(OLD) The Ultimate Jool-5 Challenge:land Kerbals on all moons and return in one big mission

[Rakaydos]

Hello!

I've been tempted by looking at all your big(and little) fancy grand tours, to actually attempt my own.

In case I do decide to go for the "Jeb" difficulty level again, the "Jool-5" part of the mission will be exactly the same as my previous. Continuing to all other bodies from there.

So I have a question for Ziv, concerning clipped parts.

I'd like you to inspect this Eve lander.

The probe core may look as it's clipped, but it's in fact a fuel tank "radially" attached to the bottom of the probe.

http://i.imgur.com/1yyrplS.jpg

Here's my main concern, the decoupler from which the ascent vehicle is suspended:

Decoupler is attached to the probe. On the probe there's a chair,

http://i.imgur.com/yUgtP4M.jpg

...which comfortably sits(unmanned, of course!) inside the hollow decouplers :]

http://i.imgur.com/Uue9T47.jpg

Also this design uses inverted cubic struts for its engines, but I seen already that you accept that so long as the engines are not clipped into the tank or any funny stuff like that.

This is the best solution I could come up with so far, other variations would look unbelievably ugly :-p

Like in all my previous KSP missions, NO cheat-codes are involved in designing crafts/playing!

And now I just need to know if you will accept this design.

===============

Nice, looking forward to see the mission ;]

I beg to differ:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22015656/VenusLanderLauncher.jpg

Not mine!!! it's part of Maccollo's manned Venus mission in RSS.

Edit: oh yeah, and the person above. O_O

This was for my jool 5 entry back in 2.3

[Ziv]

What's your stance on SXT and Tantares?

I'm going to start a multi-mission journey with these and some other mods that are already on the OK list, and Jool-5 will be a part. I don't mind if you don't let them be used, and my ship has more clipping than you would like so it will probably go in mixed solutions if I do post it here anyway. Specifically, some parts that are of note: 2 large atomic engines in SXT: one has mass 9, ISP 640, thrust 480, other has mass 9, ISP 840, thrust 180. Tantares crew pod: 2 crew, mass 0.94. LK landing engine in Tantares: mass 0.35, ISP 400, thrust 65.

So, I checked them, Tantares has some parts which has advantage over the stock parts, like:

- TST Crew module, it is very small in size (half than the mk1?!), weights only 0.9 tons and can hold two Kerbals

- ALN Descent capsule, which is also too small, and with 1,6 tons and 3 Kerbals

- and most of its engines are also overpowered to the stock, and usually are too smalls at the same time

so Tantares is prohibited.

SXT also has some questionable parts which may give advantage:

- Kerlington Model 35 'Bonny', it's only 0.35 tons and can hold a Kerbal, and putting rules on parts (no space use of this part) would make it too complex

- I yet checked the smaller liquid engines only and they seems to be okay. The small jet engine maybe can give too much dV on a very small aircraft

- there are some crew module which can hold too much Kerbal with a too small part weight

- it's still a pre-release and many of the parts are not finished yet

so I don't allow this mod yet neither, but this may be good later if it will be closer to stock in terms of TWR, thrust-by-fuel, Weight-to-Kerbal or part sizes.

Btw I liked many of the parts in this pack so this is definitely a worth to check later!

Edited September 29, 2014 by Ziv

[Lack]

SXT also has some questionable parts which may give advantage:

- Kerlington Model 35 'Bonny', it's only 0.35 tons and can hold a Kerbal, and putting rules on parts (no space use of this part) would make it too complex

- I yet checked the smaller liquid engines only and they seems to be okay. The small jet engine maybe can give too much dV on a very small aircraft

- there are some crew module which can hold too much Kerbal with a too small part weight

- it's still a pre-release and many of the parts are not finished yet

so I don't allow this mod yet neither, but this may be good later if it will be closer to stock in terms of TWR, thrust-by-fuel, Weight-to-Kerbal or part sizes.

Btw I liked many of the parts in this pack so this is definitely a worth to check later!

In the interest of improving SXT (the naming is arbitary, btw. It's a 'pre-release' of version 17. I've considered most of the versions a 'finished product', I just like tinkering.)

