Starwaster

[1.6.1] Deadly Reentry v7.7.2, May somethingth, 2019 (The Rachel Edition)

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18 hours ago, Jognt said:

Yes. Both AMD and nVidia have built-in screen recording tools. Unless you're using integrated/old graphics.
For nVidia it's "Shadowplay" or I think they call it "Share" now.. For AMD it's ReLive.

Both of those are hardware based and won't affect your framerate (much?). You can also look at Fraps or Bandicam for software based recording, though they have a watermark on the video for the free versions.

If it's too much trouble then I'm fine with you not making a video though. I'm just interested, so don't jump hoops trying to get that done.

Unfortunately, Shadowplay only works if I also install the Virus/Bloatware/PUP they call "Nvidia Experience".  So that's a no go.

Fraps has way too much of a performance hit, and I'm guessing Bandicam wouldn't be much better.

 

...  if you have Discord, I could stream to you with that?  I occasionally show ship designs to my brother this way.

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5 hours ago, Atlessa said:

Unfortunately, Shadowplay only works if I also install the Virus/Bloatware/PUP they call "Nvidia Experience".  So that's a no go.

Fraps has way too much of a performance hit, and I'm guessing Bandicam wouldn't be much better.

 

...  if you have Discord, I could stream to you with that?  I occasionally show ship designs to my brother this way.

I use the GPU hardware h264 encoder (the shadowplay one) with Bandicam. Not sure if you can do that with the free version though.

I do have discord so that's fine by me too.

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 @Starwaster 

After some more testing, with Jognt watching, I've come to the conclusion that something is probably not working as intended. Even at 150% I could 'bellyflop' into Kerbin's atmosphere from 170 x -150km orbit. At 100%, things are effectively easier than stock. 

 

Also, I have 2 DRE icons on my toolbar.  In case that tells you anything? I didn't think too much of it seeing how it was a 'hackjob' feature and since the slider seemed to work, but Jognt said I should mention it for debugging.

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Posted (edited)

Can confirm. 

I did a similar reentry in stock with 120% gearing (350 ap, -150 Pe). 

We both saw temp gauges, my plane lost its RCS to heating, Atlessa’s lost a canard and an intake (at ~150% mind you)

both test were at 5-12° AoA  

both DR icons had their own heat slider % by the way. And both were at 150 during the test. 

Not scientific by any means, but it didn’t look harder than stock :/ 

Edited by Jognt

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Sorry if this has already been asked but I couldn't find the answer.

What is the deal with the kerbal and part gforce limit sliders and the on/off toggle in the difficulty settimgs? 

Does DRE use these settings or does it implement its own settings and ignore these? Or do I need to turn them off to get the full DRE experience?

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On 7/12/2019 at 5:17 PM, Spagoose said:

Sorry if this has already been asked but I couldn't find the answer.

What is the deal with the kerbal and part gforce limit sliders and the on/off toggle in the difficulty settimgs? 

Does DRE use these settings or does it implement its own settings and ignore these? Or do I need to turn them off to get the full DRE experience?

Deadly Reentry does not use or interact with stock's G force or pressure system

Deadly Reentry has its own handler for gforce damage. I'd leave the stock one turned off.... OR.... if for some reason you think you'd prefer the stock one or you'd like to TRY the stock one then you should disable the Deadly Reentry one in its menu. (click the little capsule on the stock toolbar) and set G Tolerance Mult to 0 (default is 6)

The stock Kerbal G force one you can enable as you please without needing to do anything with DRE's one. The stock one only controls Kerbal unconsciousness (GLOC) whereas the DRE one can actually kill them. I consider the two to complement each other nicely.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Starwaster said:

Deadly Reentry does not use or interact with stock's G force or pressure system

Deadly Reentry has its own handler for gforce damage. I'd leave the stock one turned off.... OR.... if for some reason you think you'd prefer the stock one or you'd like to TRY the stock one then you should disable the Deadly Reentry one in its menu. (click the little capsule on the stock toolbar) and set G Tolerance Mult to 0 (default is 6)

The stock Kerbal G force one you can enable as you please without needing to do anything with DRE's one. The stock one only controls Kerbal unconsciousness (GLOC) whereas the DRE one can actually kill them. I consider the two to complement each other nicely.

Could you elaborate* on how the DRE implementation differs from Stock? It's hard to decide which one to prefer when I don't really know how either of them work. Or is the "Kerbals can die" thing the only difference? (in which case, when do they die?)

