[1.12.X] RealChute Parachute Systems v1.4.8.3 | 24/01/21

[stupid_chris]

12 hours ago, Dodge said:

I see, just to clarify a little: the issue happens regardless of KCT's existence or not, it is  just that I think this is still related to KCT/Srapyard having issue recognizing the part. I wonder this could manifest in many other ways as well.

If you can reproduce this on a new save with only RC installed I'll gladly take a log and take a look if it's simple enough to fix in RC1. RC2 is still in the works, so I'm not going into big RC1 fixes atm.

[Dodge]

Thanks a lot!

I did a fresh install, it turns out to be a problem only when I open the editor after recovery, so I lied, I thought this has nothing to do with KCT since I saw the error during KSP load. Something must have changed. I asked for some help in ScrapYard,  hopefully, there is solution forward. Really liked your mod nevertheless, sorry for the misinformation.

 

[Gordon Dry]

There is an issue with a specific parachute that is attached to a node inside a BDB Mercury Command capsule's Recovery Module. Could be a collider issue that already makes it impossible to grab the parachute in VAB anymore - the mod "Part Wizard" has to be used.

The issue here is that the parachute never deploys, as if something hampers it.

See https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/issues/1136

[NewsDude]

Has RealChute 2 come out yet?

[Brigadier]

3 hours ago, NewsDude said:

Has RealChute 2 come out yet?

No

[adriangm44]

Hello guys! 
I’m having an issue with this mod. Well, it’s not exactly an issue, it works as it should.

When a parachute is clipped inside another part, if you try to deploy it, it will tell you it failed and a message will pop up saying it’s “Inside a fairing” which is totally fine and would be quite unrealistic that they could actually be armed like that .

The problem comes when I want to use the SpaceX pod from Tundra Exploration. It has no working parachutes on it’s own and the actual craft files given by the morder come with clipped in parachutes, which they will never work with this mod.

I love both mods, and I need a way of making this one to bypass the fairing shielding check.

Is there I can modify the code to myself? Which lines and what program?

Thank you very much everyone!

[Kinniken]

Hi all, I'm trying to use this mod to slow down an descent to Mars in RSS (with SMURF, not RP0). From what I've read here and there it should be possible to use drogues to slow down till something like 200 m/s, then do a powered descent for the rest.

No matter what I try, I can't get drogues or drag chutes to help with the initial speed. I'm coming down from LMO (150 km), meaning I start with a dv of around 3500 m/s. Even kevlar drogues burn up before I'm down to 100 km altitude, and at that point I've barely slowed. And I am trying this with a very shallow angle... my initial pe is at 110 km. Any suggestions? Did I misunderstand and it's just not possible to use chutes for this?

My lander is a crewed lander with enough fuel to return to orbit, so it's fairly heavy, around 15 tons IIRC.

Thanks!

[mateusviccari]

40 minutes ago, Kinniken said:

Hi all, I'm trying to use this mod to slow down an descent to Mars in RSS (with SMURF, not RP0). From what I've read here and there it should be possible to use drogues to slow down till something like 200 m/s, then do a powered descent for the rest.

No matter what I try, I can't get drogues or drag chutes to help with the initial speed. I'm coming down from LMO (150 km), meaning I start with a dv of around 3500 m/s. Even kevlar drogues burn up before I'm down to 100 km altitude, and at that point I've barely slowed. And I am trying this with a very shallow angle... my initial pe is at 110 km. Any suggestions? Did I misunderstand and it's just not possible to use chutes for this?

My lander is a crewed lander with enough fuel to return to orbit, so it's fairly heavy, around 15 tons IIRC.

Thanks!

It's quite simple actually... do not circularize before entering mars' atmosphere. Enter directly from earth-mars transfer orbit. That way you remain longer in the upper atmosphere and you can safely deploy your parachutes at reasonably high altitude with a relatively slow speed. The entry periapsis altitude depends on the mass of the craft and the size of the heat shield. But I would say go between 30 and 50km and you should be fine. 

To test using the cheat menu put yourself in a highly elliptical orbit (almost escape velocity) using infinite fuel, then decrease the periapsis to test the reentry, it should give you a fairly good approximation of a trans-martian reentry trajectory. 

[Kinniken]

@mateusviccari I've tried that, coming in from 200 000 km, at a speed of around 4500 m/s. It only makes things worse, which doesn't surprise me - for the same pe, I'm bound to have a steeper angle of entry if coming from further away, no?