- re: the Bonny. Fair point, sadly don't have a way to kill the Kerbal inside this if there isn't O2 present... yet. But anyone using this outside of the atmosphere is kind of missing the point of it. Also worth considering that the lack of SAS makes space use difficult as well.

The Mk1 weighs in at 0.7 mpK (Mass per Kerbal, after adjusting for things like mono-prop storage and SAS). But then again, the EAS-1 is only 0.05 mpK.

- The small jet engine has a a considerably worse thrust to weight ratio than any of the stock engines (10.2 vs 15.3 of the 1.25m engine). The other engine's ISP and TWR are addressed in the graphs and charts I posted a page or so back.

- The 'hitch-hiker' like crew modules are all either the same as stock, or worse in terms of mass per Kerbal. The command pods were calculated in a similar manner, but I made a few adjustments here and there for the sake of 'general' rather than 'mathematically exact' balance.

Stock PPD-10 Hitch-hiker - 0.625 mpK

PPD-4 [2.5m - 2 man half-hitchhiker] - 0.625 mpK [Same as stock]
PPD-6 [2.5m - 4 man hitchhiker with Elec and Monoprop] - 0.6275mpK [Worse than stock, just]
SPKTR-10 [2.5m-3.75m-1.25m] - 0.74 mpK [Worse than stock]
CANIOT-7 [3.75m] - 0.625 mpK [Same as stock]
ISK-30 [3.75m] - 0.625 mpK [Same as stock]
LK-S3E Heavy Habitat [5m] - 0.91 mpK [Worse than stock]

All mass calculated after accounting for any electrical, torque or fuel capacity.

- Any other comment on specific parts is appreciated. I've been very careful to keep things in-line with stock values, most of it is done with excel or a calculator, so anything that's wrong means I've ****** up somewhere and it needs to be fixed.

[Ziv]

Yeah, maybe I would just disqualify somebody if would use the 'Bonny' for space travel, hehe.

I'm experimenting with the small jet and that's incredible that I can easily have 200'000 m/s dV on some drops of fuel... so this makes small planes go forever. I think TWR doesn't count much at jets, this small engine with 10 thrust is enough to push a normal plane up. But what I experienced is that it's not enough to gain high speeds at high altitudes so it's not so easy to leave the atmosphere with this, and this is good.

I also made a little plane with 'Bonny' and the jet and what I found is that there's no good-looking small fuel tank, only the Oscar-B which looks bad on the plane.

And I was saying it's still pre-release because there were some parts like a black block between the pods, or a huge "crew tank" full of fuel... and sometimes the part descripitions had only the path for the file...

I would be happy to test all of your parts, let me know where can I give you feedbacks!

[Thunderous Echo]

Well, I'm seeting a distance record for face tabogganing on the Mun right now.

waiting to hit the bottom of this crater.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Thunderous Echo

[DaMichel]

Finally my entry is ready. Here is the album again. (Warning: Easter Egg Spoilers!)

Javascript is disabled. View full album

Please have a look at my lander. There is some clipping going on and i don't want to cheat. Unfortunately i didn't read the instructions carefully enough to realize that you don't want clipping at all. When i finally did, it was too late since the mission was already half way through.

That aside, the mission was successfully completed and 17372 science points earned. Here is he additional info you asked for:

- Which game versions did you use?

0.24

- What mods did you use, if any?

FAR+DRE, Spaceplane+. Information Mods: Engineer, RCS Build Aid, NRAP Test weights, Kerbal Flight Data, Kerbal Flight Indicators, Precise Node, Docking Port Alignment Indicators, Kerbal Alarm Clock.

- How many launches was needed to start your mission from Kerbal?

4

- How many refueling did you do during the mission, how much and where?

I didn't refuel. In fact the ship had so much fuel that i dumped fuel by the end of the mission.

- Did you bring a Living Quarter (Hitch-hiker's Storage) for the guys during the long journey?

Yes!

- Did you bring additional stuff like satellites, rovers, etc?

No. But i ran a ScanSat mission before to find the anomalies.

- Share the delta-V informations too, if you tracked it!

I didn't track it in detail. Some figures can be taken from the

screenshots i guess. But the main ship hat around 8 km/s DV when

it left Kerbin orbit. This doesn't account for the ditching of

various stages though. So effecively it was even more than that.

