ferram4

[1.3] Kerbal Joint Reinforcement v3.3.3 7/24/17

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Why oh why can I not play KSP?  Because it is an endless cycle - new release, wait for mods, then there is patch (or two, or three) to fix known bugs, wait for mods again, realize that the main release is still screwed up too much to be playable despite all updates and advances, wait for next release, repeat...  Damn!

Ferram4, this criticism it is in not in any way directed to you, I greatly appreciate that you still keep working on your mods (which I consider essential) after all this time.  Looking forward to the new KJR release, whenever it comes!

Edited by Tau137

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1 hour ago, Tau137 said:

Why oh why can I not play KSP?  Because it is an endless cycle - new release, wait for mods, then there is patch (or two, or three) to fix known bugs, wait for mods again, realize that the main release is still screwed up too much to be playable despite all updates and advances, wait for next release, repeat...  Damn!

Ferram4, this criticism it is in not in any way directed to you, I greatly appreciate that you still keep working on your mods (which I consider essential) after all this time.  Looking forward to the new KJR release, whenever it comes!

Relax, the new autostrut feature, while not at the level of KJR, makes the game mostly playable also for big rocket/ships.

The update routine bother many of us, but we can say that 1.2 isn't bad at all.

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Can anyone actually EXPLAIN the autostrut feature? I THINK I have some kind of understanding of it, but I've yet to see any actual explanation of it (or the rigidity feature either, for that matter). Even a pointer to a thread would be good, cause it's not doing what I think it should be.

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The autostrut feature doesn't seem to be very effective. Rockets are still incredibly wobbly, KJR is sorely missed and will be extremely welcome when its updated. I honestly can't believe squad hasn't implemented something to fix that yet, its pretty ridiculous.

Edited by HazyHexagon

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33 minutes ago, Shadriss said:

Can anyone actually EXPLAIN the autostrut feature? I THINK I have some kind of understanding of it, but I've yet to see any actual explanation of it (or the rigidity feature either, for that matter). Even a pointer to a thread would be good, cause it's not doing what I think it should be.

Autostruts literally create an invisible massless strut between the origin part and either the root, heaviest or grandparent part (toggleable), and has the effect of creating a joint that cuts through any connecting part(s).  There's an option in the debug console that shows a visualization of the autostrut (an orange line) so you can see exactly where it's going.  From what Mu said on a Squadcast a few months ago, they apparently work something like what KJR does, as he said @ferram4 would understand what was involved in adding them, since he dealt with similar issues with KJR.

They were initially added in 1.1.1 or 1.1.2 (by @Arsonide) as one of the workarounds for the wheel problems with Unity 5.2.4, and were an automatic feature of landing gear.  The side effect of them greatly strengthening whatever they were attached to soon became utilized by two notable Twitch KSP streamers to create large non-wobbly space stations and other structures. The autostruts became popular enough that in the 1.2 development, they were retained (all of the other wheel workarounds were removed) and expanded as a selectable option for all parts.

They do need to be used strategically, with understanding of part hierarchies, to get the full effect.

In comparision, Rigid Joint Attachment simply turns on Unity's Locked Joint mode, so they won't bend as much, but are not 100% rigid.  Think of a strand of dry spaghetti compared to a wet one. :)

 

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20 minutes ago, Laguna said:

They do need to be used strategically, with understanding of part hierarchies, to get the full effect.

In comparision, Rigid Joint Attachment simply turns on Unity's Locked Joint mode, so they won't bend as much, but are not 100% rigid.  Think of a strand of dry spaghetti compared to a wet one. :)

 

To the first - this is the part that is likely causing my problems. To the second, dry spaghetti breaks far more easily than wet spaghetti, at least when just wobbling them back and forth like our rockets are. Anyhow, thanks for the info - I wasn't aware it was in 1.1.1 or 1.1.2 at all. This kind of begs the question - why aren't these on by default then? Or are they if you don't have AT enabled in the options?

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1 hour ago, HazyHexagon said:

The autostrut feature doesn't seem to be very effective. Rockets are still incredibly wobbly, KJR is sorely missed and will be extremely welcome when its updated. I honestly can't believe squad hasn't implemented something to fix that yet, its pretty ridiculous.

You actually activated it on all your vessel part ?

