stupid_chris

[1.3] RealChute Parachute Systems v1.4.4 | 01/06/17

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Anyone else having issues with the RC icon not appearing again after the initial game load?

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Hi Chris, I always install your mod.

However, at the moment (at least the large) radial chutes are behaving weird in main chute mode: adding more than a few (about one for each two tons) actually increases the minimum touch-down speed. So, if those few aren't cutting it, you cannot decrease the touch-down speed by adding more chutes.

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Any word on the chute for kerbals yet?

screenshot_2015_05_06_01_40_09.jpg

Really wanted to take this jump, making the descent a whole lot easier xD

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Anyone else having issues with the RC icon not appearing again after the initial game load?
Hi Chris, I always install your mod.

However, at the moment (at least the large) radial chutes are behaving weird in main chute mode: adding more than a few (about one for each two tons) actually increases the minimum touch-down speed. So, if those few aren't cutting it, you cannot decrease the touch-down speed by adding more chutes.

Both issues are very unclear.

Any word on the chute for kerbals yet?

http://s26.postimg.org/eq8vknxth/screenshot_2015_05_06_01_40_09.jpg

Really wanted to take this jump, making the descent a whole lot easier xD

2.0. It'll be Soonâ„¢

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Both issues are very unclear.

2.0. It'll be Soonâ„¢

:sticktongue::confused: (merge emojis) "It will be soon" trademark XD

@ at the toolbar icon issue, It might an DDS thing, have you guys used DDS converter to manually convert some stuff?

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:sticktongue::confused: (merge emojis) "It will be soon" trademark XD

@ at the toolbar icon issue, It might an DDS thing, have you guys used DDS converter to manually convert some stuff?

Icons are still png, so it shouldn't be an issue.

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Icons are still png, so it shouldn't be an issue.

If they've converted them to DDS themselves using KSP4DDS, then maybe that could cause the icons not to show up if there's no exception in its list (img2dds already has an exception set up for that icon). I had the same issue myself with USI-LS and MKS. I had to add exceptions for them to the img2dds script to keep them in PNG.

Edited by UnanimousCoward
typo

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Both issues are very unclear.

Ok.

Say, you have a craft with a mass of 14 ton. If you add 8 parachutes, you cannot get the touch-down speed as low as 6 m/s. 6.3 is the lowest possible. Which is fine.

But if you really want that 6 m/s speed and add another 8 parachutes, that speed doesn't go down. It goes up. And when you add another 8, it goes up even more. Etc.

This is even worse for heavier craft.

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Are you sure you are editing the landing parameters correctly? As in "Number of parts used" just above the desired landing speed, not only adding parts physically.

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Are you sure you are editing the landing parameters correctly? As in "Number of parts used" just above the desired landing speed, not only adding parts physically.

Wow. Yes, that fixed it.

I never noticed, as it is in the box with the separate scroll bar, and you have to scroll that up to make it visible. And I assumed that all the selected parachutes were used.

So I did it wrong all the time...

Well, great mod, very bad UI. (You also have to fill in the same values at three different places.)

Edit: If you might want help designing a better UI, I'll be happy to do so.

Edited by SymbolicFrank

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Anyone else having issues with the RC icon not appearing again after the initial game load?

I am having this issue with RealChute's icon on toolbar also.

1. On initial load at Space Center, I have 5 MOD buttons on toolbar (plus 2 stock buttons):

ScanSAT, KCT, TWP, KAC, RC || contracts, messages (stock)

2. Leave Space Center to another building (such as Tracking Center or VAB), then return to Space Center. Toolbar is the same: 5 MOD buttons, plus 2 stock.

3. Leave Space Center to a vessel, then return to Space Center. Now the toolbar has only 4 MOD buttons, plus 2 stock:

ScanSAT, TWP, KAC, KCT || contracts, messages (stock)

ScanSAT = ScanSAT map icon (v12)

TWP = Transfer Window Planner icon (v1.3.1)

KAC = Kerbal Alarm Clock icon (v3.3.1.1)

KCT = Kerbal Construction Time (v1.1.6)

RC = RealChute icon (v1.3.2.3)

(not full list of mods)

should have some time tomorrow to get minimal list of MODs required to reproduce.

Edited by KraigL

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Same to me, i have icon of RC on first load, then it gone and no warning or errors in log

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Wow. Yes, that fixed it.

I never noticed, as it is in the box with the separate scroll bar, and you have to scroll that up to make it visible. And I assumed that all the selected parachutes were used.

So I did it wrong all the time...

Well, great mod, very bad UI. (You also have to fill in the same values at three different places.)

Edit: If you might want help designing a better UI, I'll be happy to do so.