Also, initially you recommend to turn off the stock one, but later you say they complement eachother nicely, which implies them being active side-by-side. Any clarification on that'd be appreciated. o7

* - technical speak appreciated (to help shape the mental image)

Edited by Jognt

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jognt said:

Could you elaborate* on how the DRE implementation differs from Stock? It's hard to decide which one to prefer when I don't really know how either of them work. Or is the "Kerbals can die" thing the only difference? (in which case, when do they die?)

Also, initially you recommend to turn off the stock one, but later you say they complement eachother nicely, which implies them being active side-by-side. Any clarification on that'd be appreciated. o7

* - technical speak appreciated (to help shape the mental image)

I say not to use both stock and DRE for part g force damage because they both have the same the same goal: destroy the part.

Implementation  of g forces on Kerbals inside a part differ between DRE and stock. Stock will cause gforce induced loss of consciousness (GLOC) Kerbals and DRE will kill them. 

In the case of parts, DRE gforce damage depends both on intensity and duration and does cumulative damage which can be seen and repaired by engineers on EVA. 

Kerbals in parts have gforce effects treated differently where there is a threshold of 6gs and it is tracked cumulatively for as long as the threshold is exceeded. The intensity is exponential with relation to gforce. When the accumulated gforce reaches a certain point there is a chance one Kerbal will die every physics frame. If gforce drops below  the threshold the counter is reset. It is tracked per vessel part. 

The accumulated value (needed to kill) is much lower in stock than IRL because Kerbals are usually subject to it for much shorter periods of time. IRL people have been subjected to 40g’s for short periods of time and hundreds of g’s for brief periods of time such as in car crashes. How much a person could really take is highly subjective and hard to quantify. In RO/RSS and other scaled up environments I set it up so that 9 g’s can kill you but it has to be REALLY sustained for a long period of time. 40 g’s are survivable for a less of a period if it’s not too long. 

Edited by Starwaster

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17 minutes ago, Starwaster said:

I say not to use both stock and DRE for part g force damage because they both have the same the same goal: destroy the part.

Implementation  of g forces on Kerbals inside a part differ between DRE and stock. Stock will cause gforce induced loss of consciousness (GLOC) Kerbals and DRE will kill them. 

In the case of parts, DRE gforce damage depends both on intensity and duration and does cumulative damage which can be seen and repaired by engineers on EVA. 

Kerbals in parts have gforce effects treated differently where there is a threshold of 6gs and it is tracked cumulatively for as long as the threshold is exceeded. The intensity is exponential with relation to gforce. When the accumulated gforce reaches a certain point there is a chance one Kerbal will die every physics frame. If gforce drops below  the threshold the counter is reset. It is tracked per vessel part. 

The accumulated value (needed to kill) is much lower in stock than IRL because Kerbals are usually subject to it for much shorter periods of time. IRL people have been subjected to 40g’s for short periods of time and hundreds of g’s for brief periods of time such as in car crashes. How much a person could really take is highly subjective and hard to quantify. In RO/RSS and other scaled up environments I set it up so that 9 g’s can kill you but it has to be REALLY sustained for a long period of time. 40 g’s are survivable for a less of a period if it’s not too long. 

Thank you for the explanation. Also my apology for missing the distinction between part g-limits and kerbal g-limits.

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I just installed Deadly Reentry for the first time, as well as JNSQ, FAR and Kerbalism, to have an experience somewhere in between stock and RO.

I think the question is in the FAQ, but I still don't get it: I'm trying to reenter with a simple pod consisting of a Probodobodyne OKTO, some batteries/sensors/antennas/solar panels, and a heat shield. High up in the atmosphere, solar panels show the heat gauge sometimes when they're not perfectly behind the heat shield, but it disappears again after the vessel has a perfect retrograde orientation again. But then, suddenly, after entering thicker parts of the atmosphere, the vessel just explodes - the OKTO overheated without ever showing the gauge. Why, and what can I do?

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46 minutes ago, infinite_monkey said:

I just installed Deadly Reentry for the first time, as well as JNSQ, FAR and Kerbalism, to have an experience somewhere in between stock and RO.

I think the question is in the FAQ, but I still don't get it: I'm trying to reenter with a simple pod consisting of a Probodobodyne OKTO, some batteries/sensors/antennas/solar panels, and a heat shield. High up in the atmosphere, solar panels show the heat gauge sometimes when they're not perfectly behind the heat shield, but it disappears again after the vessel has a perfect retrograde orientation again. But then, suddenly, after entering thicker parts of the atmosphere, the vessel just explodes - the OKTO overheated without ever showing the gauge. Why, and what can I do?