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10 minutes ago, Shadriss said:

To the first - this is the part that is likely causing my problems. To the second, dry spaghetti breaks far more easily than wet spaghetti, at least when just wobbling them back and forth like our rockets are. Anyhow, thanks for the info - I wasn't aware it was in 1.1.1 or 1.1.2 at all. This kind of begs the question - why aren't these on by default then? Or are they if you don't have AT enabled in the options?

Yep, ideally you want the autostruts to run through as many parts as possible to the target.  A good example is using a command pod as the Root part on a rocket, and autostrutting tanks and boosters to it.  That way you won't lose the autostruts when you separate stages.

Yeah, autostruts (and the Rigid Joint Attachment option) are only available with Advanced Tweakables turned on.  I guess the thinking that this was a tool for more experienced players to use, and would confuse and clutter up the right-click menus for newcomers (like all of the other AT options).

 

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2 hours ago, HazyHexagon said:

The autostrut feature doesn't seem to be very effective. Rockets are still incredibly wobbly, KJR is sorely missed and will be extremely welcome when its updated. I honestly can't believe squad hasn't implemented something to fix that yet, its pretty ridiculous.

It works if you activate it on the more wobbly joints of you rockets, so usually decouplers, docking ports and engines. It's a way to survive until KJR is ready.

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3 hours ago, Laguna said:

Yep, ideally you want the autostruts to run through as many parts as possible to the target.  A good example is using a command pod as the Root part on a rocket, and autostrutting tanks and boosters to it.  That way you won't lose the autostruts when you separate stages.

 

2 hours ago, Nansuchao said:

It works if you activate it on the more wobbly joints of you rockets, so usually decouplers, docking ports and engines. It's a way to survive until KJR is ready.

Hmmm... these two pieces of advice would seem to be somewhat contradictory... which only reinforces my belief that this feature isn't very well understood.

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1 hour ago, Shadriss said:

 

Hmmm... these two pieces of advice would seem to be somewhat contradictory... which only reinforces my belief that this feature isn't very well understood.

By "activate" I think he meant using those parts as the origin point, and autostrut them to the desired target...like a command pod root part .

What you don't want to do is go crazy and autostrut everything, this is counterproductive and will cause the game to slow down; not as much as real struts would, but still a performance hit.  That is why you have to be strategic in their use, like with the real struts.

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ive been pleasantly surprised with 1.2

while i will still immediately download and install KJR once its updated,  i have not yet experienced any 'wobbly rockets'.  even on ssto's with strange wing designs composed of many pieces, the non-root parts dont wiggle all over without an abundance of struts.

 

the only thing at the moment that i am really anxious over is larger crafts with that first half second on the launchpad when it first loads and everything 'falls down and settles'

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7 hours ago, TK421d said:

ive been pleasantly surprised with 1.2

while i will still immediately download and install KJR once its updated,  i have not yet experienced any 'wobbly rockets'.  even on ssto's with strange wing designs composed of many pieces, the non-root parts dont wiggle all over without an abundance of struts.

 

the only thing at the moment that i am really anxious over is larger crafts with that first half second on the launchpad when it first loads and everything 'falls down and settles'

I can quite clearly state that large craft still wobble, and still do the bad SAS wobble thing. 

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33 minutes ago, TiktaalikDreaming said:

I can quite clearly state that large craft still wobble, and still do the bad SAS wobble thing. 

I would add that I too have experienced extensive wobble when launching RSS-style craft.  The auto-strut features also seem to degrade my performance, akin to adding dozens of struts manually.  In short: there is still a great need for KJR.

I also believe we will see more of a demand once Kopernicus updates.  I suspect that a great many old hats, myself included, aren;t playing KSP seriously atm but will start once we again have have access to larger-scale planet packs.

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A few posts have been tidied up from this thread:  first, a person asking for an update, then several people scolding the person for doing that.

Let's keep it friendly, folks.  Just to be clear:

  • Please be mindful of forum rule 2.3.f, and do not ask mod authors for updates if someone else has already asked, or if the author has already provided the information.
  • If you see someone else doing something that appears to you to be against the rules (such as violating rule 2.3.f), please just report the post and let the moderator staff deal with anything that may need dealing with.  Pleas do NOT scold the person yourself, as that's considered "backseat moderation" and is, itself, against the rules (3.2).

