Probes before Kerbonauts...

[icemasterpt]

this has been probably posted before, i dunno, i have been a bit away from the forum for a while but after i saw the rerun of the Livestream on the KSP-Tv , i found it a bit weird that Probes come Later than manned flight.

This is not a totally game -breaking feature, and i know that modding will be able to easly change that, but in my opinion Probes and basic rocketry should always come first, and then manned pods should be unlocked later, because its more realistic, and makes more sense.

like: Why would them send kerbals to an unstable, untested environment without knowing if they can hav a probe there?

[UbioZur]

like: Why would them send kerbals to an unstable, untested environment without knowing if they can hav a probe there?

Because it's the Kerbal way!

But more seriously, the game is about the Kerbals, and it would be sad to have to wait before we can see those Kerbal faces in the game.

It's like playing surgeon simulator (Yeah I know what a choice of a game), and starting without a actual patient to kill operate but doing it on a "fake" body.

[Skyrunner27]

On a tech standpoint probes need computers to run Kerbals can fly by hand.

On a gameplay standpoint Probes require more than Manned flight currently. They need electricity and maybe need SAS or RCS to control them.

[softweir]

What about dumb electronics: just complex enough to allow a sounding rocket to remain stable, activate an experiment at a given altitude and deploy parachutes during descent?

That would allow for non-fatal data-gathering of a crude sort, and would make progress to manned (Kerballed?) launches more natural.

[ManTrelk]

It would also mean that new players didn't rack up a hefty body count before they even got their first rocket to go 'up.' However, as UbioZur said, probes first just isn't Kerbal!

[Paul Kingtiger]

We sent probes first because it wasn't safe to send people straight away. Kerbals are not so focused on safety.

Also you could argue that the technological level of pre-Vostok probes was pretty low.

I'm more worried about not having at least one decoupler in the starting part set.

[Nobody]

What about dumb electronics: just complex enough to allow a sounding rocket to remain stable, activate an experiment at a given altitude and deploy parachutes during descent?

That would allow for non-fatal data-gathering of a crude sort, and would make progress to manned (Kerballed?) launches more natural.

That might work as a tier 0 part. Dumb probe has no controls or a locked on SAS. It just automatically takes a reading when the rocket runs out of fuel and deploys the chute.

Alternatively dumb probes could be put into staging so you can stack them on a rocket and pop their reading as it flies.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Nobody

[boomerdog2000]

This is going to be a hard thing to balance.

Not having kerbals at start takes away from the feel but is less dangerous.

Having kerbals is funny but hazardous to their health.

[lajoswinkler]

Yes, this has been discussed before and I agree with the OP in the sense that I wouldn't allow manned flights until the player manages to put a functioning piece of hardware into a stable orbit. After a probe core or anything controllable makes one turn around Kerbin and its orbital parameters don't change, full disclosure should occur. It's nothing weird and it's actually a great point in the career mode.

But "probes first" literally everywhere... that's too harsh.

[Caesar15]

"Why would them send kerbals to an unstable, untested environment without knowing if they can hav a probe there?"

Because quite frankly Kerbals are expendable, and cheaper than unmanned capsules.

[Teodzero]

We sent probes first because it wasn't safe to send people straight away. Kerbals are not so focused on safety.

I don't know about yours, but my kerbals are focused on safety. And there are a lot of people who play this game with this goal in mind.

Piling up the bodies before player can even do something basic is really bad way of introducing him to the game. There should be at least an option to have a probe on the first launch. Heck, Stayputnik is even modelled after fitst satellite. Why can't it be first here too?

[UbioZur]

By the way guys,

http://www.twitch.tv/ksptv/c/3069487

Around minutes 33. you get the official point of view from C7, yargnit, maxmaps on why it is kerbal first

[Gambi]

Because quite frankly Kerbals are expendable, and cheaper than unmanned capsules.

Tell that to the new guys who are going to kill Jebediah on their first mission.

How about a nice mandatory tutorial or even simpler, an animation showing a Kerbal doing a simple maneuver, showing the player that manned flight is possible and to unlock that you need to understand the basic mechanics of the game before putting kerbals in harm's way?

That would build player motivation to unlock manned flight and actually enjoy it.

Career mode should have a certain amount of logic and balance between realism and the "Kerbal way".

And having manned pods before probes is a kick in the face to logic.

[Alguien]

Because Squad wants to new players to meet Jeb and love him but:

Tell that to the new guys who are going to kill Jebediah on their first mission.

Is what is going to happen and honestly, is a big hole in they plans, which can be done in better ways

[Moon Goddess]

I don't know about yours, but my kerbals are focused on safety. And there are a lot of people who play this game with this goal in mind.

Piling up the bodies before player can even do something basic is really bad way of introducing him to the game. There should be at least an option to have a probe on the first launch. Heck, Stayputnik is even modelled after fitst satellite. Why can't it be first here too?

