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[1.6.1] Deadly Reentry v7.7.2, May somethingth, 2019 (The Rachel Edition)

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Synthesis, put the whole log on dropbox or pastebin or something; I need to see the part where all the parts are loading, and it's Looooong....

jpinard, I know about the bug. It happens when DRE destroys your last part. As I've said, you can avoid it if you can get back to the VAB and launch again. Which you can do if you revert to VAB and launch again, then revert again.

I'm not sure why that happens; I know it occurs in stock KSP, as others have said when you last brought it up. There's nothing DRE does hackishly about that; it just tells parts to explode using stock functionality. So I'm not sure there's anything I can do. I will look at it though, but I make no promises :(

V2 uploading now, adds the G effects, the tech nodes (thanks Specialist 290), and the added delay on prelaunch.

So we can't really use DR with MCE then? Reverting your flights and all.

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While 800 m/s may be pushing it a bit, since Kerbal rockets can be more durable compared to RL ones in my experience it seems like it should be a possible velocity. :/

Should be? of course it is, The real life X-15 flew at 2000 m/s at an altitude of 19km, and it had no special heat shielding. . At 19km with the current DRE and Nathan's recommendation of 1.17 My rockets are burning up at 1,200 m/s. So obviously something isnt right.

Ive been testing around with it. And ive found the most realistic value compared to speeds/altitude combinations survived by real life rockets and space planes, I think setting shockwave exponent at 0.9 gives seemingly realistic results.

But im sure The reason is because we havent set the other values to compensate for earth size kerbin.

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Should be? of course it is, The real life X-15 flew at 2000 m/s at an altitude of 19km, and it had no special heat shielding. . At 19km with the current DRE and Nathan's recommendation of 1.17 My rockets are burning up at 1,200 m/s. So obviously something isnt right.

Ive been testing around with it. And ive found the most realistic value compared to speeds/altitude combinations survived by real life rockets and space planes, I think setting shockwave exponent at 0.9 gives seemingly realistic results.

But im sure The reason is because we havent set the other values to compensate for earth size kerbin.

Ah. Never did much research about the X-15s so I didn't know that.

I'll try experimenting with the various values then. See what makes things work with the given 1.17 exponent without everything exploding.

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Ah. Never did much research about the X-15s so I didn't know that.

I'll try experimenting with the various values then. See what makes things work with the given 1.17 exponent without everything exploding.

Great, please do report back on your findings. I have to sleep but I will try tomorrow as well.

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Nonono, the new shockwave exponent and multiplier are if you want realistic heat on STOCK Kerbin, as FlowerChild and others were asking for. If you try to up it on rescaled Kerbin, you'll definitely burn up! Sorry that wasn't clearer.

Here are the config options, basically:

1. Playing on Stock Kerbin, want traditional DRE functionality: don't change anything

2. Playing on Stock Kerbin, want realisitc levels of heat on reentry (i.e. faking an 8km/sec reentry): set the shockwave exponent and multiplier to taste; I suggest exponent 1.17 to start. You will likely have to increase the dissipation rates of heat shields (in the heatshield part.cfgs and in DeadlyReentry.cfg). For good values, you can check what I did for the Gemini heat shield in the Realscale Gemini I posted on the FASA thread.

3. Playing on Real-scale Kerbin, want traditional DRE functionality: set _heat_ multiplier to 12 or so.

4. Playing on Real-scale Kerbin, want realistic heating. Change nothing in DRE settings. However, as in 2, you will likely need to edit heat shields.

Edited by NathanKell

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Heh, thanks for clearing that up, thought something was off when the given temperature exponent was resulting in shockwaves as hot as 30000 C.

Now, while I think I can work out ablative shielding from your Gemini .cfg, will the non-ablative shielding need tweaks as well?

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2. Playing on Stock Kerbin, want realisitc levels of heat on reentry (i.e. faking an 8km/sec reentry): set the shockwave exponent and multiplier to taste; I suggest exponent 1.17 to start. You will likely have to increase the dissipation rates of heat shields (in the heatshield part.cfgs and in DeadlyReentry.cfg). For good values, you can check what I did for the Gemini heat shield in the Realscale Gemini I posted on the FASA thread.

Are you referring to this post?

Excellent!

Also, reposting here: the 1:1 size/mass rescale of Gemini-Titan II GLV

Frizzank_Gemini_Realscale.zip

Requires:

FASA (obviously)

Modular Fuels v3 full

Deadly Reentry Continued

FAR and Real Solar System (otherwise what's the point?)

Supports RemoteTech 1 (otherwise your power draw will be low)

Supports TAC Life Support with renamed resources (no _TAC at the end) otherwise your Gemini will be a hundred kg too light.

