Is it just me, or is research a bit schizophrenic?

[boolybooly]

I agree the tech tree is not sensible and it doesnt get the best out of the campaign mode because the simple stuff is in odd places. I was going to write a suggestion post about it eventually. It is characteristic of KSP development so far that content has taken second place to systems development. I understand why but as a stock player I would really like to see content coming into balance now.

IMHO aero should be much cheaper and early in the tree because Kerbin doesnt give much science but aero can help with Kerbin and nowhere much else except Laythe which needs some big science first just to get there ie aero should be balanced for the Kerbin exploration phase not Laythe. I agree temperature and barometer should be the first experiments, should be cheap and linked from aero. Goo should come later, it should also weigh less than 75% of the materials bay imho considering its size and science yield.

[Eric S]

I still say it'd be easier to design that thermometer than say, a self-loading nuclear- powered liquid-fuel-burning engine for long duration spaceflight.

True, and it is, even in career mode, the thermometer is two tiers closer to the start than the atomic engine. I don't know who started the whole "NERVA comes before ladders" thing, but it isn't that way in 0.22, and wasn't that way in any of the videos shown during the last livestream weekend.

[Moar Boosters]

Seeing as Kerbals are quite happy to dance around in the exhaust of a mainsail, reenter atmosphere without a spaceship or float around in space about a billion KM away from the sun......... I'm not really sure how aware of temperature they are. A thermometer might be pretty advanced tech for a species which doesn't seem able to detect heat themselves.

[SteevyT]

True, and it is, even in career mode, the thermometer is two tiers closer to the start than the atomic engine. I don't know who started the whole "NERVA comes before ladders" thing, but it isn't that way in 0.22, and wasn't that way in any of the videos shown during the last livestream weekend.

I currently have the thermometer unlocked, no clue where the NERVA is. Haven't seen its node.

[Donziboy2]

Before 0.22 most of my flights were probe cored.... Now I have flown 5 flights in career mode all with a Kerbal onboard. My last flight was over 1k science, I went to Minmus:)

[samstarman5]

As has been suggested before, don't assume the tech tree is going to stay as-is. It only just got introduce into the game, for crying out loud. What we are seeing now is going to nowhere near resemble the end-product, and if you apply certain thinking such as techonce's thought:

To me the fuel transfer represents advanced design methods, not necessarily a pipe. Okay it is just a pipe based on the descriptions, but using that pipe properly.

As for a thermometer... Thermocouples. they are gravity and pressure independent.

It may well be worth to think about what goes into such parts as opposed to the fuel duct being "just a tube." It isn't. Bear in mind it has to transfer both fuel and oxidizer safely from one tank to another part automatically. That doesn't just appear in a person's thought process when all they are thinking about is getting into orbit.

The tech tree isn't just about what is actually discovered but what also becomes necessary in that part of the space program, as well. Sure, you could just send a mission to the Mun at the get-go, but why? It is highly scientific not to mention necessary to know more about the immediate surroundings before leaping out of LKO. Think about it this way: There were a ton of things discovered during the Mercury and Gemini programs before Apollo could actually begin to be built, and Apollo's missions contributed a lot to the space shuttle program becoming a reality. It would be well worth it to read up on them.

KSP is about discovery. Career mode is reminding us of that big time, as we have obviously been getting very spoiled by sandbox mode and having all the parts at once. It is time to think outside the sandbox and start thinking about what the experience of truly starting your own space program involves. If that involves not being able to have external fuel tanks for your rocket right away, then congratulations, you just experienced the '50's and '60's US space program which also did not employ such things short of what the launch towers had.

It is high time we got out of the sandbox and played with the big boys. Space is waiting.

Edited October 17, 2013 by samstarman5

[Spatzimaus]

It IS a bit... off. Jet engines and wings come long after manned rockets? Struts, ladders, and launch clamps are halfway down the tree as well? Landing legs a few techs down, so that your first few rockets are sitting on their engines on the launch pad? And don't forget solar panels or lights; unless you're really careful to pick up all of the science points possible on Kerbin (like the per-biome goo and EVA points), your first Mun flyby will be done without any way to passively generate power.