No you don't have to. There's this button that says "apply to symmetry counterparts". It applies the settings to all the parts that were placed in symmetry with this one. If you built your vessel correctly, you only need to modify the settings once and apply them once. Also, I can't know what are the "selected parachutes". This is something that is very easy to a human eye, but not to a computer. And please do not tell me "staging", because this is exactly how things could completely mess up.

Really, I suggest you try building complex UIs like this once before commenting on how badly it's made.

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I've been on and off with RealChute. I was off until the latest FAR came bundled with "RealChute Lite" so I'm working with it. The following is going to seem like a load of whinging. It's going to seem like tiny inconsequential things which make too little difference to matter. And for the most part that's true but together I think that such polishing tweaks adds up to a big improvement in usability. Usability, UI, layout, and design are the improvements that I desire. Functionally I am satisfied. It does everything I want it to do but not in the easiest or most pleasing way.

"Toggle info" should be "Toggle Info" to be consistent with Squad's interaction menu capitalization convention. However I don't see a reason for this option title to be so generic. It'd be a problem if every mod that added an action to a parachute part used such a non-descriptive title. "RealChute Info" or even simply "RealChute" ensures "positive ID" in the midst of an arbitrary number of other mods.

The "RealChute Info Window v1.3.2.3" isn't formatted in a friendly way. Firstly it's not an info window because it's both passive info and active edits. It doesn't need to be called a window because we can see it's a window. Having the version number is undoubtedly a good thing but on the main user-facing window is a bit tacky. In the settings window is more normal. Am I really getting picky about the title of the info window? You bet. This kind of attention to detail absolutely filters down to a user's total perception. Regarding the "info" part I would strive to keep pure the passive nature of info readouts by never having any interactive setting there.

Here's an example of the current info window in the flight scene:

RealChute Info Window v1.3.2.3

Part name: RealChute Cone Double Chute

Symmetry counterparts: 0

Part mass: 0.213t

________

General:

Autocut speed: 0.5m/s

Must go downwards to deploy

Spare chutes: 5

--------------------------------------

Main chute:

Material: Nylon

Drag coefficient: 1.00

Predeployed diameter: 2.5m

area: 4.909m2

Deployed diameter: 50m

area: 1963.495m2

Chute max tempearture: 220°C

Current chute temperature: 26.9°

Predeployment: * altitude * pressure

Predeployment altitude: 900m

{Copy to symmetry counterparts}

Deployment altitude: 700m

{Copy to symmetry counterparts}

Predeployment speed: 2s

Deployment speed: 6s

--------------------

Secondary chute:

Material: Kevlar

Drag coefficient: 1.25

Predeployed diameter: 3m

area: 7.069m2

Deployed diameter: 6m

area: 28.274m2

Chute max temperature: 500°C

Current chute temperature 26.9°C

Predeployment: * altitude * pressure

Predeployment altitude: 30000m

{Copy to symmetry counterparts}

Deployment altitude: 2500m

{Copy to symmetry counterparts}

Autocut altitude: 1000m

Predeployment speed: 1s

Deployment speed: 3s

It's long with a scroll bar and no way to resize the window. Given a few formatting and organization guidelines this can be written in much more friendly, compact way.

1. Omit unnecessary information, e.g. the part name.

2. Keep the contents in the field of the window.

3. If category level is indicated by a change of text (e.g. bold), do not use a colon too.

4. Use Squad's capitalization convention.

5. Avoid space inefficient organization items like horizontal rules when possible.

6. Justify values into columns.

7. Manage significant figures in calculated values to reasonable precision (i.e. 3).

8. If values are a direct consequence of other values or strongly related, put them on the same line.

9. Make units and description agree (e.g. speed is not measured in seconds).

10. Use clear and unambiguous language.

Keeping in mind that I'll struggle to organize text into columns in a forum post, now we apply those rules with small adjustments to strip any active adjustments out of the purely informative report:

RealChute Info

________

Mass: 0.213t (0.100t)

Symmetry: 0

Automatic Disconnect: 0.5m/s

Require Falling: Yes

Repackings: 5 (5)

Main Canopy

Material Nylon (1.00)

Temperature 26.9°C (220°C)

Initial Size 2.5m (4.91m2)

Initial Activation: 900m ASL (2s)

Final Size 50m (1960m2)

Final Activation: 700m ASL (6s)

Secondary Canopy

Material: Kevlar (1.25)

Temperature: 26.9°C (500°C)

Initial Size: 3m (7.07m2)

Initial Activation: 30000m (1s)

Final Size: 6m (28.27m2)

Final Activation: 2500m (3s)

Autocut Altitude: 1000m

Apart from the editor-type functions of altering the activation altitudes/pressures and the copy-to-other-parts buttons all the info in the original is in the proposed format but is far more readable. It's off the cuff but hopefully it shows the promise of the process.