[Kinniken]

Finally managed it, with more drogue chutes (12 realchute stack chutes, 4 Mk16 XL, all kelvar drogue chutes set to open at 125 km, for a craft with a mass of 13 tons) and a very very shallow approach : from an orbit at 130 km with an initial pe of only 120 km. Turns out that it's enough to stop, going around halfway across Mars from the point of entry in the atmosphere.

[mateusviccari]

On 2/17/2022 at 3:36 PM, Kinniken said:

Finally managed it, with more drogue chutes (12 realchute stack chutes, 4 Mk16 XL, all kelvar drogue chutes set to open at 125 km, for a craft with a mass of 13 tons) and a very very shallow approach : from an orbit at 130 km with an initial pe of only 120 km. Turns out that it's enough to stop, going around halfway across Mars from the point of entry in the atmosphere.

Good thing you managed it. That is a very strange approach though, I don't think IRL we would deploy chutes that high up in the atmosphere. I tried it today with a lander of about 20 tons, only two drogue chutes,  periapsis of 60km and using the 10m inflatable heat shield to help with initial drag.  At ~15Km with a speed of ~1600m/s, the heat shield was ejected and a retrograde burn of ~500m/s was performed to get to a safe drogue deploy altitude. Engine was cutoff as soon as the drogues where activated. Full drogue deploy occurred at an altitude of 2500m. Main engine ignited at an altitude of 500m to prepare for the final landing. The drogue chutes where auto cut-off at 100m above the ground, where the final landing was completed solely with the main engine. Fuel remaining was enough to get back to a 250km orbit and dock to the mother-ship with a safe spare margin.

There might be more efficient ways, but realistically speaking, I think it's a pretty standard descent approach.

[DeliriumTrigger]

Hi, I have some feedback about RealChutes and suggestions for RealChutes 2, if you're receptive to it.  If not, feel free to skip this comment and move right along, as it's just my opinions and observations.

There are some things about this mod that I really like.  Presets for planets, awesome.  More granular control over deployment, awesome.  Combo chutes are great, especially the way they're implemented in SDHI Service Module, love it.  Drag chutes too.   A lot of these things are valuable additions to the game,  so I hope you'll consider my feedback as an effort to highlight ways that would make this mod more pleasant to use, and not as me just crapping all over your work.   Because I do appreciate it, and the fact that you've taken a sizable portion of your free time to create it and offer it to everyone free of charge, even if it's not currently for me.    I want to use it and not be frustrated.

I'm frustrated with this mod for the reasons I'll outline below, but I want to present this in as constructive a manner as I can.  If some of my frustration comes through and I fall short at being as tactful as I hope to be, I apologize for that.  There's no easy way to say "here's stuff I don't like and think should be improved" without saying the "here's stuff I don't like" part.   It's not personal or some comment on your abilities as a creator.  It's just my experience using this mod as an end user. 

I find the user experience of this mod to be something I would call hostile in the ergonomic sense.  Perhaps this wasn't the case back when the mod was designed, or maybe there are design constraints that I don't know about.  But my experience with this mod is that I never go out of my way to install it, and that's a shame, because as I said there's a lot here to like.  It gets flagged as a dependency by CKAN, and then I hem and haw over whether I want to deal with RealChutes or go without the mod that depends on it.   

If it's getting flagged as a dependency for me, then it's happening for others, and presumably at least some people are installing this mod with no understanding of what it actually does: Completely overhauling the expected behavior of parachutes, which in many ways is a good thing, and changing the way you interface with the settings of parachutes to something that throws out established conventions of the KSP user interface, which in many ways is not.   

And yes, that's on them.  RTFM.   But this mod offers a lot of awesome stuff, and could be so much better if it just behaved in obvious and convention following ways.  It doesn't.  As a result, at best it's awkward to use and at worst it's incredibly frustrating.

To my point then.   The settings for parachutes being in the action groups menu...  I can sort of see the logic behind this, since the deployment of a parachute is an action... I guess?  And since "Automatically arm parachutes on staging" is a option in the toolbar button on the KSC scene, maybe it's a design choice to have users assigning the arming of parachutes to action groups, which is why it's put in there? 

Regardless, it is hiding something that is typically found in a context menu in a place that is not obvious and doesn't follow conventions at all.  Literally every part in the stock game is configured in the VAB build screen by right clicking directly on the part and using that context menu.  And while I haven't used every mod, most if not all of the ones I have used (which is a lot) follow this convention, except RealChutes.  If a mod has configuration options that would overwhelm that context menu, there is typically a button on the context menu that you click, and then a new menu opens with the configuration options you need.     

