[0.90]Kerbal Isp Difficulty Scaler v1.4.2; 12/16/14

[falken]

Sometimes I almost get the urge to go through my parts list and reduce the dry mass of fuel tanks by hand. When a 30 ton tank's dry mass is 10%, that's pretty crazy.

[Jodo42]

I've installed KIDS along with FAR, and set my preset to "FAR to Stock". KER tells me a ship I have has 4600m/s dV, which, in stock, is barely enough for LKO. Yet the vehicle is able to make a 100km orbit with over 1100m/s left. I'm wondering whether I've not installed KIDS correctly, or if KIDS and KER aren't playing nice. Any ideas? I can provide more info (craft file, screenshots, other mods) upon request.

EDIT: Apparently this is a known issue. It's extremely frustrating, so I guess for now I'll be uninstalling this mod. A shame, but knowing accurate dV information is essential for interplanetary missions of any size.

EDIT II: Apparently I've misunderstood how this mod works. Thanks, karamazovnew.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Jodo42

[karamazovnew]

I've installed KIDS along with FAR, and set my preset to "FAR to Stock". KER tells me a ship I have has 4600m/s dV, which, in stock, is barely enough for LKO. Yet the vehicle is able to make a 100km orbit with over 1100m/s left. I'm wondering whether I've not installed KIDS correctly, or if KIDS and KER aren't playing nice. Any ideas? I can provide more info (craft file, screenshots, other mods) upon request.

EDIT: Apparently this is a known issue. It's extremely frustrating, so I guess for now I'll be uninstalling this mod. A shame, but knowing accurate dV information is essential for interplanetary missions of any size.

The dV required to reach LKO with FAR is roughly 3500. KIDS doesn't alter that, you always need 3500m/s for orbit, regardless of KIDS settings. What KIDS does alter is the size of the rocket (to put it simply) that can deliver that dV. If you switch to stock settings for KIDS (no need to remove the mod), you'll see that your 4600m/s rocket suddenly jumps in KER to 5700 (or more). That's why you had an apparent extra 1100m/s. Or make a stock (no KIDS) rocket of 4600m/s and then turn on the "FAR to Stock" setting, now KER will show you 3600 roughly. That means that a rocket that barely reached orbit in stock, now barely reaches orbit with FAR. The problem is that you now have worse performance in vacuum. See one of my previous comments on this thread, 2 pages back, to figure out what each setting does and some recommended settings for "playable career RO-like", then pick your poison.

As for interplanetary travels (and any operations on planets without atmosphere), they are only affected by the vaccum isp setting. Keep that at 1.0 and you have stock behavior in space.

Edited February 16, 2015 by karamazovnew

[Doctor Blood]

Thanks for another great mod, ferram4! I spent a few hours in a new career game trying to get into LKO with the FAR to real life settings. I finally made it with a three-stage rocket with radially attached boosters, but I had to edit the save file to upgrade the launchpad to use rockets greater than 30 tons. So, uh, good luck trying to finish a career game with this installed.

This is a much better solution for scaling difficulty than what we have in stock - docking the percentage of funds and reputation earned only makes the game more tedious. I'd love to see something like this implemented in the next release.

[Motokid600]

Im going to give KIDS another go this time around. However I am concerned about something I inquired about WAY back, but never really got a clear answer that I can remember. How does KIDS effect craft like the FASA Lunar module? If I have a FAR-Real Life setting will any purpose built lander like that now be unusable because the fuel they have no longer is enough? I understand you can just keep the vacuum isp stock, but how would that effect the atmosphere to vacuum transition? I don't want this sudden jump in efficiency like a switch.

[NathanKell]

Of course.

KIDS scales Isp. That's what it does. It does not magically detect what a craft is "supposed" to be used for and then make a special exception for it.

[Motokid600]

Of course.

KIDS scales Isp. That's what it does. It does not magically detect what a craft is "supposed" to be used for and then make a special exception for it.

I see. Ah well. I suppose I can cfg edit in the fuel if I really needed. Another possibility dumb question. Compatibility with the procedural SRB. I couldve sworn I saw a long time ago a note of this not working. Which just hit me as I realized the thrust scaling goes to max on the launchpad.

[cantab]

I understand you can just keep the vacuum isp stock, but how would that effect the atmosphere to vacuum transition? I don't want this sudden jump in efficiency like a switch.

There are no sudden jumps. The specific impulse smoothly increases from sea level to vacuum just as it does in the bone stock game.

[frencrs]

Got a minor bug, using KIDS to increase ISP by 1.64 for using stock sizes in RSS 64K without RealFuels.