[Thunderous Echo]

Enjoy.

(I would prefer that this part of the mission be graded now, while I still have most of the raw footage.)

(Watching this at 2x is really fun)

Edited October 2, 2014 by Thunderous Echo

[Thunderous Echo]

I'm going to start deleting footage in 19 hours, so please have everything you need by then.

[Ziv]

I'm going to start deleting footage in 19 hours, so please have everything you need by then.

Nice go to Moho and funny sliding on the Mun! What do you mean by "have everything you need"? This doesn't have anything to do with the JOOL-5 challenge.

[Lack]

Yeah, maybe I would just disqualify somebody if would use the 'Bonny' for space travel, hehe.

I'm experimenting with the small jet and that's incredible that I can easily have 200'000 m/s dV on some drops of fuel... so this makes small planes go forever. I think TWR doesn't count much at jets, this small engine with 10 thrust is enough to push a normal plane up. But what I experienced is that it's not enough to gain high speeds at high altitudes so it's not so easy to leave the atmosphere with this, and this is good.

I also made a little plane with 'Bonny' and the jet and what I found is that there's no good-looking small fuel tank, only the Oscar-B which looks bad on the plane.

And I was saying it's still pre-release because there were some parts like a black block between the pods, or a huge "crew tank" full of fuel... and sometimes the part descripitions had only the path for the file...

I would be happy to test all of your parts, let me know where can I give you feedbacks!

Thanks! I'd welcome your feedback, you're generally pretty thorough. My addonDev or release threads would probably be the best places to post stuff, addonDev thread tends to get more traffic.

It's sort of rolling development really, add new stuff, release it, then go back and fix problems (or more often than not, getting bored and moving onto something new and shiny).

Yeah, I think it's not that the jet is unbalanced, it's just better fit for the job than the massive over-kill of the stock jet and turbo-jet. Still haven't got round to making a better little fuel tank, I've taken a few goes at it, but never got something that has a suitably visible difference to the 1.25m (same with a 2.5m fueslage). Been waiting till Squad releases 0.25 with the new assets, since I'll have to re-do a lot of SXT anyway.

Heh, missed the Space 2001 reference . That fuel tank the 'LK-S3E' 5m Habitat? The fuel capacity is accounted for in the internal space and weight, but it was mainly because I got annoyed at having to fit external fuel tanks for descent engines. It's based off one of the Mars base lander plans floating around somewhere. Never seen anyone actually use it though. Part descriptions are currently rolling job, I've had a few people offer to help with it, but I've never heard back from them.

[Ziv]

Finally my entry is ready. Here is the album again. (Warning: Easter Egg Spoilers!)

http://imgur.com/a/h5oqb

Please have a look at my lander. There is some clipping going on and i don't want to cheat. Unfortunately i didn't read the instructions carefully enough to realize that you don't want clipping at all. When i finally did, it was too late since the mission was already half way through.

That aside, the mission was successfully completed and 17372 science points earned. Here is he additional info you asked for:

- Which game versions did you use?

0.24

- What mods did you use, if any?

FAR+DRE, Spaceplane+. Information Mods: Engineer, RCS Build Aid, NRAP Test weights, Kerbal Flight Data, Kerbal Flight Indicators, Precise Node, Docking Port Alignment Indicators, Kerbal Alarm Clock.

- How many launches was needed to start your mission from Kerbal?

4

- How many refueling did you do during the mission, how much and where?

I didn't refuel. In fact the ship had so much fuel that i dumped fuel by the end of the mission.

- Did you bring a Living Quarter (Hitch-hiker's Storage) for the guys during the long journey?

Yes!

- Did you bring additional stuff like satellites, rovers, etc?

No. But i ran a ScanSat mission before to find the anomalies.

- Share the delta-V informations too, if you tracked it!

I didn't track it in detail. Some figures can be taken from the

screenshots i guess. But the main ship hat around 8 km/s DV when

it left Kerbin orbit. This doesn't account for the ditching of

various stages though. So effecively it was even more than that.

DaMichel: Congratulations, you have finished the JOOL-5 Challenge on Jebediah's Level!

Yeah, I saw you clipped the tanks somewhat but let's say it's still within the rules, that doesn't look so bad. I checked the fuel amount and it shows that there are no hidden or other fuel tanks, so it's all right.

