NeoMorph Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 thanks guys appreciate itEdit: added that file to my MM folder upgraded to version 2 have the same issue the ares 5 and altair launcher from bobcats american pack the SRB's fall straight off upon arriving at the launch pad the decouplers lose the ability to hold it in place dont have this with 1.7I have the same thing... Do you have this strange event on going to launchpad where it is like something "flicks" the whole rocket and then it settles down... but in that time the boosters fall off? Sometimes reverting to launch doesn't cause the flick and the boosters stay on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starwaster Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I have the same thing... Do you have this strange event on going to launchpad where it is like something "flicks" the whole rocket and then it settles down... but in that time the boosters fall off? Sometimes reverting to launch doesn't cause the flick and the boosters stay on.Did you try what I posted and Galane reposted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferram4 Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 @lijat: What circumstances manage to cause that issue? The "crashed into launchpad" issue is what the flight log reports when forces on a part are enough to cause it to explode; the only situation that could happen in was coming off of rails and physics loaded.@NeoMorph: That's called "Launch Clamps like to jump a half meter or so when they're set to ground." They've done this since the upgrade to 0.23; dunno what causes it, but there's nothing I can do to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lijat Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I have only ever had the problem after coming of rails or loading a vehicle from the tracking station. Sometimes it explodes instantly, sometimes it shakes violently for half a second before exploding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANWRocketMan Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 @ferram4: Did you make any changes to launch clamps in v2.0?I use v1.7 still because it seems more stable with launch clamps(using v0.23 of Kerbal Space Program and RSS etc.). To the point where it does not matter how many you have. This using both the standard launch clamps and the ones in FASA.p.s. I still can't stick 25,000 tonnes on launch clamps because it starts bouncing up and down and hits the launchpad at 20m/s speed eventually. But that's to be expected I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferram4 Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 @lijat: What type of vehicle, at what velocity? Have you changed any of the settings in the config.xml? I need more specific information, since doing that in my game never causes the issue.@ANWRocketMan: There was a bug before v2.0 that actually broke the Launch Clamp's connection to the ground, so they just acted as big supports. The problem was that this also counted as "liftoff" for the purposes of the game. If I could find a way to cause that without "liftoff" occurring, I'd do that, since I like to have the mission clock actually running properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegrade Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Hey Ferram,Just a little bug report here - the KJRLoadLock input lock can sometimes remain in place if one reverts too quickly from the launchpad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lijat Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 @ferram4: I have spent some time reducing this bug to rule out other mods, right now I can semi reliably replicate this using only KerbalJointReinforcement, RealSolarSystem and Squad folders in GameData.Using this persistent file, select the Crafted named High Orbit Observer, go to maximum time warp quickly by pressing period and as soon as you reach maximum warp press comma to come of warp as quickly as you can, I think maybe spinning the craft a bit before going on rails helps but that is uncertain, on my system it takes about 5 times to trigger an explosion, the explosion starts by weird oscillation and ends in the parts exploding.When using more mods the bug is more likely to appear making me suspect some kind of race condition or time-steps adapting to the available CPU capacity. This is how far I can reduce it, if you need any other data tell me what and I will try to supply it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbeS Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 when you time warp your vessel wedges eastwards. In RSS it is even more noticeable than in stock. It can end up breaking your vessel. I think that's the issue, not sure though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lijat Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Doing some more experiments I managed to trigger it without KJR using only Real Solar Systems, so I guess this is only a KJR bug if ferram decides that the scope of KJR covers stabilising this situation.What do you think makes most sense from now, reporting the bug to the RealSolarSystem developers/Squad or to just ignore it, any changes some one might look at it if I do a bug report? