know what to do. Cluster would make sense, but of what? Maybe a few RS-18's on a plate, kind of like those proposals to use it as a Mars ascent engine?

Spoiler

Found this truly amazing quote while researching:

"We would like our [Amur] rocket to be reliable, like a Kalashnikov assault rifle." --Alexander Bloshenko

 

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3 minutes ago, Starhelperdude said:

I mean, where in the CTT, like early-late or only late in the tech tree

I'm guessing mixed in with LFO and hydrolox ones throuhout based on capabilities (smaller and less efficient => larger and more efficient). I wonder if there'll be separate methalox tanks (like the current hydralox ones), or if they'll be a part variant (like NSW vs fission fragments in FFT).

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Just now, Apelsin said:

they'll be a part variant

Yep. It's already integrated into CryoTanks; currently hidden because it's not used. So you can use almost any tank for it:)

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1 hour ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

EDIT: https://ntrs.nasa.gov/citations/20170005557 Some NASA concepts for ya. I think the French 1 MN design might fit the bill.

That French design turned into Prometheus (baselined at 940 kN)

1 hour ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

The RD-0169A for the Amur rocket might be decent. Seems like it would be more of a 1.25/875 though.

Also practically no references, which is a bigger problem.

2 hours ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

Also I kind of assumed you were already planning a BE-4 and Raptor/vac, but for a Starship Lunar variant, maybe a radial attachable  engine in the vein of the NFS landing/abort motors?

Yes, those are already in there. Lunar starship stuff not really, you'd probably cover that fairly well using the RS18 and some sort of cowling.

2 hours ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

TQ11/12 is already in :)

1 hour ago, Clamp-o-Tron said:

To fill the 2.5m vacuum slot, there could be a hypothetical RD-0169AV engine. The RD-0169A engine actually exists, and will be used in a cluster of 5 for the Falcon 9 clone that is the Russian Amur. The Amur is 4.1m IRL, which translates to a good-enough KSP scale of 2.6m.

We don't really know any information about the upper stage, but judging by the first-stage landing trajectory (somewhere along the Sea of Okhotsk from Vostochny), the upper stage is analogous in size and weight to F9 S2. It probably is using a vacuum-optimized version of the first-stage engine because it hasn't been explicitly stated to use a repurposed RD-0124 or something. There is some precedent for using RD-0169 in vac, as Anatoly Zak says in his article on the Soyuz-5 (Feniks) "By 2015, the second stage was expected to feature the RD-0169 engine.".

This engine would leave a lot to the artist's discretion, but the powerhead that we have seen in models already on the RD-0169A would stay the same, and the nozzle would be a relatively simple regeneratively-cooled setup.

I'm not really a fan of 'at the artist's discretion' for high detail engines. I did that for a number of the NFLV engines and did not enjoy it. If you can find me sufficient quality references for the SL version I can probably consider it. 

1 hour ago, Clamp-o-Tron said:

To fill the 2.5m vacuum slot, there could be a hypothetical RD-0169AV engine. The RD-0169A engine actually exists, and will be used in a cluster of 5 for the Falcon 9 clone that is the Russian Amur. The Amur is 4.1m IRL, which translates to a good-enough KSP scale of 2.6m.

We don't really know any information about the upper stage, but judging by the first-stage landing trajectory (somewhere along the Sea of Okhotsk from Vostochny), the upper stage is analogous in size and weight to F9 S2. It probably is using a vacuum-optimized version of the first-stage engine because it hasn't been explicitly stated to use a repurposed RD-0124 or something. There is some precedent for using RD-0169 in vac, as Anatoly Zak says in his article on the Soyuz-5 (Feniks) "By 2015, the second stage was expected to feature the RD-0169 engine.".

This engine would leave a lot to the artist's discretion, but the powerhead that we have seen in models already on the RD-0169A would stay the same, and the nozzle would be a relatively simple regeneratively-cooled setup.