I like how you used the SpacePlane Plus cargo bay at your Laythe plane, pointed towards the ground with Jet engines for VTOL mode and also hiding the science instruments, thats good and pretty creative! Nice one with Jool atmosphere too but that's a pity that you didn't clean all instruments.

And your Tylo lander is really creative too! I didn't see anything like that before. And that's fun how later the Kerbal sees the whole rocket from the seat.

And nice commenting on the pictures throughout the mission! Well done, thank you for participating!

Edited October 2, 2014 by Ziv

[DaMichel]

Thanks! I will proudly carry the Jool5 badge in my sig.

I didn't fly a spaceplane on Laythe until this challenge, so the mission was sort of built around the plane which was made before any other considerations.

So, to compensate for the bulky plane, the lander had to be light. I made many variants and this was the best, obviously. I made some nuclear landers at first, but i couldn't get them right because the LV-N are so lenghy and have so low TWR, too. Probably just a matter of me being n00bish there . On the other hand i like that now all my crew space is well shielded from the nuclear engines, which is a nice bonus from the realism point of view

Edited October 2, 2014 by DaMichel

[Thunderous Echo]

Ah, okay, you only want the Jool-5 stuff. Alright.

I can still post the non-Jool-5 videos here though, right?

[Teutooni]

First off, this is not an entry into the competition. I used at least 2 illegal mods (interstellar up to fusion, infernal robotics). I don't think this would be possible with the allowed mods for this challenge (you are more than welcome to prove me wrong). This was just for the hell of it. In short: One launch from KSC, land the same vehicle on all planets, and land on KSC.

Mission report:

http://imgur.com/a/kDLEc

http://imgur.com/a/SLJEy

http://imgur.com/a/mSmcg

enjoy!

[Laie]

That Tylo lander is indeed pretty creative. Idea stolen, rep given, and everyone just look at that:

http://imgur.com/a/h5oqb#50

[Ziv]

Ah, okay, you only want the Jool-5 stuff. Alright.

I can still post the non-Jool-5 videos here though, right?

Of course, if you don't flood the forum! I'm sure many people is interested in Grand Tour Missions!

And link here all the videos together when you finished the mission, and I will review the JOOL-5 part of it.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Ziv

[Ziv]

First off, this is not an entry into the competition. I used at least 2 illegal mods (interstellar up to fusion, infernal robotics). I don't think this would be possible with the allowed mods for this challenge (you are more than welcome to prove me wrong). This was just for the hell of it. In short: One launch from KSC, land the same vehicle on all planets, and land on KSC.

Mission report:

http://imgur.com/a/kDLEc

http://imgur.com/a/SLJEy

http://imgur.com/a/mSmcg

enjoy!

Yeah, with fusion interstellar the JOOL-5 becomes a Sunday picnic here and there.

"I don't think this would be possible with the allowed mods for this challenge (you are more than welcome to prove me wrong)."

What do you mean?

[parzr]

Yeah, with fusion interstellar the JOOL-5 becomes a Sunday picnic here and there.

"I don't think this would be possible with the allowed mods for this challenge (you are more than welcome to prove me wrong)."

What do you mean?

I know, right. not to disparage your attempt, even modded it's quite an accomplishment; as Ziv said on his OP.

But said OP also has the hall of fame with my single launch that just shed fuel, tanks and pounds to get home landing a science lab and hitch-hikers on all moons and back to KSC. No parts mods used.

granted it was large, since then I could do it for a third the weight of that attempt.

Yours does look real cool

Edited October 3, 2014 by parzr

[DaMichel]

First off, this is not an entry into the competition. I used at least 2 illegal mods (interstellar up to fusion, infernal robotics). I don't think this would be possible with the allowed mods for this challenge (you are more than welcome to prove me wrong). This was just for the hell of it. In short: One launch from KSC, land the same vehicle on all planets, and land on KSC.

...

Thanks for showing. The design of this craft is very nice and you brought a little rover, too. I'm sure it wasn't easy to build despite the OP'ed engines. I totally like it. Also the mod usage with FAR and the life support stuff.

But may i ask how you built the VTOL engines? It looks like you might have used IR to make them steerable but i don't recognize the parts they are embedded in. Moreover, what are the actual VTOL engines, Aerospikes?