This, there are lots of us who do not play the same as C7 and Yarg, we do focus on kerbal safety.

[DMagic]

I don't know about yours, but my kerbals are focused on safety. And there are a lot of people who play this game with this goal in mind.

I think this is the real crux of the issue; that the beginnings of career mode are not designed with you, me, or anyone else on this forum in mind. They have to come up with something that new players will be able to immediately figure out and enjoy. And you always have to assume that people will skip any tutorials that you give them, so providing a only the parts necessary for a very simple manned rocket is probably the best option.

[Gambi]

And you always have to assume that people will skip any tutorials that you give them, so providing a only the parts necessary for a very simple manned rocket is probably the best option.

Why not providing them the parts necessary for a simple unmanned rocket?

It's not like building a nuclear reactor here:

SRB + probe core + battery

3 parts.

Actually, no you don't even need a battery because the probe core has a (small) battery inside.

So, 2 parts.

Opposed to :

SRB + decoupler + Manned pod + parachute

4 parts.

Why people always assume new people are retarded kids who need every step of the game simplified to the max?

This is rocket science ! There needs to be a little challenge and realism else it doesn't make any sense.

[Kommitz]

I've been thinking...

I'd personally like to see more utility for the different areas of KSC, or growth of the KSC over time.

If teaching people to build rockets is the goal of the tech tree then starting off small would seem sensible. Involving the Kerbals from the beginning not as Astronauts, but as scientists observing their first model rockets, then sounding rockets working up to manned test flights and the like.

I can understand the appeal of wanting Kerbals to be the first thing to orbit though, but getting a Kerbal to space as the initial goal doesn't have to be the only way to include them from the beginning.

Going along that train of thought seeing the likes of Jebediah, Bill and Bob work their way up from supersonic test pilot to first kerbal in orbit would be neat.

Regardless of my own idea, I'm interested to see how far career mode is taken. I don't like to speculate too much as I've been playing the game since it was in very early stages of development (and it still is, compared to most games, essentially in a pre-release state and probably not even Alpha testing levels yet). Difficult to judge where things are going with a game that's open to players so early on.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Kommitz

[boomerdog2000]

Tell that to the new guys who are going to kill Jebediah on their first mission.

How about a nice mandatory tutorial or even simpler, an animation showing a Kerbal doing a simple maneuver, showing the player that manned flight is possible and to unlock that you need to understand the basic mechanics of the game before putting kerbals in harm's way?

That would build player motivation to unlock manned flight and actually enjoy it.

Career mode should have a certain amount of logic and balance between realism and the "Kerbal way".

And having manned pods before probes is a kick in the face to logic.

You have to keep in mind that Jeb is special to us because many of us have been with him for years, we have used him for special missions.

These new players don't have that attachment to him. They may form a relationship with some completely different kerbal, and there's nothing wrong with that.

[PDCWolf]

You have to keep in mind that Jeb is special to us because many of us have been with him for years, we have used him for special missions.

These new players don't have that attachment to him. They may form a relationship with some completely different kerbal, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Then having them as orange suits means nothing, and they stop being special, which goes against the supposed mentality the devs have.

Like it has been said many times, they want the trio to be something special, yet they go on the first manned mission which will probably end in disaster for new players, that is contradicting itself.

[boomerdog2000]

They mean something to us. They mean something to others. I'm just saying they don't necessarily mean something to everyone.

Besides odds are being brand new to the game they may be saddened by any kerbal death and revert the flight until they get it right.

[astropapi1]

I totally support the probes-first idea. it'll probably be like that in the final release.

Leaving all the "kerbal way" and "moar boostarz" stuff away, I love the human part of KSP. Building sounding solid rockets before manned pods is kinda logical, isn't it?

Edited October 17, 2013 by astropapi1

[Nostromo]

I think people forget that the game's reality is altered from our own. It's not Probe Space Program with Kerbals Thrown In, it's Kerbal Space Program. In this reality, it makes sense that they'd kill Jeb first before they realize, "oh hey, we could have sent a prob ..maybe that is safer"... It's a quirky game with realism thrown in, not a NASA simulator after all.

The Kerbals themselves give the game more meaning. The first time you build your rocket, you see Jeb there on the bottom right, yelling, looking around. You'll get attached, not just to him but the game itself. It makes everything less sterile, less just about numbers, etc. I think it's one of those aspects that Squad has in mind to make sure it always comes across that this is a game.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Nostromo

[softweir]

If people want to keep the Kerbal-factor for probes, how about having a view of mission control during probe operations: instead of one or three suited Kerbals in a ship, how about three shirtsleeve Kerbals in mission control reacting to their telemetry?

I guess it would be fairly easy to implement: instead of having an internal space in the capsule have an internal space in some dislocated volume (behind the camera?) and remember to turn off camera shake and "death"!

[dlrk]

^good idea!