Nertea

[WIP] Nert's Dev Thread - Current: Near Future Exploration (FFT on hold)

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Hey Nertea, would you consider developing a stockalike, stand-alone (not affiliated with NFT) radiator mod, maybe with some other stuff? PM me if you're interested!

SmallFatFetus

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Would you considering adding a stack mounted heat plate? Some engines like the Nerva (and RoverDude's Karb+ Fusion Drives) don't allow direct attachment to them. Even if the stack mounted plate isn't a direct radiator it would be nice to have something that can suck the heat directly off the engine, handle the higher load, and then let it be shifted to the radial radiators attached to it. :)

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Stack mounted radiator sounds interesting. I tried Nerva on a small ship with one LF tank, inline cockpit, LF adapter and small nosecone. Six Tau radiators on LF tank delayed explosion on a bit less than a minute, and the engine blew up instead of tank.

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I'd also like to suggest a stack mounted heat sink to draw heat away from sensitive or extra hot parts that also supports radial attachment so I can stick more radiators for even more heat removal goodness.

Another thing I'd look at is the emisive curve, it might just be me and my lack of blackbody understanding but I don't think radiators glow when they're room temperature.

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So, an inline Brayton-Cycle generator with radiator mounts would be beneficial, to convert x% of heat into Ec and radiate the rest via the radiators to space.

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Presenting HeatControl: A support plugin for NF Electrical and for anyone who likes their LV-Ns with less overheating.

Contains basically the universal radiators from NF Electrical, modified to work with the stock heat system. Putting this here for testing purposes, as heat balance is really fiddly. Do please test and comment, if you're keen. It's pretty stable so far, but if you see a bug, let me know. (source on my Git page, license CC-SA-AT-NC 4)

Trying this out now Nertea, thanks.

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Presenting HeatControl: A support plugin for NF Electrical and for anyone who likes their LV-Ns with less overheating.

Contains basically the universal radiators from NF Electrical, modified to work with the stock heat system. Putting this here for testing purposes, as heat balance is really fiddly. Do please test and comment, if you're keen. It's pretty stable so far, but if you see a bug, let me know. (source on my Git page, license CC-SA-AT-NC 4)

I love all the NF mods and really looking forward to your updates so I'll happily help test this nifty little plugin.

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I'm not up to date on the heat mechanics, is it still a resource like fuel? I was thinking of making an rcs thruster that would consume heat to increase it's ISP and cool the craft a little. Maybe a small stirling generator too.

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Ehm, this is pretty weird and could be my browser acting up, but I was on KSP store front page when I saw this:

wxfudn_wot.PNG

I remember seeing those elsewhere, and in fact are one of Nert's first models (at the very beginning of this thread!), so, this beg the question, how exactly they have ended up over there?

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I'm not up to date on the heat mechanics, is it still a resource like fuel? I was thinking of making an rcs thruster that would consume heat to increase it's ISP and cool the craft a little. Maybe a small stirling generator too.

It's not a resource in that sense.

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Ehm, this is pretty weird and could be my browser acting up, but I was on KSP store front page when I saw this:

http://a.uguu.se/wxfudn_wot.PNG

I remember seeing those elsewhere, and in fact are one of Nert's first models (at the very beginning of this thread!), so, this beg the question, how exactly they have ended up over there?

I thought the same thing the first time i saw it

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Haha, no idea how that got there.

New NF Electrical test

So this test... it's getting there. Reactors are pretty solid and could use some testing. Here's the changes. It includes HeatControl, and, important point, it's totally not balanced :P. Still getting functionality working. Notes:

  • Capacitors are pretty much done. Anything unpredictable is a bug, please report
  • Nuclear fuel transfer is pretty much done too. It seems stable and I haven't found problems, but do please report
  • RTG decay is done. Install and check the extras if you're interested
  • Reactors are functional, but I'm still working on the heat dissipation. Currently it's using HeatControl, would really appreciate feedback to see if the radiators do their job correctly.

Changelog:

- Testing release! Use at own risk

- KSP 1.0 Update

- Bundled CRP

- All parts have had their attach nodes reworked with correct bulkhead sizes

- RTGs

-- New RTG decay is available as an optional patch (applies to stock RTG and ASRTG)

-- RTGs decay to 0.05% of max power (can be overridden in cfg) over a certain half life

- Capacitors

-- Removed old automation panel

-- Replaced with ship capacitor summary window

-- Fixed dischargeability when storage empty

-- Discharge can now generate heat

- Nuclear reprocessor

-- Uses stock resource converters (background processing)

-- Can now convert Ore into EnrichedUranium, at a very slow rate

- Reactors

-- Totally new system based on stock resource converters

-- Functionality similar, but no reactor window anymore

-- Uses stock heat system

- Nuclear fuel

-- New, better fuel transfer system

-- Click Transfer Fuel or Transfer waste to initiate a transfer

-- Click on a valid container to transfer to it (reprocessor, reactors, fuel containers)

-- Engineers are needed to transfer fuel, L1+. L3+ to transfer fuel

-- Transfer needs parts to be cool, on the same ship.