It's still possible to advance under these limitations, of course. My first rocket made it out of the atmosphere, albeit without nearly enough delta-v to get a stable orbit. A dozen flights later, I was doing a Mun flyby, and the following mission landed successfully. The science points from doing that were enough to buy three or four new technologies, and now I've got enough parts to reach Duna tonight. But it's still very strange; I didn't have any ladders on my Mun lander, because I couldn't afford the science points for them.

Right now, the tech tree is basically a tutorial. You'll get through it in a couple days and then never worry about it again, but in the meantime you'll have learned how to build ships more efficiently instead of just stacking MOAR BOOSTERS!!! on everything. (It's one of the reasons I always liked spaceplane design; bigger is not better there.) It's just that the current placement is at odds with that principle, because it takes too long to get to some very fundamental components.

[Plur303]

Anybody who thinks fuel lines are just tubes and a basic technology doesn't know anything about rockets. Rocket fuel pumps are incredibly complex and take hundreds it not thousands of horsepower to operate. The Bloodhound SSC landspeed record car is going to have a Cosworth F1 race car engine that does nothing but drive the fuel pump for the liquid fuel rocket. That's how much fuel needs to be moved. And this is just a small rocket that isn't even trying to make orbit.

This is why asparagus staging is not utilized in real life.

Here is a quote from the wikipedia page about the engines and fuel pumps on the Saturn V rockets.

"A gas-generator was used to drive a turbine which in turn drove separate fuel and oxygen pumps, each feeding the thrust chamber assembly. The turbine was driven at 5,500 RPM by the gas generator, producing 41 megawatts (55,000 bhp). The fuel pump produced 58,560 litres (15,471 US gal) of RP-1 per minute while the oxidizer pump delivered 93,920 litres; 20,659 imperial gallons (24,811 US gal) of liquid oxygen per minute."

55,000 horsepower to pump the fuel for the first stage on the Saturn V.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocketdyne_F-1

Thinking rocket fuel lines are just tubes...

[samstarman5]

It IS a bit... off. Jet engines and wings come long after manned rockets? Struts, ladders, and launch clamps are halfway down the tree as well? Landing legs a few techs down, so that your first few rockets are sitting on their engines on the launch pad? And don't forget solar panels or lights; unless you're really careful to pick up all of the science points possible on Kerbin (like the per-biome goo and EVA points), your first Mun flyby will be done without any way to passively generate power.

It's still possible to advance under these limitations, of course. My first rocket made it out of the atmosphere, albeit without nearly enough delta-v to get a stable orbit. A dozen flights later, I was doing a Mun flyby, and the following mission landed successfully. The science points from doing that were enough to buy three or four new technologies, and now I've got enough parts to reach Duna tonight. But it's still very strange; I didn't have any ladders on my Mun lander, because I couldn't afford the science points for them.

Right now, the tech tree is basically a tutorial. You'll get through it in a couple days and then never worry about it again, but in the meantime you'll have learned how to build ships more efficiently instead of just stacking MOAR BOOSTERS!!! on everything. (It's one of the reasons I always liked spaceplane design; bigger is not better there.) It's just that the current placement is at odds with that principle, because it takes too long to get to some very fundamental components.

Jet engines being down the line do seem a bit silly, but try to think about it this way: In the early parts of a space program, who conceives the thought of jet-assisted propulsion for a spacecraft? Sure, maybe it is thought of in books and on blueprints, but it isn't going to be realized as a real tool until, for example, the thought that maybe it would make certain launches more affordable. Bear in mind that we have yet to experience the fun of budgeting a space program. Right now, the parts you discover are all free. But it isn't going to be long before we have to start thinking about our space program's wallet. And not having jet engines at the start is most likely a big part of that. Something also to think of for why other parts might also lie where they are on the tree.