If including the configuration on the right click context menu is too constraining or not possible due to technical constraints, there is a toolbar right there in the default VAB view where a RealChutes icon could be to open the configuration screen for chutes.  It still doesn't follow the convention, but at least it would be a button with a parachute on it in an obvious place that doesn't require you to switch out of build mode.

The action groups menu is a menu that many people playing a career mode have no reason to even click on until well beyond the point that they need parachutes, because unless they choose the option to make action groups always available they have to unlock that functionality, and there's little to do in there before that point.   And it's just not where you go, in any other context, to do configuration of parts.  You configure the parts in the regular VAB build view, and then you go into the action groups menu to assign those parts to hotkeys.  Unless you use RealChutes.

That the place to configure Realchutes isn't immediately obvious would be a minor problem if it just added separate chutes that rely on this system and left the stock system alone, but it's compounded by the fact that RealChutes completely takes over all parachutes.  There is no more stock behavior, only RealChutes.   Sometimes that's nice to have, like for drag chutes, or dialing in parachutes to work on Eve.  But sometimes you just want an Mk16 to behave like a stock Mk16 without all the extra steps.  It would be great if RealChutes were RealChutes and stock chutes were stock chutes.  And if that's not possible for technical reasons, then it would be good if the mod tried to emulate default stock behavior on the changed stock parts as closely as possible.  

The most obvious example of this is that the default behavior of parachutes with RealChutes is installed is to not deploy "when safe" like the stock system.   Which in effect means that any parachute in the game that you didn't configure through the aforementioned unconventional method will be ripped off by aero forces if you arm it before entering atmosphere, unless you fiddle with the settings in flight.  From a user experience standpoint it has been an endless source of frustration.  It just makes way more sense to just have RealChutes default to stock-like behavior,  at least on the 'stock' parachutes if the mod is going to take over every parachute in the game. 

I've been using this mod off and on since 1.2.2 or something like that, and I still forget to go into the action groups menu and configure my parachutes, because this mod is the only mod that makes you go in there to configure it.   I forget, and then I arm the Mk16 on a returning science probe before it hits atmosphere because because the antenna could rip off on re-entry, only to watch the parachutes deploy super early and get ripped off by aero forces and all my science go to waste because the Mk16 no longer performs like a stock Mk16.   That's fine if I'm playing a game with reverts and quicksaves, but I've had it happen in a hard mode save more than once.   I can't be the only one.   To call it frustrating would be an understatement, especially when I realize why I forgot.  Because the parachute looks stock, but instead of behaving like stock, it's different.  To configure it to behave like stock, I have to go to the configuration menu that has decided for whatever reason to throw out over 10 years of established convention and hide in the action groups menu.  It doesn't feel like I made a mistake, it feels like I'm being punished for using this mod and not remembering to jump through its odd and counter-intuitive hoops.  

The OP of this thread says "If you don't want to use the editor panel, you really don't have to. There is a preset system."   That's not really true.   You do have to find the editor pane and use it to set the presets, so either way you're using the editor panel, which again, is hidden in a non-intuitive place. You can ignore it if you're using the option to arm when staged, or are going to right-click on it in flight and deploy, but you must do this if you need to or prefer to arm your parachutes before entering the atmosphere, unless you want to do it in flight.  

The editor menu, presets or not, is not simple.  It's tedious and time wasting.  The presets don't stick so that the next time you grab the same parachute from the parts list and drag it on to a vessel it has the same settings.  They don't even stick if you select a preset for a parachute, go back to build, then alt-click the parachute you set up and make a copy of it to put somewhere else, another UX convention that is disregarded.   If I could select a preset on the context menu in a similar way to how I select the contents of a tank or a livery, this wouldn't be as much of an issue.  Instead I have to go into the action groups menu every single time I place a parachute.  Or hope I remember every parachute, including the one on the drone that is nested inside of both a cargo bay and a fairing, when I go into the action groups menu to configure all the parachutes once I'm done building everything.

If there are technical obstacles or design decisions in the way of some of these things, I can understand that.  But the confluence of all of these things is jarring, off putting, and frustrating to me.  Maybe I'm just not the intended audience, and these things are all the design vision, as intended, and if that's the case then that's okay.  But I feel like RealChutes would totally be a must-have on my modlist if even some of these things were different.