How big is the shield? It has to be bigger than the probe itself. And with stock heating you can probably get away without a fairing as long as the shield is bigger than the probe but sometimes that isn't the case with FAR. Which frankly is more realistic. In real life, the shockwave is still pretty hot after it passes the capsule. The backside of the capsule is still between 4200-8200K 

And you might want to adjust your reentry angle. If the probe is ok higher up then give it a shallower reentry so it has time to slow down before descending deeper into the thicker parts of the atmosphere. Greater atmospheric density means it can transfer more heat into your fragile little spacecraft.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, infinite_monkey said:

I just installed Deadly Reentry for the first time, as well as JNSQ, FAR and Kerbalism, to have an experience somewhere in between stock and RO.

I think the question is in the FAQ, but I still don't get it: I'm trying to reenter with a simple pod consisting of a Probodobodyne OKTO, some batteries/sensors/antennas/solar panels, and a heat shield. High up in the atmosphere, solar panels show the heat gauge sometimes when they're not perfectly behind the heat shield, but it disappears again after the vessel has a perfect retrograde orientation again. But then, suddenly, after entering thicker parts of the atmosphere, the vessel just explodes - the OKTO overheated without ever showing the gauge. Why, and what can I do?

 

Where were you reentering from? Bob died yesterday in my JNSQ game without DRE during reentry from the Mun. 

If it’s from LKO then it’s probably what Starwaster said. If it was from the Mun, welcome to JNSQ :cool:

Edited by Jognt

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5 hours ago, Jognt said:

Where were you reentering from? Bob died yesterday in my JNSQ game without DRE during reentry from the Mun. 

If it’s from LKO then it’s probably what Starwaster said. If it was from the Mun, welcome to JNSQ :cool:

LKO. Problem is, I'm in career mode and also use Zee's Probe Before Crew mod. In combination with Kerbalism, it's darn hard to get any serious science and make some progress :D I'll try a shallower angle... But why is there no gauge warning me of the rising temperature?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, infinite_monkey said:

LKO. Problem is, I'm in career mode and also use Zee's Probe Before Crew mod. In combination with Kerbalism, it's darn hard to get any serious science and make some progress :D I'll try a shallower angle... But why is there no gauge warning me of the rising temperature?

Maybe just “too much heat, too fast”.

I feel your pain by the way as I also had a rough start with PBC on JNSQ. Good luck ;) 

Edited by Jognt

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5 hours ago, infinite_monkey said:

LKO. Problem is, I'm in career mode and also use Zee's Probe Before Crew mod. In combination with Kerbalism, it's darn hard to get any serious science and make some progress :D I'll try a shallower angle... But why is there no gauge warning me of the rising temperature?

Don't know, not enough information to say. Might have just overheated too quickly. Did you see any flames before it happened? Did the part catch fire at all?

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I didn't notice any flames. But following your advice, it worked now: I managed to get enough science so I could get the bigger (1.25 m instead of 0.6) heat shield. I also raised my periapsis to 50 km vs. 40 before, but I don't think that made much of a difference. I guess it was just the heat shield... This makes me think of a custom TechTree/Contracts config, since the current one doesn't make much sense for my mod combo

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How do I make the script recognize a part as a 'spaceplane' parts?  I have some Mk2 profile parts from other mods that burn like paper on reentry.
Also, for myself, I'd like to use 1.25m tanks on my SSTOs, so I would add them as well, once I know how.

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53 minutes ago, Atlessa said:

How do I make the script recognize a part as a 'spaceplane' parts?  I have some Mk2 profile parts from other mods that burn like paper on reentry.
Also, for myself, I'd like to use 1.25m tanks on my SSTOs, so I would add them as well, once I know how.

You have two ways of doing it.

For the actual mk2 parts I would patch the actual part with the appropriate values (this is what I use for the mk2 cockpit

@PART[mk2Cockpit_Standard]
{
	@maxTemp = 850
	@emissiveConstant = 0.85
	@thermalMassModifier = 1 // if thermalMassModifier ever changes then skinThermalMassModifier must be multiplied by the same value
	%skinMaxTemp = 2706
	%skinThermalMassModifier = 0.436
	%skinInternalConductionMult = 0.0000105
	%skinMassPerArea = 0.815
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleAeroReentry
		leaveTemp = True
	}
}

For the tanks you could do the same but what I would do instead is leave their inital properties as is and instead use the upgrade system as follows

MODULE
{
	name = PartStatsUpgradeModule
	showUpgradesInModuleInfo = true
	UPGRADES
	{
		UPGRADE 
		{
			name__ = Spaceplane.Ceramic.TPS
			description__ = This part can withstand shallow reentries now.
			IsAdditiveUpgrade__ = true				
			PartStats
			{					
				cost = 1000
				mass = -0.1
				maxTemp = 850
				emissiveConstant = 0.85
				thermalMassModifier = 1
				skinMaxTemp = 2706
				skinThermalMassModifier = 0.436
				skinInternalConductionMult = 0.0000105
				skinMassPerArea = 0.815
			}
		}	
	}
}		