INSTRUCTIONS:

If launching to 0 inclination, a gauranteed to work MJ ascent path is turn start 1.3km, turn end 110km, end angle 0, turn shape 45. Note that neither the LR-87 nor LR-91 is throttleable. So if you want a lower apoapsis, you have to manually shut down the LR-91 (or set it to an AG in the VAB before launch for easy access).

Electrical charge balanced for 300watt draw. Yields 20 days of power if you use the fuel cell.

Due to not being able to make bipropellant RCS, all the OAMS thrusters (ingame both RCS and engine) use Monopropellant. But don't worry, the Isp and fuel mass is identical to real life. You will be shown > 222m/s dV, but that's because it can draw from the capsule's own supply. Shut that tank off until reentry.

A perigee of 9km is survivable coming from a 360-380km apogee. When you're ready for your 101m/s retro kick, pointo retrograde, and stage to jettison equipment module and activate retro module. Stage again when retro exhausted.

Stay pointed surface-retrograde on reentry. At 15km, stage to deploy the drogue. Drogue will fully deploy at 6.4km. At 3.2km, stage again to jettison nose section and drogue; main chute will semi-deploy. At 2.74km, main deploys.

Just take(start with) the values from the heatshield part.cfgs and DeadlyReentry.cfg from that zip?

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Are you referring to this post?

Just take(start with) the values from the heatshield part.cfgs and DeadlyReentry.cfg from that zip?

I believe so. The values also work with Real Solar Systems when applied to the Mk 1 pod from the tests I've done, so hopefully it'll work on the various other pods as well.

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2. Playing on Stock Kerbin, want realisitc levels of heat on reentry (i.e. faking an 8km/sec reentry): set the shockwave exponent and multiplier to taste; I suggest exponent 1.17 to start. You will likely have to increase the dissipation rates of heat shields (in the heatshield part.cfgs and in DeadlyReentry.cfg). For good values, you can check what I did for the Gemini heat shield in the Realscale Gemini I posted on the FASA thread.

BTW Nathan, I tried it out last night at 1.17 and with stock, and I think that value might be a tad high in terms of getting desirable gameplay results. What it's tending to result in is unshielded craft on a reasonable reentry trajectory burning up in the upper atmosphere way before the stock heat effects kick in (the flames surrounding your vessel), which becomes rather confusing as you're not really getting much visual feedback that you're in danger.

Just wanted to let you know about this, as I suspect you will likely be dealing with a lot of people asking questions about this kind of thing. I'll play around with some additional values to see if I can get a number that feels intuitive with stock, while perhaps not being entirely realistic, and report back with my findings.

Also, is there any chance that you would consider making some of these values non-final? In a remarkable coincidence, when you answered my question about such things in the MM thread the other day, one of the plug-ins I was hoping to tweak was this one :)

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Just a quick question, does this edition of DR work with the latest version of FAR?

Yes. I would be very surprised if it didn't since one of the things you really need to make Real Solar Systems work is FAR...

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Just a quick question, does this edition of DR work with the latest version of FAR?

Been playing with every version of DRE since its early days with FAR haven't had an issue pop up yet up to and including the current one.

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Yes. I would be very surprised if it didn't since one of the things you really need to make Real Solar Systems work is FAR...

Sorry, I didn't pay attention to what you guys were discussing. Thanks though

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Heh, thanks for clearing that up, thought something was off when the given temperature exponent was resulting in shockwaves as hot as 30000 C.

Now, while I think I can work out ablative shielding from your Gemini .cfg, will the non-ablative shielding need tweaks as well?

Heh.

Probably? You might have to increase the reflectivity percent.

I believe so. The values also work with Real Solar Systems when applied to the Mk 1 pod from the tests I've done, so hopefully it'll work on the various other pods as well.

Since Real Gemini has just over 1/2 the ablative shielding the Mk1 pod does, the loss rate will be a little low and dissipation a little high. Here's what I've been testing for the Mk1 pod:

@PART[mk1pod]:Final
{
@RESOURCE[ElectricCharge]
{
@amount = 48600
@maxAmount = 48600
}
@MODULE[ModuleReactionWheel]
{
@PitchTorque = 0.01
@YawTorque = 0.01
@RollTorque = 0.03
@RESOURCE[ElectricCharge]
{
@rate = 0.001
}
}
@MODULE[ModuleHeatShield]
{ // change the Mk1 Pod heat shield for real-scale Kerbin