[Tassyr]

Anybody who thinks fuel lines are just tubes and a basic technology doesn't know anything about rockets. Rocket fuel pumps are incredibly complex and take hundreds it not thousands of horsepower to operate. The Bloodhound SSC landspeed record car is going to have a Cosworth F1 race car engine that does nothing but drive the fuel pump for the liquid fuel rocket. That's how much fuel needs to be moved. And this is just a small rocket that isn't even trying to make orbit.

This is why asparagus staging is not utilized in real life.

Here is a quote from the wikipedia page about the engines and fuel pumps on the Saturn V rockets.

"A gas-generator was used to drive a turbine which in turn drove separate fuel and oxygen pumps, each feeding the thrust chamber assembly. The turbine was driven at 5,500 RPM by the gas generator, producing 41 megawatts (55,000 bhp). The fuel pump produced 58,560 litres (15,471 US gal) of RP-1 per minute while the oxidizer pump delivered 93,920 litres; 20,659 imperial gallons (24,811 US gal) of liquid oxygen per minute."

55,000 horsepower to pump the fuel for the first stage on the Saturn V.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocketdyne_F-1

Thinking rocket fuel lines are just tubes...

Aright, I already apologized for this! XD Though I assumed the pump was included in the tank, similar to the ones that feed the engines, but.

[spudcosmic]

Even rocket science in real life has yet to maser fuel crossfeed.

[paleorob]

producing 41 megawatts (55,000 bhp)

Another way of looking at this - 41 megawatts is about 2/3 of one generator at Hoover Dam.

[Hodo]

I am confused as to why one would build a mun rocket before a plane?

If I recall the Rocket came before the plane, but the plane lead the way to space with the Bell X-1 and going past the speed of sound. That sounds like a good start...

-build a plane

-break the sound barrier

-build a rocket

-Put a satellite into orbit

-Put a Kerbal into orbit

-Perform an EVA

-Perform an in space docking

-Go to the Mun

-Land on the Mun

-Go to Minimus

-Land on Minimus

and so on.

Not...

Build a rocket, go to the Mun, and Minimus then build a plane.

[Spatzimaus]

Jet engines being down the line do seem a bit silly, but try to think about it this way: In the early parts of a space program, who conceives the thought of jet-assisted propulsion for a spacecraft?

Two things:

1> The planes we make in KSP don't have to go to orbit. You can make a plane that just flies around the planet for a while. Did we have to wait until after the Apollo program landed on the moon before we could afford that?

2> Kerbin isn't Earth. Due to the 10:1 scaling issue, it's much, much easier for a jet to get to orbit on Kerbin than it ever could on Earth. Mach 3 for a plane is perfectly reasonable, but on Earth you'd need to get to Mach 25ish for an orbit, so jets can only get you a tiny fraction of the way. But on Kerbin, a low orbit might only be maybe Mach 6, so jets can do most of the work. That's why spaceplanes are so much fun in this game.

Given those two factors, it's just not reasonable that jets are as far down the line as they are. On Kerbin, with the physical characteristics they've given the planet, spaceplanes should be MORE viable than they are in our world, not less.

Bear in mind that we have yet to experience the fun of budgeting a space program. Right now, the parts you discover are all free. But it isn't going to be long before we have to start thinking about our space program's wallet.

Maybe, maybe not. We've never been given the details on exactly how the economy will work in KSP. It MIGHT be a pure pay-as-you-go system, where you pay for all of the parts used in each ship, but I seriously doubt they'll go that route because it discourages experimentation. (Also, this sort of system would FAVOR jets, not discourage them, because reusable designs would be much better than disposable one-shots.)

Instead, I'm betting we'll get a "cap" system; that is, no individual parts more expensive than X and no ships with total cost more than Y. As you accomplish various tasks and benchmarks, X and Y increase. This also helps avoid one of the major problems with the current tech tree system: unneeded complexity. Right now, I can just stack a bunch of small fuel tanks, instead of unlocking the tech that gives me a larger tank. There's no real downside to doing so, other than aesthetics. But if that larger tank has twice the capacity and only 1.5x the cost, then it'd give me a tangible reason to prefer it over the lower-tech workaround without changing my actual performance; I'd need X to be high enough to afford the better part, but it'd actually save me money on Y that I could use for other parts.