Thank you for your understanding, and we now return you to this mod thread already in progress.

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If this mod is unmissable for your rockets, and waiting for the update is to long for you, place your strutts yourself. As before this awesome and unmissable mod was created bij Ferram, in the early days of KSP (I play since 0.19) you had to place the strutts yourself and really needed alot of em. If you reinforce every connection on your massively large rockets with 8 strutts your good to go. Only we became to lazy doing that because of KJR.

To Ferram: thank you for this awesome mod (and all the other mods you make).

To all the lazy and spoiled players who can't wait: Be patient and strutt yourself till the update is there.

strut.gif

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4 hours ago, Aluminator said:

Only we became to lazy doing that because of KJR.

That's not the main problem for me. Struts are good when you launch single vehicle. But you can't use struts on orbit. Lots of people prefer to use giant aspargus rockets to launch heavy payloads to distant places. But i prefer orbital constructions. It's more interesting for me. Something like these interplanetary ships can be pretty wobbly. They are long, have many docking ports and pretty unbalanced overall.

Yep. You can install mods and strut modules on orbit manualy. But it takes a lot of time and it's hard to stack everything together without KJR.

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Honestly though. Sometimes KJR is culprit behind wobble/krakens/instability. It happens. Sometimes docking ports glitch. Even after it was fixed. So take you time, ferram4! Do it right and awesome. 

Edited by SuppaTenko
Grammar errors

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On 14/10/2016 at 9:27 PM, Laguna said:

They (ND: "autostrut") do need to be used strategically, with understanding of part hierarchies, to get the full effect.

In comparision, Rigid Joint Attachment simply turns on Unity's Locked Joint mode, so they won't bend as much, but are not 100% rigid.  Think of a strand of dry spaghetti compared to a wet one. :)

 

I do use it to avoid wobbly rockets:
for each part, have to turn on Rigid Joint Attachment, and in some ignorant way, for each main part, use liberally the option "strut to grandparent part" (as it lock a part to the one it is attached).

No issue then on big rockets or big planes (even if it is annoying, doing it on a part basis).

YES: KJR is a "MUST TO HAVE" mod.

On 15/10/2016 at 2:05 AM, Shadriss said:

 

Hmmm... these two pieces of advice would seem to be somewhat contradictory... which only reinforces my belief that this feature isn't very well understood.

 

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17 minutes ago, Alvargon said:

is the mod working on 1.2?

Not yet, no.  Ferram4 said that getting it working is also a prerequisite to getting FAR working, so this is a very important thread to follow! :)

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Alright, so for the people who are willing to help test and those who are impatient but fully understand the meaning of "it's a dev build, everything might break, don't complain about the Kraken taking your save" there is a 1.2-compatible dev build available here.  Main things to test are that nothing spontaneously explodes during loading from timewarp, nothing is magically indestructible in crashes, and that the weldable construction docking ports from RoverDude's Konstruction Mod don't break KJR (if they do, that's my problem; say so here, not over there).  Also, as this is a dev build, don't try to get it on CKAN or anything because it isn't confirmed stable yet.

Also, as an added bonus, because gravity-based physics easing is now a part of the stock game KJR uses that system.  This means it can be shut off if you want.  Probably better not to though.

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2 hours ago, ferram4 said:

 

Thanks even for having a go at it again, for the first time ever in the history of playing KSP(since 2012) I've had to use the cheat menu just to keep ships together, if this works half as well as it did previously it will still be a massive improvement over the results disaster no fun I'm getting right now.

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3 hours ago, ferram4 said:

snip

I made a couple of tests with the biggest rocket I could build and with a big MK3 plane. The difference is huge; no autostruts at all on the rocket, just a single strut for every radial booster and no struts at all on the plane with big procedural wings and engine attached on the wings: KJR seems better than ever, no wobbling at all, no weird phantom forces, on 4X physical warp too.

I noticed just a jump on the plane loading, maybe due to the tweascaled landing gears.

No issue on docking/undocking too and/or with big space stations.

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is "autostruts" a new thing in 1.2?  how do you turn that off/on?

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Advanced Tweakables on settings menu

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Thanks ferram4.

much appreciate all of the work that you do.

Cheers.

testing is always fun.  that is why we have LES.

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