One option is to somehow develop the LSAM/CEV pressure-fed engine from Constellation and make a cluster out of that, which would represent the Mars stuff fairly well. However ,that would be a fairly large cluster to make something that works in the 3.75m area.

1 hour ago, Starhelperdude said:

will the methalox engines all be located further in the tech tree?

Can't really say now but probably similar to CryoEngines, same or +1 node from the equivalent kerolox

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56 minutes ago, Nertea said:

Also practically no references, which is a bigger problem.

I'm not really a fan of 'at the artist's discretion' for high detail engines. I did that for a number of the NFLV engines and did not enjoy it. If you can find me sufficient quality references for the SL version I can probably consider it. 

This has been surprisingly hard to find. If someone has a RussianSpaceWeb subscription they can check this out: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/protected/amur-spg.html

There are some other sources I managed to scrape together-

Quote

- The methane theme is mainly carried out by the KBKhA, now the Voronezh rocket engine-building center. The work has been going on for a long time and is funded from the Federal Space Program. We must create an RD-0177 demonstrator engine, and subsequently its flight version, RD-0169, will be built. Tests of individual elements of the units - gas generator, mixing head were carried out. Now we turn to work directly on the manufacture of the RD-0177 demonstrator engine. Further, the task is set: to confirm the possibility of using these components already on the flight version as soon as possible, this will be RD-0169. We hope to complete the work on the demonstrator next year. The first sample of the RD-0177 methane engine will be manufactured in 2022–2023.

Igor Arbuzov, head of NPO Energomash (https://www.roscosmos.ru/29109/)

Spoiler

Метановую тему ведет в основном КБХА, ныне — Воронежский центр ракетного двигателестроения. Работы идут уже на протяжении длительного времени и финансируются из Федеральной космической программы. Мы должны создать двигатель-демонстратор РД-0177, а впоследствии будет построен его летный вариант — РД-0169. Проведены испытания отдельных элементов агрегатов — газогенератора, смесительной головки. Теперь переходим к работам уже непосредственно по изготовлению двигателя-демонстратора РД-0177. Дальше поставлена задача: в кратчайшие сроки подтвердить возможность применения этих компонентов уже на летном варианте, это и будет РД-0169. По демонстратору работы надеемся завершить в следующем году. Первый образец метанового двигателя РД-0177 будет изготовлен в 2022–2023 годах.

 

So, as I gather, the RD-0177 is essentially the same engine as the RD-0169, just a different designation for the testbed. We know it looks like this:

index.php?action=dlattach;topic=51124.0;

Hopefully that is enough.

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16 minutes ago, Clamp-o-Tron said:

This has been surprisingly hard to find. If someone has a RussianSpaceWeb subscription they can check this out: http://www.russianspaceweb.com/protected/amur-spg.html

There are some other sources I managed to scrape together-

So, as I gather, the RD-0177 is essentially the same engine as the RD-0169, just a different designation for the testbed. We know it looks like this:

index.php?action=dlattach;topic=51124.0;

Hopefully that is enough.

That's a start. Ideally I'd have something of the back too, even  a flow diagram would be nice. 

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Really looking forward to the sick Waterfall plumes TBH

And, if all else fails, add some extending nozzle engines. I love those!

Edited by Spaceman.Spiff
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15 hours ago, Apelsin said:

I wonder if there'll be separate methalox tanks (like the current hydralox ones)

I doubt. There is a CryoTanksMethalox patch hiding somewhere (I keep forgetting but I believe it's in NFLV). Methalox is a cryofuel mix so Nertea doesn't need to make new tanks.

16 hours ago, Spaceman.Spiff said:

Something else I just thought of: A Methalox RAPIER type engine.

Restock Waterfall iirc gives the stock RAPIER purple flames. I think Methalox is already implied. You then just need to MM its fuel mix and Isp.

I will now steal and stash your suggestion for my own uses. ;) Thanks.