Either way, it doesn't explain why inexpensive parts like struts are further down the tree than rocket engines. I mean, you can see the costs on the parts right now; it's not just expensive stuff out at the later techs, there are plenty of cheap parts way out there as well for thematic reasons.

[Frostiken]

So... it's a glorified tutorial? That... that really doesn't feel right...

Yeah, I mentioned it on Reddit. There's basically going to be three aspects of career: Economics (money and resources), tech (science), and missions (things to do).

Dedicating 1/3rd of that to a tutorial that 98% of KSP's players don't need (since I imagine 98% of players have been playing since long before 0.22) is just a waste.

Science needs to be more advanced and deep. Probes should be relaying data to orbital science centers which have dedicated labs and need to be stocked with smart Kerbals. It would actually give space stations a purpose besides glorified gas stations.

[Moar Boosters]

Are you guys not familiar with the legend of Wan Hu?

He was the first human to attempt a space program, and he did it by strapping rockets to his chair and hoping for the best. Aeroplanes came several hundred years later. I am unsure whether he took mysterious goo with him, or whether the goo survived the journey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wan_Hu

[Cmmndrme]

Dedicating 1/3rd of that to a tutorial that 98% of KSP's players don't need (since I imagine 98% of players have been playing since long before 0.22) is just a waste.

Science needs to be more advanced and deep. Probes should be relaying data to orbital science centers which have dedicated labs and need to be stocked with smart Kerbals. It would actually give space stations a purpose besides glorified gas stations.

Remember that this is the first update involving science. And given the science bay is Jr you can assume there is more on the way. There is a tag on the start save screen that states this is still in development. so calm down, what you want will get there eventually. I personally think this is a great start and Squad are doing a great job.

Squad made it so things could be modded easily, so while the games still in development why don't you mod it to make it how you want it instead of complaining they haven't made it how you want it. Plenty of people are loving it as is.

[Skankk]

I think you have to think about it as a game, and a different civilization. Kerbals aren't humans, surely they would invent things in a different order.

[drinniol]

Are you guys not familiar with the legend of Wan Hu?

No, I'm not, Hu are you talking about?

(Sorry )

[Ession]

There definitely needs to be some reshuffleing in the future. I am pretty sure I had unlocked RCS tanks at one point without having access to an RCS engine.

[techonce]

While not probable, it is possible for a civ to develop a rocket before developing a plane.

Also this is a work in progress. To me it looks like squad created a basic framework to encourage us to work through career mode. It's going to go through changes. They did some testing on their own, but we get to play it enough to work on balance. Firaxis does the same thing with Civilization. They created it and got it fairly balanced. Then 6 months later they have a patch that has a whole bunch of balancing in it. Based on feed back.

[lammatt]

furl duct IS hard if you understand anything about fluid dynamics

[GraviTykillz]

The Wheel? lolz is after a jet engine on tree?

i was a little bit suprised to find ladders so far up the tree. but besides that i think that the RD building ..runway..rocket pad..all should start out as maybe just a place on a field. and then maybe a runway, then a hanger..ect. seems kinda funny to have that HUGE RD building ..and not to have invented ladders

All in All I do like the tech tree and it will make for fun challanges.

Edited October 18, 2013 by GraviTykillz

[DrStrangeLug]

I've raised an eyebrow a couple of times but so far it's only niggles. By biggest surprise was that you had to launch a crewed capsule to unlock a probe core. I would have moved the Stayputnik Mk. 1 to stage one and make sure it had enough power to transmit once, and put the command pod and parachute in stage two.

[magnemoe]

To me the fuel transfer represents advanced design methods, not necessirily a pipe. Okay it is just a pipe based on the desciptions, but using that pipe properly.

As for a thermometer... Thermocouples. they are gravity and pressure indepentant.

Fuel pipes enables asparagus staging and drop tanks. Also more advanced designs as putting four tanks around the material lab and putting the engine under the lab, you now have an much wider lander.

The small strut is one of the most powerful part in the game. it let you do engine clustering in addition to putting anything radial, they are pretty much essential for making lightweight items.