@direction = 0, -1, 0 // bottom of pod
@reflective = 0.05 // 5% of heat is ignored at correct angle
@ablative = AblativeShielding
@loss
{ // loss is based on the shockwave temperature (also based on density)
@key,0 = 650 0 // start ablating at 650 degrees C
@key,1 = 1000 160 // peak ablation at 1000 degrees C
@key,2 = 5000 200 // max ablation at 5000 degrees C
}
@dissipation
{ // dissipation is based on the part's current temperature
@key,0 = 300 0 // begin ablating at 300 degrees C
@key,1 = 800 480 // maximum dissipation at 800 degrees C
}
}
}

Stick it in a new CFG somewhere, maybe call it RealPods.cfg

The electric charge is to match Mercury's charge load of 13.5kW-hr. Given the pod lasted max a day and a half, I'm guessing average usage was in the 300 watt range (0.3EC/s). I also nerfed the reaction wheel for obvious reasons.

Note that as of DRE v3, I fixed an issue where a shield might start ablating but not decrease temperature. Now you only start ablating when you start losing heat.

BTW Nathan, I tried it out last night at 1.17 and with stock, and I think that value might be a tad high in terms of getting desirable gameplay results. What it's tending to result in is unshielded craft on a reasonable reentry trajectory burning up in the upper atmosphere way before the stock heat effects kick in (the flames surrounding your vessel), which becomes rather confusing as you're not really getting much visual feedback that you're in danger.

Hmm. It's already the case that you're supposed to get full effects when velocity > fullThermal (default: 1100m/s) so Squad must be checking atmo density too. Not sure how to get around that one.

But an unshielded craft _should_ burn up, always, 100%, with anywhere near realistic (Earth-level) reentry heating. It's because Kerbin is basically the size of the moon (just a bit denser) that we have the laughably weak reentry effects people are used to. If earth-level heating is too much, by all means don't use a multiplier for shockwave! (or use a smaller one). :)

Just wanted to let you know about this, as I suspect you will likely be dealing with a lot of people asking questions about this kind of thing. I'll play around with some additional values to see if I can get a number that feels intuitive with stock, while perhaps not being entirely realistic, and report back with my findings.

Please do! To get 1.17 I just messed around in Excel for about 10 minutes, trying to get the temperatures to match. So it was at best an off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion. :)

Also, is there any chance that you would consider making some of these values non-final? In a remarkable coincidence, when you answered my question about such things in the MM thread the other day, one of the plug-ins I was hoping to tweak was this one :)

Uh...they're only final in custom.cfg. They're not final in their original form in DeadlyReentry.cfg. The custom.cfg is there when you edit (and save) values in the debug window. If you delete it, DRE won't recreate it until you change the values and hit save.

If I don't make them final, though, then one's custom settings, set in the game, may not be the actual settings being applied, which is also bad. So I suggest if you're setting them as Final elsewhere, just delete custom.cfg. But if it turns into an issue, we can try without :Final for a while and see if anyone else's workflow breaks. :)

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Hmm. It's already the case that you're supposed to get full effects when velocity > fullThermal (default: 1100m/s) so Squad must be checking atmo density too. Not sure how to get around that one.

Huh...strange. I'll poke around in the code a bit and see if there's anything I could do there. Ultimately I'd like players to get that kind of visual feedback when their craft is really in danger.

But an unshielded craft _should_ burn up, always, 100%, with anywhere near realistic (Earth-level) reentry heating. It's because Kerbin is basically the size of the moon (just a bit denser) that we have the laughably weak reentry effects people are used to. If earth-level heating is too much, by all means don't use a multiplier for shockwave! (or use a smaller one). :)

Yup, and I do very much want to get unshielded craft to burn up on entry, I'm just running tests on unshielded craft multiple times to try and tweak the numbers so that it "feels" right in stock, before moving on to tweaking the shield values so that when you *don't* burn up also feels about right :)

Please do! To get 1.17 I just messed around in Excel for about 10 minutes, trying to get the temperatures to match. So it was at best an off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion. :)

I plan on doing a rather extensive tweaking pass on the values today to try to get them where I want for a good "game" feel with a stock install, and I'll definitely share the results. What I'm basically aiming for is "if Squad implemented reentry effects into stock KSP, what would it be like?". If I do my job right here, hopefully it will provide decent values for "vanilla" players that are just looking for a little more challenge and to make reentry an actual gameplay consideration.

Uh...they're only final in custom.cfg. They're not final in their original form in DeadlyReentry.cfg. The custom.cfg is there when you edit (and save) values in the debug window. If you delete it, DRE won't recreate it until you change the values and hit save.

If I don't make them final, though, then one's custom settings, set in the game, may not be the actual settings being applied, which is also bad. So I suggest if you're setting them as Final elsewhere, just delete custom.cfg. But if it turns into an issue, we can try without :Final for a while and see if anyone else's workflow breaks. :)

Fair enough. What I'm aiming for is to make the project I'm working on as little of a hassle for players to install as possible, so that they can just plop in the required mods, and run it as is without tweaking any values themselves.

