ferram4

[1.3] Kerbal Joint Reinforcement v3.3.3 7/24/17

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I cannot find any RO version of KJR here on the forums, or on spacedock.

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20 minutes ago, pap1723 said:

To be honest, any other version of KJR should not be out there at this point. The release version that we made as the RO team is indexed on CKAN. It is the "official" version at this point. 

What´s up with @Lisias's version and that version being 'parallel'? How come nobody communicated so that only one version would need to be developed?

4 minutes ago, RaiderMan said:

I cannot find any RO version of KJR here on the forums, or on spacedock.

https://github.com/KSP-RO/Kerbal-Joint-Reinforcement-Continued/releases

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13 minutes ago, iGGnitE said:

What´s up with @Lisias's version and that version being 'parallel'? How come nobody communicated so that only one version would need to be developed?

The RO team was not working on updating things to 1.6+ but needed to make some changes to get things working on 1.3.1. In turn, it was recompiled and then found out to be a better version of KJR than what was available already.

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now the question becomes..does it work WITHOUT Realism Overhaul? or is that required? further..why isnt this otherwise made known elsewhere on the forums? afterall..cant use it if we dont even know it exists, as not everyone uses ckan.

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Just now, RaiderMan said:

now the question becomes..does it work WITHOUT Realism Overhaul? or is that required? further..why isnt this otherwise made known elsewhere on the forums? afterall..cant use it if we dont even know it exists, as not everyone uses ckan.

It works, I just installed and tested it on a non-RO game. You can use it without RO.

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then, the next question becomes..where is the forum post so others, the ones who dont use ckan for example, know it exists and can then check it out?

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1 minute ago, RaiderMan said:

does it work WITHOUT Realism Overhaul?

Of course. The fact that the KSP-RO team maintains the mod does not mean that RO is required by any means. The RealPlume-StockConfigs repository is also part of the KSP-RO organization but of course has nothing to do with RO or the rest of the realism mods.

4 minutes ago, RaiderMan said:

why isnt this otherwise made known elsewhere on the forums?

Probably because it was just officially released. Speaking of which, @pap1723 could you create a new thread for KJR? This one has run its course and the OP cannot be updated anymore.

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20 minutes ago, Phineas Freak said:

Probably because it was just officially released. Speaking of which, @pap1723 could you create a new thread for KJR? This one has run its course and the OP cannot be updated anymore.

I am probably the wrong person to make a forum post. I'm not on here enough to do the type of stuff that is needed by that person.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, pap1723 said:

To be honest, any other version of KJR should not be out there at this point. The release version that we made as the RO team is indexed on CKAN. It is the "official" version at this point.

The only official KJR is Ferram's one, or the one Ferram authorize as such.

If the CKAN port are being delivered as it would be the Ferram's version (using the same name!), there's a very good chance it's a GPL infringement, as there's an explicit requirement that forks SHOULD NOT misrepresent the original work.

Assuming Ferram didn't authorize the use of the name, and assuming CKAN is delivering KSP-RO using the same name as Ferram's, I would rethink some things...

That's the reason I never claimed being the successor or anything. 

— — — — — POST EDIT — — — — — 

No. The new update is labeled KerbalJointReinforcementContinued. Not a problem. @pap1723, may I ask some more caution on the matter? :) Copyrights are serious business.

Edited by Lisias
Not a problem.

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Ferram has worked closely with the KSP-RO team for a long, long time. There is no license infringement as this is not the first time KSP-RO has released a version. It is listed under KerbalJointReinforcementContinued.

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I for one think a new thread (for both versions) is warranted though. This topic is already very confused. It's up to 106 pages of mostly people asking if there's a version for their version of the game.

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16 minutes ago, pap1723 said:

Ferram has worked closely with the KSP-RO team for a long, long time. 

Irrelevant. Until Ferram officially yields the name to someone else, the only "Official" Kerbal Joint Reinforcement is his. Point.