[Teutooni]

Yeah, with fusion interstellar the JOOL-5 becomes a Sunday picnic here and there.

"I don't think this would be possible with the allowed mods for this challenge (you are more than welcome to prove me wrong)."

What do you mean?

Thing about fusion engines is that they have abysmal TWR, they can barely lift themselves up - 1.84 TWR for just the engine with liquid fuel, bit higher for other fuels. And that is not counting generators, reactor fuel tanks, propellant tanks, auxiliary reactors needed for restarting them, heat radiators, etc. Try landing on Tylo with 1.0-1.2 TWR (relative to Tylo). Not exactly a sunday picnic. I think the ISRU refinery was much more "cheaty", and that is a technology they are actually planning for mars missions.

I mean I don't think it is possible to build a plane with stocklike engines that goes to all the moons without staging at least some fuel tanks off or something. The point was to bring the entire craft back, in a more or less reusable state. (With my landing clearly less ) Would be absolutely fascinating to see someone be able to do it though.

@DaMichel - http://imgur.com/a6edEPU

Stock aerospikes, mounted downwards in one of the B9 cargobays so it opens and closes. Some of my IR mounted VTOL designs had problems with FAR aerodynamics, they would sometimes just fail inside a closed cargobay, which was strange.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Teutooni

[Overfloater]

fuel tanks, engines and pods cannot clip each other, that's the most important thing. So if you have a small fuel tank under the probe core (on which sits the chair) then it's not okay, otherwise the chair hiding inside the decoupler is all right.

There isn't a fuel tank inside the fuel tank, if that's what you thought I meant! O_O

I was trying to explain why the probe core looks as it is slightly sunken into the central tank.

But never mind that, I decided to go for a new design with a big, enclosed cozy capsule.

I don't know what I was thinking, making another one of those chair-rockets... xD

The Eve ascent vehicle works perfectly, all that is left is to test the Eve transfer drive.

[kookoo_gr]

One more question for Ziv. For the grand tour, when i start the challenge do i need to have connected all the ships in a big one? I want to reduce lag and not to fry my pc.

This is what i mean. In order to reduce lag I will launch the Jool-5 drive and landers in two separate launches and dock them in orbit, at a later point another lander will dock at this ship, the Dres/Duna lander when it finishes its mission from Dres/Duna. After the Jool-5 gets into orbit and construction is finished, i will launch the Moho and Eve mission to orbit followed by the Ders/Duna mission. When all the ships/landers are in orbit from Kerbin the mission will start and i will start going to other planets and finishing with the Jool-5 tour in one ship, until then i will not go to any planets. The extra difficulty in this profile is that by having 3-4 large ships i will have to find an effective way to transport my 5 Kerbals from one mothership to another in Kerbin orbit. Is this mission profile ok?

Edited October 3, 2014 by kookoo_gr

[ElWanderer]

My mission may not be proceeding according to plan, but at least it is proceeding - I have landed on Tylo and returned to orbit. It 'only' took seven attempts and a 1750m/s diversion of my mothership...

One calculation I apparently failed to perform beforehand was the delta-v of my nuclear tug with the lander, a probe *and the massive Tylo descent stage* attached (500m/s rather than the 2000m/s I expected, which is the figure without the descent stage). It used nearly all its fuel getting into a highly elliptical 5000km by 22km orbit, with the added problem that the closest approach always seemed to be in the middle of the dark side. After two failed attempts I redirected my mothership from stable Jool orbit to Tylo, rendezvoused at a sensible, circular orbit, refueled and gave it another go.

Attempt #1 didn't realise how early I would need to burn. Hit ground at roughly 1km/s. Exploded.

Attempt #2 hit ground at roughly 500m/s. Exploded.

Attempt #3 beautiful descent until the fuel ran out a few hundred metres up. Exploded.

Attempt #4 hit ground too quickly. Exploded.

Attempt #5 landed gently but too much horizontal velocity. Fell over, exploded (partially - Kerbal survived but marooned)

Attempt #6 hit ground too quickly. Descent stage engines exploded and most of the landing legs snapped, but everything else was intact... until I decoupled the lander before running up its engines. It slid off sideways, flipped over and powered into the ground (somehow the pod and Kerbal survived). Exploded.