I guess it would help if I described it a bit so you'd have an idea of what I'm aiming for: basically my plugin/mod (it's a bit of both) is a rebalance of vanilla to provide meaningful career mode progression in gameplay terms, but is not at all realism centric. I just want to include certain aspects of realism such as reentry effects for the gameplay considerations they provide like "don't try to reenter the atmosphere with a landing module". To that end, I intend to have a number of "realism mods" as required installs to go alongside of it, Deadly Reentry being the first.

I guess you could look at it basically as if Squad decided to make career mode less of a tutorial, and more of an extended gameplay experience (which is what I was hoping it would be), but done in the spirit of stock KSP where it's a very "soft" form of realism and the focus is more on gameplay. Kinda semi hardcore but not all the way.

Since I'm balancing everything relative to each other to achieve that effect, I'd very much like it if players could just install everything as-is and go.

Anyways, if you're interested in learning more, I have a WIP thread going for it on my own forums ( http://www.sargunster.com/btwforum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8146 ) as I'd prefer not to do a public release until I've at least done a first past at balancing the whole tech tree. Right now, I'm only up to tech level 6, where I intend to focus on Mun landing, which is why the whole landing vs command module question is coming up.

So yeah, to make a long story short, if there's any way I could modify those final values from a config file in my own plugin directory without requiring players to manually mess with them, that would be awesome :)

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@NathanKell Do you have any other realistic pods modifications?

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FlowerChild, that sounds pretty cool!

Like I said, I can try with the next release remove the :Final, and see if anyone complains. If not, you're golden. :)

AbeS: use the same values for the 1.25m heatshield. Use the same values except quadruple the loss rate amount (480->1920) for the 2.5m heatshield. That should work for now, I think. Maybe increase dissipation a bit too, since a Munar reentry is going to be 1.5 to 2x the temperature at the start.

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FlowerChild, that sounds pretty cool!

Like I said, I can try with the next release remove the :Final, and see if anyone complains. If not, you're golden. :)

You're the man Nathan! That would be absolutely awesome, and since this thing isn't even close to a public release yet, I'm certainly willing to play around with multiple approaches to get it working while I work on tweaking values.

If there's anything I can do on my end to facilitate this, please don't hesitate to let me know.

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Hey, you're already doing it: finding real values. I never have time to play and test anymore. :\ :]

Hehe...that's kinda my thing. I tend to play the crap out of games I love and modify them incrementally to get the precise results I want, so entirely my pleasure :)

A small bug report: it appears that you can't enter decimal values into the tweaking window you have. Whole numbers are accepted fine, but trying to type a period in to create a decimal has no visible impact. Saving the results, closing, and reopening the window, also doesn't display any typed decimals, so it doesn't appear to just be a visual thing.

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Does the plugin still retain the ridiculous G-Force explosions. I always found it ironic/annoying that the older deadly reentry versions treated rocket parts as more delicate than humans when it comes to G-tolerance.

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no, this is "not so deadly reentry" . you have to try hard to make something burn up.. which is realistic considering kerbin's size

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You can have Kerbals die of G-forces, but you also pretty much have to try in order to manage it on Kerbin. Unless you run into a bug, that is, then you can lose your crew in a gentle spaceplane turn. That said, I think it's been fixed by now, and it didn't always happen anyway.

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Nonono, the new shockwave exponent and multiplier are if you want realistic heat on STOCK Kerbin, as FlowerChild and others were asking for. If you try to up it on rescaled Kerbin, you'll definitely burn up! Sorry that wasn't clearer.

Here are the config options, basically:

1. Playing on Stock Kerbin, want traditional DRE functionality: don't change anything

2. Playing on Stock Kerbin, want realisitc levels of heat on reentry (i.e. faking an 8km/sec reentry): set the shockwave exponent and multiplier to taste; I suggest exponent 1.17 to start. You will likely have to increase the dissipation rates of heat shields (in the heatshield part.cfgs and in DeadlyReentry.cfg). For good values, you can check what I did for the Gemini heat shield in the Realscale Gemini I posted on the FASA thread.

3. Playing on Real-scale Kerbin, want traditional DRE functionality: set _heat_ multiplier to 12 or so.

4. Playing on Real-scale Kerbin, want realistic heating. Change nothing in DRE settings. However, as in 2, you will likely need to edit heat shields.

NathanKell Thanks for the explanation. Everything is working great now. Except for one thing. Open parachutes can withstand hypersonic velocities.

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