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferram4 Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 It's really an extension of the old disassembly-when-coming-out-of-timewarp-bug, and it seems to be caused by the magnitude of whatever forces they're using to accelerate things to the necessary velocity when initializing physics. There's not much that can be done by Nathan, and Squad isn't going to be worried about it until they add more planets and larger timewarp factors. Honestly, the best thing to do is to give strict reproduction instructions to Nathan so he can set it up as a "bad things happen if you do this, don't do this" message for everyone and point them at the correct cause of the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IonMage Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I am having a problem with the 5-meter stretchable tanks randomly detaching for absolutely no reason whatsoever. No amount of strutting helps. Launch clamps do not help. I have tried multiply breakingforce and breakingtorque for it by 10, and I have tried the config Galane had a couple pages ago. Nothing changes anything for the better. I am seriously pulling my hair out over this, what the hell can I do to make it hold?This happened in 1.7, but only sometimes. I have since updated to 2.0, and even craft which worked before now detach like this. While it often happens at launc, there are some rare cases of it holding long enough, only to decouple ~10 seconds later, before I've even fired the first stage.I have posted this in the Stretchy tanks thread, and was directed here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferram4 Posted March 3, 2014 Author Share Posted March 3, 2014 What does the connection look like? (read: post a picture of the problem craft) Does it move at all prior to breaking? How much mass is this connection trying to hold? Have you attached tons of struts every which way with reckless abandon (that can cause stress to be concentrated at weird points)? Without more information I can't help, since I know for a fact that 5-meter stretchy tanks hold for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GavinZac Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Sooo... I'm not sure if this is a picture of KJR working, or a picture of KJR *not* working. Any ideas? Should my ship have simply fallen apart otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galane Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Remove KJR and try the launch. If it falls apart then KJR was working. Add moar struts. The small hardpoints make excellent standoffs for the struts to angle them so they'll work better across joints.Put a ring of 6 or 8 hardpoints around the top of one component and around the bottom of the one above. Then connect struts across at angles to make a truss style structure. Seems to work better than just running them straight up and down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IonMage Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Here are the two craft that are suffering my 5m tanks snapping inexplicably the most.Exhibit One: Breakage happens between the blue 5m and the Striped 5m (which is hidden behind boosters). I added the blue one on top because, in 1.7, that somehow stopped the breakage, but its back in full force in 2.0.This is with NO struts, and only some clamps. Suffice it to say, I've tried countless different combinations and amounts of strutting/clamps, unsuccessfully, hence my mounting frustration. Exhibit One has a huge part count, admittedly, and I would be willing to chalk it up to that, if it werent for Exhibit Two...Exhibit Two: I placed a Reaction Wheel of a smaller size between it and the interstage fairing, and strutted up the open area that created. This was an experiment which worked... once. Then it resumed the breakage. I also tried having the 'split 5m tanks' seen in exhibit two, but that didnt work here so its not pictured. Again, numerous other strutting setups have been attempted, with no success.Last night, I managed a couple launches with both rockets by hitting the launch button ASAP. This WORKED. I highly doubt you intended for launch conditions to be more stable than resting conditions . Of course, this trick has also stoppd working.I am using RSS (with rescaled Kerbol config), FAR, and other mods as you can likely see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aedile Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Ok, what's the deal with KJR and FAR. Seems like I can no longer built a plane, which won't make the kerbals endure endure enough G, for DR to basicly kill them.Even using FAR example craft and reducing the control surface sensitivity to 5% will give 15+ G at mach 1. while gently pulling up. I have not managed to pull more than 7G when KJR is uninstalled. Well guess I'll be strutting again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motokid600 Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) Here are the two craft that are suffering my 5m tanks snapping inexplicably the most.Exhibit One: Breakage happens between the blue 5m and the Striped 5m (which is hidden behind boosters). I added the blue one on top because, in 1.7, that somehow stopped the breakage, but its back in full force in 2.0.This is with NO struts, and only some clamps. Suffice it to say, I've tried countless different combinations and amounts of strutting/clamps, unsuccessfully, hence my mounting frustration. Exhibit One has a huge part count, admittedly, and I would be willing to chalk it up to that, if it werent for Exhibit Two...I placed a Reaction Wheel of a smaller size between it and the interstage fairing, and strutted up the open area that created. This was an experiment which worked... once. Then it resumed the breakage. I also tried having the 'split 5m tanks' seen in exhibit two, but that didnt work here so its not pictured. Again, numerous other strutting