 

17 minutes ago, pap1723 said:

There is no license infringement as this is not the first time KSP-RO has released a version. It is listed under KerbalJointReinforcementContinued.

Now I know. I checked it myself. Your error was claiming it as the new "Official".

 

9 minutes ago, TiktaalikDreaming said:

I for one think a new thread (for both versions) is warranted though. This topic is already very confused. It's up to 106 pages of mostly people asking if there's a version for their version of the game.

Now I agree. I'm not the only player on the town anymore. And I want to rollback my version as being "Experimental" only.

Properly support an Add'On is a lot of heavy work, and I want to expend mine on developing my own ideas, not supporting other people's works. :) 

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Thanks to all for clarifying this...sorry if I caused anyone any grief or more work!

Thank you @pap1723 for creating the new thread and thank you @Lisias & @iGGnitE for all the responses and clarifications. 

You guys are all awesome in my book. :cool:

 

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3 hours ago, iGGnitE said:

What´s up with @Lisias's version and that version being 'parallel'? How come nobody communicated so that only one version would need to be developed?

My version is a personal fork that I'm working for a long time to cope with my own needs. However, it happened that it was also the only version working fine from 1.2.2 to 1.6.1 (and now for1.7.0) that also had some very interesting optimizations made by @Rudolf Meier and someone found my fork I don't know how :D and used it and started to ask questions and pinpoints bugs, and so I thought it would be a good idea to keep things running for while.

What happened is that I don't play RO, and the RO guys don't care about my needs. So I just keep developing my fork for me and helping people using it.

This is not a job. I'm not getting paid. I don't see the need to communicate someone for developing the things that I want - and the very same applies to someone else, no one needs to communicate anything to me. ;) 

I'm thankful to anyone that choose to use my fork, you guys helped me as much as I helped you. The amount of useful in situ information I got here would be impossible without you. Thanks again.

But it's also a relief that I'm not the only one supporting this anymore, as now someone else is going to properly support things and I will have time to spend on my own ideas without risking breakage on a lot of unattended users that just wanted a working KJR fork.

For anyone still willing to use my fork, please fasten your seat belts :D while doing it and contact me the way it best fits you for help. I will do my best.

 

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I will re-upload my version for 1.7 as soon as IR next is fixed... maybe this works... no idea, but at least I don't have problems with it.

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6 hours ago, Lisias said:

However, it happened that it was also the only version working fine from 1.2.2 to 1.6.1 (and now for1.7.0) that also had some very interesting optimizations made by @Rudolf Meier and someone found my fork I don't know how :D and used it and started to ask questions and pinpoints bugs, and so I thought it would be a good idea to keep things running for while.

Just for clarity, LinuxGuruGamer's forked also worked fine from when it was forked through until now and on the contrary to your post, I never got your fork to work without it throwing exceptions so it's different strokes for different folks.

There's no black and white here.

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18 minutes ago, Poodmund said:

 on the contrary to your post, I never got your fork to work without it throwing exceptions so it's different strokes for different folks.

Because you choose to never fix the problems that were affecting KSPe.

There's a long history on the backlog and on this thread. Feel free to check how many times people got here taking about KJR and I pinpointed other Add'Ons borking the Mono's Reflection. People that did what I said got it working, people that didn't, didn't. 

There's no black or white indeed. There're people doing what's needed, and people don't. 

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Posted (edited)

@Lisias What does your version of KJR do differently than the RO-guys' version that you feel the need to develop it in its own fork?
Maybe if they aren't that different you could focus your time and energy into developing other mods like TweakScale and maybe you'll finally have some more time on your hands to actually play the game?
Whatever you choose, just know that I and thousands of other players will always be grateful for the hard work you and other mod devs put into the mods, you guys make a good game into something absolutely phenomenal.

Cheers!