Radial attached engines will have the ISP increase continuously compounded on the engine. e.g. A radial engine with 290 will be increased by 1.64 to 476 when attached, then increased by 1.24 to 591 when detached, then if the part is copied with "Mod+LeftClick" the ISP will be increased again by 1.14 to 672 and on and on...

ISP is fixed by deleting the engine and reselecting it from the part menu, so very low priority bug.

[zilfondel]

BUG Report:

I seem to have stumbled on an incompatibility between this and Procedural Parts SRBs. Specifically, when I have "Thrust varies with Isp" on, KIDS seems to override the custom thrust of a PP SRB. Turning off the thrust varying seems to fix the problem. I have screenies if that helps.

Logs: These were taken from a sandbox game in which I went back and forth from the VAB to the launchpad a bunch of times, changing settings on KCT and KIDS until I narrowed down what was causing it.

KSP.log

output_log.txt

EDIT: System specs

Windows Vista x64

KSP 0.90 x32

KIDS 1.4.2

PP 1.01 (there is a 1.02 out, but it only changes the part model according to the changelog)

+ a bunch of other mods

EDIT2: More info: Kerbal Engineer shows the correct thrust in the VAB, but incorrect on the pad with KIDS "Thrust varies with Isp" on (because KIDS "Thrust varies with Isp" doesn't take effect in the VAB). It is clear based on my small rocket shooting up to mach 4 very fast that the thrust is actually set to the 284 kN displayed on the pad by KER, and not the desired 70kN selected in the VAB.

I have found this exact issue. So... I disabled "thrust scales with ISP." The PP works now.

Edited April 3, 2015 by zilfondel

[MatterBeam]

Hi.

Does this work with non-stock engines? Can I manually designate specific engines as atm- or -vac-specific?

[theJesuit]

Not sure what I am doing wrong, but KER doesn't seem to adjust accurately. What KER shows as a 5000dV or so rocket in three stages with KIDS Stock only changes to around 1900dV when using the FAR to Stock settings. Also, the TWR readings are off. Using FAR, the I am still able to achieve orbit

How do I get KER to display accurately with KIDS?

[UnanimousCoward]

Not sure what I am doing wrong, but KER doesn't seem to adjust accurately. What KER shows as a 5000dV or so rocket in three stages with KIDS Stock only changes to around 1900dV when using the FAR to Stock settings. Also, the TWR readings are off. Using FAR, the I am still able to achieve orbit

How do I get KER to display accurately with KIDS?

What version of KER are you using? It works fine for me with FAR to Stock Universal + scaling thrust.

[theJesuit]

What version of KER are you using? It works fine for me with FAR to Stock Universal + scaling thrust.

I'm trying to utilise the FAR to Stock Atmosphere only

Yes I had a 'doh!' moment, realised I was on KER 1.0.13.1. Updated to 1.0.15.2, and the TWRs are more accurate I think (they certainly dropped and better able to see if I was going to be able to lift off), but the deltaV is still way off - 1900dV should not get me to orbit, even with FAR!

What I'm wondering is that KER isn't accounting for the scaling deltaV in the atmosphere. Turning off the atmosphere toggle in KER with the FAR to STOCK option gives the correct deltaV (same as KIDS stock option), or on using the Mun toggle in KER.

So, its more workable, but not perfect, unless I am still missing something?

Edited April 15, 2015 by theJesuit
More trials

[UnanimousCoward]

I'm trying to utilise the FAR to Stock Atmosphere only

Yes I had a 'doh!' moment, realised I was on KER 1.0.13.1. Updated to 1.0.15.2, and the TWRs are more accurate I think (they certainly dropped and better able to see if I was going to be able to lift off), but the deltaV is still way off - 1900dV should not get me to orbit, even with FAR!

What I'm wondering is that KER isn't accounting for the scaling deltaV in the atmosphere. Turning off the atmosphere toggle in KER with the FAR to STOCK option gives the correct deltaV (same as KIDS stock option), or on using the Mun toggle in KER.

So, its more workable, but not perfect, unless I am still missing something?

Forgive me if I'm on the wrong track here, but are you sure you're looking at the right one for calculating dV? When you say your craft has 1900 m/s dV, is that with the atmospheric toggle on or off? For calculating the total dV of your craft, the (higher) number with the atmospheric toggle turned off is normally the one that's used. If it says 3500 m/s there, your rocket will probably get to orbit.

Pretty much the only thing I use the atmospheric toggle for is to adjust the TWR for take off, as the thrust scaling tends to give engines lower thrust at ground level.

Again, don't mean to be patronising if you already know this - just wondering. The only other thing that I can think of is that maybe your staging isn't quite right. Say, is this one of RoverDude's sounding rockets? I noticed that KER doesn't always display the dV right for them - I think the auto-decoupling confuses it.