To summarize, the changes I'm suggesting for the next version of RealChutes:

• Make the CKAN description, well, more descriptive.   It says your mod "fixes a few inconveniences" and also "completely reworks" the stock parachute system.  These two statements are at odds with each other.  When I read "Fixes a few inconveniences" I think small changes.   When I read "Complete rework" I think big changes.  This mod makes big changes.  Sure, it does fix a few inconveniences, but putting that in the description is almost a red herring.  People installing a mod that changes this much stuff should know what they're getting into.  Managing expectations matters.
• Follow established KSP UX conventions wherever possible and move configuration of parachutes to the context menu, or a submenu that can be opened from the context menu.  At the very least put the basics there (min pressure/altitude) like stock does.
• If the above is not possible for technical reasons, at least put the configuration in an obvious place, like in a menu that pops up when you click on a parachute icon on the toolbar while in the Build menu, where you are when you configure everything else.  Not hidden in the Action Groups Menu where literally no other part in the game is configured, so that you must go outside of the game and read a forum post to figure out where it is. 
• Make RealChutes an add-on, with complete replacement of the stock parachute system opt-in, so that you can choose a RealChute in the size you need if you actually want the extra options that RealChute provides, or a boring old stock Mk16 if you just want boring old stock behavior without having to configure stuff.
• If the above is not possible for technical reasons, then make the default behavior of all the RealChute-changed stock parachutes like the Mk16 as close to stock as possible, without requiring the user to change a preset.  Meaning they default to deploy "when safe" like stock when armed, min pressure at 0.04atm instead of 0.01atm, and altitude at 1000m instead of 700m.  
• Allow users to choose a preset and have it stay as the default, or copy a configured parachute and have the settings copied as well.  If I'm using 6 parachutes on 3 stages that are all going to be dropped in Kerbin's atmosphere during the launch sequence, having to configure each parachute individually is unnecessary tedium.

If you've read all of this and given it fair consideration, even if you disagree with it in whole or in part, I thank you for your time.  I'm looking forward to RealChutes 2 and hope to include it in my modlist.  Thanks.

[eightiesboi]

@DeliriumTriggerraises some great points (and extra kudos for being respectful, clear, and comprehensive). I am a bit opposite from DT (hope you don't mind the abbreviation) in that I always install RealChutes in every career playthrough. However, I also go into the config files outside the game and change the presets there, as well as a couple of actions to make my life a bit easier. What this says to me, is that although I have a workaround, the fact that I do this every time means that the default configuration doesn't work well for me (emphasis on "for me"; YMMV). I agree that the User Experience could be made better in RC2, assuming that it is technically feasible and that @stupid_chrisso chooses. 

This is a great mod that has made my game qualitatively better. I appreciate all of the work SC has done and generously shared with the community. And I also think that DT has made some great suggestions worthy of consideration. 

[stupid_chris]

On 4/27/2022 at 3:46 AM, DeliriumTrigger said:

To my point then.   The settings for parachutes being in the action groups menu...  I can sort of see the logic behind this, since the deployment of a parachute is an action... I guess?  And since "Automatically arm parachutes on staging" is a option in the toolbar button on the KSC scene, maybe it's a design choice to have users assigning the arming of parachutes to action groups, which is why it's put in there? 

Since this seems to be your biggest gripe with the mod, I'll address it clearly.

This behaviour is a leftover from the state of the game when RealChute was created. There was no tweakables, no toolbar, and no part-context menu for modifications in the editor. This mod is old. RealChute part modifications came around in January 2014. The game was in an awfully different state back then, and I was also a very different programmer. The action groups was probably the best bet at the time. It made sense, and it worked well for the systems we had.

Granted this makes no sense today, but extracting the UI code is not an easy task, and not worth it.

UI behaviour will be completely different in RealChute 2, I can promise that. Given that, I will not address this point further.

On 4/27/2022 at 3:46 AM, DeliriumTrigger said:

• Make the CKAN description, well, more descriptive.   It says your mod "fixes a few inconveniences" and also "completely reworks" the stock parachute system.  These two statements are at odds with each other.  When I read "Fixes a few inconveniences" I think small changes.   When I read "Complete rework" I think big changes.  This mod makes big changes.  Sure, it does fix a few inconveniences, but putting that in the description is almost a red herring.  People installing a mod that changes this much stuff should know what they're getting into.  Managing expectations matters.

I don't own the CKAN listing.

On 4/27/2022 at 3:46 AM, DeliriumTrigger said:

• Make RealChutes an add-on, with complete replacement of the stock parachute system opt-in, so that you can choose a RealChute in the size you need if you actually want the extra options that RealChute provides, or a boring old stock Mk16 if you just want boring old stock behavior without having to configure stuff.

This is already the case. RealChute overrides stock through MM. Remove the MM configuration files from the mod folder and stock behaviour will return.