Edited by iGGnitE

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34 minutes ago, iGGnitE said:

@Lisias What does your version of KJR do differently than the RO-guys' version that you feel the need to develop it in its own fork?

Some code improvements and optimizations that @Rudolf Meier did once and made a push request to Ferram's.

At least for me, it was terribly faster and slightly more reliable (probably by being more efficient and imposing less load on the physics engine). Some pages ago I published 3 videos recorded on my MacPotato benchmarking IR/Next without anything, with @wolderadowolderado's compilation (the Ferram's pure code without the version lock) and mine.

You will see strengths and weaknesses on both approaches (Ferram's one, and the new one from Rudolf). 

Of course, Ferram must had his reasons to rollback the Rudolf's push request, but yet Rudolf's one made the thing usable on my machine.

I also have a pet project, KSPe, that aims to make a lot of things every Add'On needs to do in a simplified and standardized way, and the simplicity and some internal characteristics made KJR an excellent candidate to test it.

So I forked Ferram's, made my changes, installed it on my machines and forgot about. I didn't even knew that some other forks where deleted when someone reached me asking for directions on the thing.

About TweakScale, it's a symbiotic thing. A lot of things I learnt taking care of KJR helped me on some harsh decisions I had to take on TweakScale. And vice versa.

Scaling things overstresses the physics engine on some really big and small factors, and tweaking KJR helped me to figure out (or near it) what's happening.

So, yeah. My work on TweakScale would be somewhat more difficult if I never had forked KJR. 

My lack of time, currently, is due Real Life issues. Researching is not the same as building. I usually spend 1 to 2 hours until I finally "get into it" and start to get productive - it's like you playing KSP, had to stop for half a hour doing something else and when you are back you don't know exactly what you was doing anymore. But somewhat worse. :D

without about 4 hours to spend on it without being interrupted, it's not worth to start to work on some things. And my weekends were somewhat busy on the last months. :)

 

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1 hour ago, Lisias said:

Because you choose to never fix the problems that were affecting KSPe.

KSPAPIExtensions has been deprecated for a long time now (most of its features were implemented by KSP itself between the KSP 1.0 and 1.2 (1.3?) releases). Why KJR ended up with that dependency?

BTW, the root KSP folders (like "PluginData") are leftover artifacts. Mods should not assume that these folder are valid (or even exist).

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Phineas Freak said:

KSPAPIExtensions has been deprecated for a long time now (most of its features were implemented by KSP itself between the KSP 1.0 and 1.2 (1.3?) releases). 

Because I'm extending it. KSPe is a new component, KSPAPIExtensions are being gradually updated to allow old Add'Ons to work again. You now, some people are very attached to some old Add'Ons and just tried 1.7 when they got supported again. ;)

 

13 minutes ago, Phineas Freak said:

Why KJR ended up with that dependency?

KJR doesn't. KJR/L does. It's a big difference. 

 

13 minutes ago, Phineas Freak said:

BTW, the root KSP folders (like "PluginData") are leftover artifacts. Mods should not assume that these folder are valid (or even exist).

I already explained about this on the post below. And I don't assume it's there, I recreate it when it doesn't. :) I know my trade. ;)

 

Edited by Lisias
Tyops garole!

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This thread has gotten badly derailed (for months, and many many pages of posts), so to prevent further confusion we're locking it.  @ferram4, we're sorry that your thread has gotten so completely derailed for so long, in your absence.  If you ever come back and would like your thread opened again, please let us know and we're happy to unlock it-- just report this post.

To everyone else here:  There appears to be some confusion over mods, forking, etc.  I know that KJR is a much-beloved mod by a very large number of people, which is why this thread has gotten so badly derailed in ferram4's absence:  the mod is, in effect, in the "too big to fail" category, and various people understandably work to revive it, and various users understandably want to get help and guidance.  That's all perfectly reasonable... but there's a right way and a wrong way to go about this, and "derail someone's thread ad infinitum while bickering at each other" is not the right way.  ;)

So, just to clear up a few points.  Please understand the following:

  • There is no such thing as an "official" version of any mod, ever.  All versions are equally official, as long as they're permitted by licensing terms.
  • This thread is just the thread for the ferram4 release of KJR.  No more, no less. If someone wants to make their own fork, we suggest making your own release thread.
  • Since no one thread is "official", users have to use their own judgment when picking one.