-- Nuclear waste generates a small amount of waste heat

Edited by Nertea

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Great!

I did some lazy tests:

MX-L and MX-2 last only a dozen of days on full power.

MX-1 heat production seems too low.

Reactors start up and shut down instantly, produce some power when offline.

I will take some to space to see how it goes.

Why do radiators use 'negative' heat generation instead of radiative and convective flux?

Edited by Psycho_zs

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So I took MX-1 with 4 GR-1 and several other parts to LKO. MX-1 currently generates 2000Kw of heat, with every radiator folded system balanced itself around 840K.

Each GR-1 in folded state 'generates' -25 heat and radiates 70 away. Other parts radiate 40-200. Reactor itself radiates 400.

Unfolded GR-1 radiates about 250 in addition to nominal 1250 'ungenerated'.

So, radiators are more effective than stated in their manifest.

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Thanks for testing!

For the moment, to simplify things reactors do start up and shutdown instantly, though they do take a while to cool down. This just simplifies some things.

Radiators use negative heat generation in addition to radiative and convective flux. The internal generation essentially provides a guaranteed amount of radiation, otherwise it gets quite hard for the end user to figure out exactly how many radiators are needed. You could get more radiation with good convective or emissive environments.

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Looking in stock config, i've found this:

heatConductivity = 0.12 is considered standard.

emissiveConstant = 0.7 probably is standard.

emissiveConstant = 0.95 is set to stock solar panels with the idea for them to be also radiators, but there is nothing too hot in stock except LV-N which is not anywhere near NFE reactors.

I've played with GR-1 config, nerfed its own heat sink to zero, but:

Assuming that dedicated radiator is an active device that pumps something through pipes, I've bumped heatConductivity to 0.9. And just out of my head bumped emissiveConstant to 4.

Now 4 GR-1 are getting into equilibrium with MX-1 (+2000) at 540K when extended, and at 690K when folded.

- - - Updated - - -

It is theoretically possible to balance things out with just emissiveConstant and write recommended numbers into descriptions.

Edited by Psycho_zs

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How about including some insulators into Heat Control?

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Not sure how feasible, I've not given it more than a passing thought, but a heat sink that can 'vent coolant' once or twice to reset its eagerness to absorb heat has been bumping around it my head. Seems interesting, and applicable to the intent of the mod, anyway.

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Looking in stock config, i've found this:

heatConductivity = 0.12 is considered standard.

emissiveConstant = 0.7 probably is standard.

emissiveConstant = 0.95 is set to stock solar panels with the idea for them to be also radiators, but there is nothing too hot in stock except LV-N which is not anywhere near NFE reactors.

I've played with GR-1 config, nerfed its own heat sink to zero, but:

Assuming that dedicated radiator is an active device that pumps something through pipes, I've bumped heatConductivity to 0.9. And just out of my head bumped emissiveConstant to 4.

Now 4 GR-1 are getting into equilibrium with MX-1 (+2000) at 540K when extended, and at 690K when folded.

- - - Updated - - -

It is theoretically possible to balance things out with just emissiveConstant and write recommended numbers into descriptions.

Indeed, that's totally an option... going to have to think about it. Might think about changing the plugin to modify conductivity and emissiveConstants when extended and retracted instead of internals.

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The thing is, radiated flux already changes when radiator is extended/retracted, gradually!

I've read somewhere on the forums that emission logic takes geometry into account, might even reabsorb. Hm, I'm going to test that...

- - - Updated - - -

Nope, no sign of reabsorbtion. But folded GR-1 radiates about 4 times less than extended.

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Indeed, but I do want to be able to adjust it ;). I imagine the folded radiator isn't pumping coolant.

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Coolant pump could be a switchable. Pumping folded radiator is better, than dead folded radiator - more conductivity. But pump would consume electricity.

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It's probably complicated but heat radiators could have some vector(s) checking whether there's other part close to radiating surface since realistically if there's more than 4 stacked inline they would probably radiate heat back to each other:

YuA3gI6.png

There's a good info about radiators on atomic engines page:

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/basicdesign.php

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Ok, new test build!

  • More parts .ddsed
  • Radiators modify EmissiveConstant when extended and retracted (no more internalFlux)
  • Increased thermal mass, conductivity of radiators
  • Reactors have lower emissivity, higher conductivity
  • Added a (dummy) insulator part for testing, if it work out well it'll get a model

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