[theJesuit]

Forgive me if I'm on the wrong track here...

It just so happens I'm in the business of forgiveness! But, you may not be on the wrong track. KER should and does display an atmospheric adjusted deltaV when using stock or FAR, without a KIDS adjustment. In those cases KER displays a higher deltaV when 'atmospheric' isn't toggled. When it is, and I create a rocket with 3500 or 4500 for FAR or stock, I manage to get to orbit. When I use KIDS, and use the setting FAR to STOCK atmosphere with KER displaying the 'Atmospheric' adjustment KER will say that craft only has a deltaV of 1900 or so, but the non atmosphere reading is the same as without KIDS. 1900 AND it still makes orbit? I think it is KER that has the issue.

All in all, it isn't the biggest worry in the world now. 1.0 due for release in the near future and KIDS was only to look at FAR style with deltaV requirements. Thanks for your thoughts on the subject!

[taniel0401]

How well it works in 1.0.2?

[Svm420]

How well it works in 1.0.2?

It is unnecessary in 1.0 they made engines do this already. Actually that was wrong. This mod could still be used to reduce or increase ISP cross the board for resized planets or just cause. So i actually don't know if this works in 1.0 or not.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Svm420

[Hotblack Desiato]

would be interesting if it works. because frankly, in my opinion, the engines (all of them) are heavily underpowered now.

they would at least deserve a 1.2 times increase in ISP.

or is that doable with module manager?

[MatterBeam]

Will this be ready in time for KopernicusRSS release for 1.0.2?

[peadar1987]

Is this mod dead? If so, it would make me sad, it was always one of the first mods I installed on starting a new save

[MatterBeam]

Is this mod dead? If so, it would make me sad, it was always one of the first mods I installed on starting a new save

It would have been really helpful with the upcoming Real Solar System mod.

[Barking Sands]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b8izcx1m2omz1vo/RSS_Stock_ISP.rar

^^ Link to a quick "ISP difficulty scaler" mod that ISN'T the ISP Difficulty Scaler, if that makes sense. I just threw together a bunch of config data that boosts ISP to 240% of stock. The stock ISPs are included in comments if you feel a need to tweak around with the scaling. This is more ISP than you'd need for RO, but without any boost to engine thrust, you'll spend more time getting around gravity during launch to orbit and therefore will require more delta-V. This way, stock parts that used to make it to orbit still will, but stock builds that used transition burns to other bodies will now be way overpowered.

Only stock parts are included in the list, so no mods like KW Rocketry are supported. Just a cheap fix, hence the name "cheap." Also doesn't fit too well with MechJeb or KER, as the max thrust isn't calculated properly. Requires Module Manager.

For RSS now, the early alpha version is available. Instructions are here:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/55145-0-90-Real-Solar-System-v8-6-1-Mar-30/page544

(Note posts #5433 & #5435) Don't expect it to work all that well, as it is in early alpha and uses the primary components from the 0.90 version as KSP-AVC will inform you during the loading screen. Some parts of the planets seem to have glowing holes in them, and it crashes fairly frequently but is still playable using the 2048 texture version only.

[teal'c]

Is this mod dead?

I hope not

[peadar1987]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b8izcx1m2omz1vo/RSS_Stock_ISP.rar

^^ Link to a quick "ISP difficulty scaler" mod that ISN'T the ISP Difficulty Scaler, if that makes sense. I just threw together a bunch of config data that boosts ISP to 240% of stock. The stock ISPs are included in comments if you feel a need to tweak around with the scaling. This is more ISP than you'd need for RO, but without any boost to engine thrust, you'll spend more time getting around gravity during launch to orbit and therefore will require more delta-V. This way, stock parts that used to make it to orbit still will, but stock builds that used transition burns to other bodies will now be way overpowered.

Only stock parts are included in the list, so no mods like KW Rocketry are supported. Just a cheap fix, hence the name "cheap." Also doesn't fit too well with MechJeb or KER, as the max thrust isn't calculated properly. Requires Module Manager.

For RSS now, the early alpha version is available. Instructions are here:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/55145-0-90-Real-Solar-System-v8-6-1-Mar-30/page544

(Note posts #5433 & #5435) Don't expect it to work all that well, as it is in early alpha and uses the primary components from the 0.90 version as KSP-AVC will inform you during the loading screen. Some parts of the planets seem to have glowing holes in them, and it crashes fairly frequently but is still playable using the 2048 texture version only.

To be honest, I usually use KIDS the opposite way, play on stock-sized Kerbin, but with ISP turned right down so you still need a Saturn V sized rocket to get to the Mun. Thanks for the configs though, I might have a play around with them on RSS