Lengthy sermonizing about the above three points in spoiler, for anyone who's pining for a Wall of Text™ ;)

Spoiler

There is no such thing as an "official version" of any mod, ever.  That's not a thing.  There is only a particular author's RELEASE of a mod.

This is a pretty important concept, because lots of people seem to be laboring under the misconception that "official version" is a thing.  Naturally it would be nice if there could be an "official" version.  It's very confusing if you're a mod user, right?

"Oh, ugh, I want to use mod XYZ, but the author's been gone for a long time, and now there are umpteen different XYZ forks out there.  I don't want to mess with picking and choosing, I just want to use mod XYZ.  Which one of all these forks is the official one?"

Nope, sorry.  There isn't one.  They're all "official"... or, rather, none of them are.

For example, this thread?  This is not the "official KJR thread", because there's no such thing.  It's the official thread for ferram4's release of KJR.  No more, no less.

So if you're talking about ferram4's release of KJR, this is the thread for it.  Anything else is off-topic for the thread (or, at least, is at best tangentially related).

 

Wait, what, seriously?  That's ridiculous.  I mean, the original author is more "official" than forks, right?

Nope.

It all comes down to licensing.  A mod either has a license that allows people to make (and modify) forks... or it doesn't.

If the mod's license doesn't allow forks... then there's no ambiguity, because there shall be no forks, and the original author's version is the only version that's allowed to exist.  It's not "official", it just simply happens to be a monopoly with the force of law behind it.

If the mod's license does allow forks... then it does, and the barn door is open and all the horses can bolt out.  In that case, every fork is just as "official" (or not) as every other, including the original.  "Official" isn't a thing, and nobody can lay claim to that.  Either they're legally allowed, or they're not.  If they are, then they're legitimate, and that's all one can say.

And then, yes, you have a plethora of threads.  This here is ferram4's KJR release thread, and that over there is some other user's KJR release thread, and so forth for anyone else who releases a thread.  And none of the people forking is in any position to claim that their version is any more "official" than anyone else's.

 

But that's a pain in the butt!  I just want to use KJR, and I want to use the main one that's official and will keep working and be maintained forever.  If none of them are "official", I don't know which one to use.

Yes, that is indeed a pain, but that's how the world works.  Sorry.

Nobody has a crystal ball.  Nobody can see into the future and know which forks will thrive, or which ones will wither on the vine, or which new ones might spring up in the future.

If you want to pick and choose... you just have to use your judgment.  Look at the threads, look at the levels of activity and download counts, look at what people are saying in the threads, use your judgment about the author of the particular fork-- whatever you need when making your choice.  But it's up to you, and caveat emptor, and nobody can guide you to one or the other.

 

Since this thread has gone off the rails so badly, it's staying locked, folks (until and unless @ferram4 comes back and requests an unlock).  In the meantime:

  • If you're a modder and would like to release your own KJR fork:  Then do so.  KJR is licensed GNU GPLv3, and lets you fork it, as long as you follow the licensing terms.  Just make your own release thread, same as anyone else.  Nobody stopping you.  :)
  • If you're a KJR user and want to find a usable fork:  Go find available ones, and pick whichever one you deem most worthy.
     

For your convenience, here's a handy link that searches the forum for any other KJR threads that may be out there:

All Add-on Releases threads with "KJR" or "Kerbal Joint Reinforcement" in the title, sorted by date

 

That's as good as you're gonna get.  Beyond that, picking one is up to your judgment.

Thank you for your understanding.

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