Attempt #7 textbook landing and mostly textbook ascent to 80km by 80km orbit (should've been 30by30 as that's where the tug was). Based on fuel usage, it took 3150m/s to land and 2700m/s to take off. No explosions.

I've also landed my spaceplane on Laythe. The rest of the mission should be relatively easy, right?!

[Ziv]

One more question for Ziv. For the grand tour, when i start the challenge do i need to have connected all the ships in a big one? I want to reduce lag and not to fry my pc.

This is what i mean. In order to reduce lag I will launch the Jool-5 drive and landers in two separate launches and dock them in orbit, at a later point another lander will dock at this ship, the Dres/Duna lander when it finishes its mission from Dres/Duna. After the Jool-5 gets into orbit and construction is finished, i will launch the Moho and Eve mission to orbit followed by the Ders/Duna mission. When all the ships/landers are in orbit from Kerbin the mission will start and i will start going to other planets and finishing with the Jool-5 tour in one ship, until then i will not go to any planets. The extra difficulty in this profile is that by having 3-4 large ships i will have to find an effective way to transport my 5 Kerbals from one mothership to another in Kerbin orbit. Is this mission profile ok?

I appreciate every complex and well-planned mission so in special cases like a Grand Tour so I may get over some rule a little bit. Basically it was created to avoid missions where they find out that their ship/lander is not capable to perform a landing/ascent somewhere so they want to send a bigger one from Kerbin... that way JOOL-5 could become a "trial and error" style mission which wouldn't be good, because I would like this mission to be something like a "real life" mission where you can't do too much after sending out the ships and Kerbals... I already allowed one refueling mission which makes it already easier.

So a Grand Tour is always appreciated and they need to be well-planned anyway. (But sending some separated ships into LKO and, for example, one ship goes to Moho and Eve, and the other to the outer planets and they never meet is not a real Grand Tour in my opinion, or if two separated crew do the landings. It's still a big achievement but I would miss the connection between them and feel like they were two or more separated mission...)

[Ziv]

Thing about fusion engines is that they have abysmal TWR, they can barely lift themselves up - 1.84 TWR for just the engine with liquid fuel, bit higher for other fuels. And that is not counting generators, reactor fuel tanks, propellant tanks, auxiliary reactors needed for restarting them, heat radiators, etc. Try landing on Tylo with 1.0-1.2 TWR (relative to Tylo). Not exactly a sunday picnic. I think the ISRU refinery was much more "cheaty", and that is a technology they are actually planning for mars missions.

I mean I don't think it is possible to build a plane with stocklike engines that goes to all the moons without staging at least some fuel tanks off or something. The point was to bring the entire craft back, in a more or less reusable state. (With my landing clearly less ) Would be absolutely fascinating to see someone be able to do it though.

@DaMichel - http://imgur.com/a6edEPU

Stock aerospikes, mounted downwards in one of the B9 cargobays so it opens and closes. Some of my IR mounted VTOL designs had problems with FAR aerodynamics, they would sometimes just fail inside a closed cargobay, which was strange.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, making a JOOL-5 always takes time and skill, even with let's say fuel cheating. So I appreciate your mission and checking it again I liked some of your solution. (at first I just took a glance at it)

So, sorry if I was too harsh at first. And I don't really know Interstellar so maybe it's not so easy to make it work as it seems at first.

Btw I already landed on Tylo with a 1.0-1.2 TWR lander so yeah, I know, it's a long hard road down there, and you need luck too to avoid high mountains at the end.

In my own list the biggest achievement what I did was to land on Duna and getting back to space with an ion lander which had a TWR lower than 1.0. The trick was that I braked to zero very high above the highest point which was high enough that a 0.97 TWR was enough for a stable slow descent, and enough for a very slow but sure ascent. It was very easy to overspeed and crash (more than 10 m/s in the last km ). I was trying the best path/speeds for hours to make it right at the end, and I spent 4000+ m/s for landing and getting back. Good ol' times!

And yeah, I agree, it must be impossible to make an SSTO, I mean Single Stage to JOOL-5 (SSTJ5) with the allowed mod. Kasuha already made it with a spaceplane, that was something too!