setups have been attempted, with no success.Last night, I managed a couple launches with both rockets by hitting the launch button ASAP. This WORKED. I highly doubt you intended for launch conditions to be more stable than resting conditions . Of course, this trick has also stoppd working.I am using RSS (with rescaled Kerbol config), FAR, and other mods as you can likely see.I had a similar issue. Question... When you revert to VAB does that gap persist? And you have to grab the stage and reset it under the interstage fairing? Then you go to fly and it pops off again? I solved this by using the stock launch clamps and more importantly I remade a new interstage fairing. Make sure that fairing also isn't clipping too harshly into the rocket. Make sure that with the "y" key iirc that the sides of the fairing are just touching the next stage and not cutting into it. On top of all that.. make sure each part there is connected to the proper node. Sometimes you won't even realise that the IS fairing is attatched to a node somewhere farther up the rocket, but LOOKS as if its okay. Same with the engines and fuel tanks. Some top and bottom nodes are so close together on decouplers that mistake can easily be made. I would remake the entire problem area there. Re-connect everything very carefully. That's how I fixed it. Also look into the type of engines your using and try something different If you can. Im still not sure as to the exact problem, but I'm confident it was a clipped part somewhere at some point.Nice rocket btw. Edited March 3, 2014 by Motokid600 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferram4 Posted March 3, 2014 Author Share Posted March 3, 2014 @GavinZac: That's probably not supposed to happen, but you'll get issues if you try to combine high g-forces with lots of little parts (SAS modules) squished between heavier parts (fuel tanks) there's really not much I can do there besides tell you that you need to place struts to send the force around the smaller parts rather than through them.@IonMage: What happens if you use no clamps? Does it still fail? If it doesn't then the issue is due to a stock bug with launch clamps that I've got a work-around in the works for. The 2nd vehicle where you're putting a tiny part in between two larger parts will cause issues for you since breakForces are partly based on the size of the part in KJR, and putting a much smaller part there will encourage more breakage.@Aedile: I don't know what you're talking about; I just flew almost all of the FAR example craft near Mach 1 at full pitch up and only had the g-forces peak around 6 or so on most of them, with higher g's only occurring from losing control. I'll need to know which craft was causing the issue, what you did exactly to cause it, and everything that was happening in game at the time. I also want to know what kind of framerate you're getting when this happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aedile Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 (edited) @ferram - thanks for the reply, I'll investigate further. I have quite a few mods installed, but leaving KJR out fixes my issue, so the least is incompatibility with KJR.I guess I need to try clean install with DR FAR KJR and Interstellar and see what the issue could be...Edit, something to do with B9 or Firespitter (even though no parts used in design) Edited March 3, 2014 by Aedile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneRaven Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 @ferram - I don't want to be a nag, but is there any ETA on 2.1? My current "mega-project" is in limbo until the KAS Strut fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IonMage Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 @IonMage: What happens if you use no clamps? Does it still fail? If it doesn't then the issue is due to a stock bug with launch clamps that I've got a work-around in the works for. The 2nd vehicle where you're putting a tiny part in between two larger parts will cause issues for you since breakForces are partly based on the size of the part in KJR, and putting a much smaller part there will encourage more breakage.The small reaction wheel was a one-off experiment to see how it would play out, and was not part of the actual design. But nevermind that, I think I found the problem: excess struts between the boosters and the inline, as well as between each other. The latter struts in question werent even touching either of the problem parts. Nice rocket btw. 100 tons to LKO in RSS, baby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbeS Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 100 tons to LKO. Should I tell him about Ferram's Eotena? (hint: something to do with 5000 tons) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GavinZac Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 @GavinZac: That's probably not supposed to happen, but you'll get issues if you try to combine high g-forces with lots of little parts (SAS modules) squished between heavier parts (fuel tanks) there's really not much I can do there besides tell you that you need to place struts to send the force around the smaller parts rather than through them.Yeah cheers, that was how I solved it. Was just curious if it was odd behaviour, or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomoo Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Hey, just to confirm: you are aware of the issue of KAS struts breaking off on craft load? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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