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20 hours ago, Nertea said:

Help is always appreciated, but isn't this actually harder at the beginning? Strings are in constant evolution  until fairly close to the release and I do typically provide a configured localization file. Maybe you can elaborate on your needs. 

sure! All I need are files. I can immediately start making localization configs. I've done enough of this stuff already, so it's okay. I don't think the names and descriptions of parts will change very often. when there are few details and they sometimes appear, it is easier and faster to translate, because a lot of information does not appear immediately

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3 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Restock Waterfall iirc gives the stock RAPIER purple flames. I think Methalox is already implied. You then just need to MM its fuel mix and Isp.

I will now steal and stash your suggestion for my own uses. ;) Thanks.

I previously asked but he said that that it didn't really add any gameplay benefits and it was annoying to use because methane isn't near the density of kerlox so a spaceplane sized tank would't work

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6 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Restock Waterfall iirc gives the stock RAPIER purple flames. I think Methalox is already implied. You then just need to MM its fuel mix and Isp.

I didn't do anything to that plume. 

3 hours ago, Kunosheru said:

sure! All I need are files. I can immediately start making localization configs. I've done enough of this stuff already, so it's okay. I don't think the names and descriptions of parts will change very often. when there are few details and they sometimes appear, it is easier and faster to translate, because a lot of information does not appear immediately

Yes, I will make the localization available on GitHub before release once I have written the English strings :). 

 

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3 hours ago, SpaceFace545 said:

I previously asked but he said that that it didn't really add any gameplay benefits and it was annoying to use because methane isn't near the density of kerlox so a spaceplane sized tank would't work

I've made liquid hydrogen fueled planes using the nuclear engines from KA and NFA and they worked, but it's definitely harder to fit enough fuel

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20 minutes ago, WarriorSabe said:

I've made liquid hydrogen fueled planes using the nuclear engines from KA and NFA and they worked, but it's definitely harder to fit enough fuel

Yep, this. It's the only practical way to make an eve SSTO using the parts for those mods, so definitely intended. Just use 3.7 and 5m tanks.

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On 1/29/2021 at 1:37 AM, Clamp-o-Tron said:

the RD-0177 is essentially the same engine as the RD-0169, just a different designation for the testbed. We know it looks like this:

That's actually the 400-kN RD0162D2A demonstrator. Presumably it features both oxidizer-rich staged combustion cycle and fuel expander cycle with two turbines on the common shaft.

Spoiler

WZ5k3rX.jpg

kAaoBOs.jpeg

MXtllgk.jpg

iUWcJ3S.jpg

There are no pictures related to the current RD0177 and RD0169A/RD0169V-1 projects yet.  There is something about previous upper stage methalox engines projects though:

Spoiler

Pa0ROC6.jpg

Parameters:

Thrust, tf

Specific impulse, kgf⋅s/kg

Height, mm

Nozzle exit diameter, mm; * - maximum overall dimension with steering chambers

Dry engine mass, kg

 

On 1/28/2021 at 9:52 PM, Nertea said:

I am looking for reasonable engines to fill 2.5m and 3.75m vacuum slots

As a last resort you can always "develop" the methane modifications of the engines running kerosene or hydrogen as it was done IRL several times for experimental and research purposes.

Edited by Sandmann.bk
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Hey Nertea

Slightly off the topic of the moment, but: I recall you (or someone somewhere) mentioning you were working on new models for Dmagic's Orbital Science Mod. Did I imagine that? Assuming I didn't, is there any danger of that project seeing the light of day this year? 

 

x

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4 hours ago, rextable said:

Hey Nertea

Slightly off the topic of the moment, but: I recall you (or someone somewhere) mentioning you were working on new models for Dmagic's Orbital Science Mod. Did I imagine that? Assuming I didn't, is there any danger of that project seeing the light of day this year? 

 

x

I want to say that was just someone speculating or wishing he would.

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