On 4/27/2022 at 3:46 AM, DeliriumTrigger said:

• Allow users to choose a preset and have it stay as the default, or copy a configured parachute and have the settings copied as well.  If I'm using 6 parachutes on 3 stages that are all going to be dropped in Kerbin's atmosphere during the launch sequence, having to configure each parachute individually is unnecessary tedium.

This point is not worth discussing much because of how different RealChute 2 will be.

 

In summary, if you don't like the mod, don't use it. If you like it, have fun. I'm very indifferent to it I'll admit, I work(ed) on this because I wanted to see it fixed, the community enjoying it is a secondary effect really.

[mikegarrison]

I consider this mod a "must-have". I am continually reminded of how terrible certain aspects of KSP are when I play with stock chutes and have to just guess how many parachutes I need to slap onto a ship in order for it to survive.

I guess it's because I started playing so long ago, but I never learned to rely on just triggering the chutes while I was still in space and letting them autodeploy "when safe". That option didn't used to exist for stock, so it never became a habit for me to unlearn. I actually find the Real Chute way better and easier. All I have to do is watch the re-entry until I get to a safe speed for the drogue, and then hit the button. After that it's all automatic -- first the drogue, then the transfer to the mains, and then the touchdown.

The user interface for Real Chute is pretty clunky, but I'm well aware of how old it is, and I'm just glad @stupid_chris has kept this mod alive all these years. Expecting it to follow "KSP UX conventions" is like complaining about code that was written in 1975 not being done in Python.

[Padrone]

22 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

I consider this mod a "must-have".......

...... and I'm just glad @stupid_chris has kept this mod alive all these years. ...

Saved me from typing up similar sentiments.  Thank you, and thanks to @stupid_chris for this mod and keeping it alive!

 

[AntiMatter001]

sorry for being stupid,

also love the mod to bits. accidentally put on the april fools joke on my friends save and watched him try to debug parachutes going mach 4 for no reason and laughing my ass off.

but i used to be able to configure novapunches and other parachutes the same way but recently only stock and RC parachutes seem to be editable.


i'm wondering if im missing a MM patch or if CKAN doesn't come packaged with that

[stupid_chris]

3 hours ago, AntiMatter001 said:

but i used to be able to configure novapunches and other parachutes the same way but recently only stock and RC parachutes seem to be editable.

i'm wondering if im missing a MM patch or if CKAN doesn't come packaged with that

There is no included NovaPunch MM patch

[AntiMatter001]

1 hour ago, stupid_chris said:

There is no included NovaPunch MM patch

alright thatnks, kinda figured. i'm racking my brain trying to remember how i got realchute values into other parachute mods.

[Bandus]

Greetings! I realize I am probably missing or misunderstanding something, however, I noticed the chutes don't arm on staging. I did some research and found there is an option for this, however, when I attempt to click the radio button in RealChute config that reads: "Automatically arm when staging" it will not turn on. I went so far as to attempt to edit the RealChute_Settings.cfg and change autoArm = False to autoArm = True and it forced it back to false.  All of the other options seem to activate/deactivate as expected.

Is someone able to tell me what I am missing?

[Starwaster]

30 minutes ago, Bandus said:

Greetings! I realize I am probably missing or misunderstanding something, however, I noticed the chutes don't arm on staging. I did some research and found there is an option for this, however, when I attempt to click the radio button in RealChute config that reads: "Automatically arm when staging" it will not turn on. I went so far as to attempt to edit the RealChute_Settings.cfg and change autoArm = False to autoArm = True and it forced it back to false.  All of the other options seem to activate/deactivate as expected.

Is someone able to tell me what I am missing?

Do it from the RealChutes menu from the space center screen.  

[Bandus]

14 hours ago, Starwaster said:

Do it from the RealChutes menu from the space center screen.  

That is precisely where I am attempting to do it from in this case. The radio button simply refuses to "activate."

[Starwaster]

1 hour ago, Bandus said:

That is precisely where I am attempting to do it from in this case. The radio button simply refuses to "activate."

Hmmmm not sure what’s going on and I don’t think I can’t be of further help as my PC is out of action until my new power supply arrives. 

[msp307]

Hello, I have a problem with this mod. when starting the game it always depends on the parts i have configured - RO. 
I took out all my configurations and now the game hangs on loading on all parts of RealChute. does anyone know why?

Edited September 18, 2022 by msp307

[Fr8monkey]

Playing in 1.10 and get a 'real chutes not recognized by unity' message while loading.