MODULE
{
	name = ModuleAeroReentry
	leaveTemp = True
	maxOperationalTemp = 450 // this value should be replaced with the 1.25m initial values
	skinMaxOperationalTemp = 450 // this value should be replaced with the 1.25m initial value
	UPGRADES
	{
		UPGRADE
		{
			name__ = Spaceplane.Ceramic.TPS
			description__ = This part can withstand shallow reentries now.
			IsAdditiveUpgrade__ = true
			skinMaxOperationalTemp = 2706
		}
	}
}

 

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I understand the first part (just need to figure out the names of the parts and what values to give them), but where do I put the update patch... and how do I buy it in game?

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39 minutes ago, Atlessa said:

I understand the first part (just need to figure out the names of the parts and what values to give them), but where do I put the update patch... and how do I buy it in game?

The tank part gets patched with the upgrade patch in the second part. You research the update in the R&D (or if it's in Sandbox and you have the option selected to automatically apply all updates)

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Okay, but where does the code go?  Is it a seperate patch that comes after a @PART[name of the tank] or does it go straight into the tank's  .cfg?

 

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41 minutes ago, Atlessa said:

Okay, but where does the code go?  Is it a seperate patch that comes after a @PART[name of the tank] or does it go straight into the tank's  .cfg?

 

I will never EVER tell anyone to directly edit a part's cfg file.

You create a cfg file somewhere in your GameData folder or one of its subfolders. Edit the cfg file and paste the following into it. Replace YOUR-PART-NAME-HERE with the name of the part. If you want to do that to more than one part then separate the part names with a |

i.e. @PART[part1|part2] 

@PART[YOUR-PART-NAME-HERE]
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = PartStatsUpgradeModule
		showUpgradesInModuleInfo = true
		UPGRADES
		{
			UPGRADE 
			{
				name__ = Spaceplane.Ceramic.TPS
				description__ = This part can withstand shallow reentries now.
				IsAdditiveUpgrade__ = true				
				PartStats
				{					
					cost = 1000
					mass = -0.1
					maxTemp = 850
					emissiveConstant = 0.85
					thermalMassModifier = 1
					skinMaxTemp = 2706
					skinThermalMassModifier = 0.436
					skinInternalConductionMult = 0.0000105
					skinMassPerArea = 0.815
				}
			}	
		}
	}		

	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleAeroReentry
		leaveTemp = True
		maxOperationalTemp = 450 // this value should be replaced with the 1.25m initial values
		skinMaxOperationalTemp = 450 // this value should be replaced with the 1.25m initial value
		UPGRADES
		{
			UPGRADE
			{
				name__ = Spaceplane.Ceramic.TPS
				description__ = This part can withstand shallow reentries now.
				IsAdditiveUpgrade__ = true
				skinMaxOperationalTemp = 2706
			}
		}
	}
}

 

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3 hours ago, Atlessa said:

Okay, but where does the code go?  Is it a seperate patch that comes after a @PART[name of the tank] or does it go straight into the tank's  .cfg?

ModuleManager patches can go anywhere in the GameData folder. I recommend keeping patches you add yourself in a personal folder in GameData though as it makes it a lot easier to manage your personal tweaks and copy them over to a new KSP install.

The name for the directory doesn't really matter, whatever floats your boat, as long as it isn't the name of an actually existing mod. (So don't go naming your personal patches folder "SCANsat" unless you're really curious about the effects)

The patches themselves can also have any name you want, as long as the extension (what the name ends with) is ".cfg". So again pick a name that'll help you identify your own patches :)

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Ok, I did everything as described, and the game seems to apply the patch as intended, but for some odd reason the 1.25m tanks still blow up WAY faster than the Mk2 ones. (though nowhere near as fast as before)

Any ideas why that might be?

 

... considering how easy things felt to me since installing DRE, I'm almost inclined to think that the 1.25m tanks are exactly where they should be, but the Mk2 parts are much more durable than intended.

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14 minutes ago, Atlessa said:

Ok, I did everything as described, and the game seems to apply the patch as intended, but for some odd reason the 1.25m tanks still blow up WAY faster than the Mk2 ones. (though nowhere near as fast as before)

Any ideas why that might be?

 

... considering how easy things felt to me since installing DRE, I'm almost inclined to think that the 1.25m tanks are exactly where they should be, but the Mk2 parts are much more durable than intended.

If it's sandbox mode make sure you have the option turned on to apply all upgrades. And if it's career mode make sure you've researched the the upgrade

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