A common issue is that of language, picking the right words and phrases to describe specific events and features. Keywords, carefully chosen and disciplined in their use, really help the user feel at ease. For example the word-concept "deploy" is very muddy in KSP regarding parachutes. Is deploy referring to the "blue" state when the part is activated by staging? Is it when the first parachute part comes out (yellow state)? Is it when the canopy fully inflates (green state)? What about altitude and height? "Chute" isn't a word either. It's fine as part of the proper noun of the mod but I would avoid it as an improper noun. What is a "chute" anyway? In the case of a combo parachute is it the entire part or just a single component? Terminology should be separate and decided on to ease use.

The concept of "space chutes" is quite confusing. It suggests physical duplications of materials but that isn't borne out by the mass of the part. It's not extra fabric; it's not extra attempts if one canopy breaks, but a limited number of times it can be repacked from EVA. A different terminology would suit this concept better.

The Action Groups editor window is a bit of an anarchism. Having to switch to the action menu to edit the parachute info was an interesting workaround when Module Fuel Tanks did it ages ago. It has several issues. Career mode's upgrade locked action menu means that the user's UI interaction changes during the career for essentially no reason. It can't be dragged or resized. There are scrolling windows within scrolling windows. It covers the action menu editing interface. It doesn't play nice with any other mod that attempts the same. It's unnecessarily a second point of contact for the user when only one is needed. If there was a "switch to editing mode" type button on the Info window then both info and editing functions would share a single point of user contact for improved usability and efficiency.

The Editor window has an odd mix of helper calculator and not. A significant amount of the visual real estate is taken up by essentially a calculator to determine canopy diameter based on certain factors. I feel this "how to arrive at a diameter" process is an optional "side loop" process which deserves a dedicated popup dialog which would radically declutter the interface. Dispensing with the laborious first step of copying an existing example, here's a re-imagined version:

RealChute Editor

Mass: 0.595t (0.100t)

Cost: 1096.5F (500F)

{Load Preset}{Save Preset}

{-}{Case: Main, Case: Drogue, Case: Drag, Case: Combo}{+}

{Canopy: Single Main, Canopy: Triple Main, Canopy: Single Drogue, Canopy: Triple Drogue}

{Material: Nylon, Material: Silk,...}

{Falling Required, Falling Not Required}

{Disconnect on Ground, Remain on Ground}

Repackings: ___

Disconnect Speed: ___m/s

Size Initial:___m

Size Final: ___m

{Calculator...}

Deployment By *Altitude *Pressure

Initial Deployment _____ in ____ seconds.

Final Deployment _____ in ___ seconds.

The more the UI can use sliders instead of directly typed in numbers the better, and clamped to round step values (no 29543.96m). Taking the hand off the mouse and typing a number is a user effort cost that should be avoided.

Some reasonable default should be found for setting values, such as opening altitude/pressure. It does no one any good for the pressure deployment to default to 0.04atm since there's a 100% chance to fail given a reasonable 100x0km reentry using the stock MkI pod. The defaults are arbitrary so let's make them suitable for the most common case.

Action on stage to arm or deploy should be a part-specific setting instead of a global preference. It's certainly possible to want both kinds of behavior in the same stage sequence.

In conclusion I think comprehensive but relatively simple UI changes would make much more accessible and pleasurable user interaction for RealChute. The underlying functionality is quite complete but the interface with the user detracts from the experience. Thank you.

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Given Unity GUI is a horseload of crap to deal with and that I have much, much, MUCH better things to do, I'm sorry but this is pretty much the lowest priority right now. I've got much more productive and important things to work on. You're either going to have to deal with it or not use RealChute. Friendly reminder that you don't even need to use that window, and that stock offers no similar equivalent. This is just a useful candy. If you are so annoyed by it, I suggest you simply do not use it.

Also, sliders were the MAIN thing I was trying to avoid with that editor window. Sliders with Unity GUI are all around terrible to work with and there's no easy way to do what you describe other than creating my own objects, and this would be painfully long and tedious. Unfortunately not happening.

Edited by stupid_chris

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If they've converted them to DDS themselves using KSP4DDS, then maybe that could cause the icons not to show up if there's no exception in its list (img2dds already has an exception set up for that icon). I had the same issue myself with USI-LS and MKS. I had to add exceptions for them to the img2dds script to keep them in PNG.

I had this problem as well, although I did not have this converter installed. I had ATM-Aggressive installed, and when I dropped it out of the list, the RC icon returned.

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I have Ven's mod installed. I see some scaling problems with the stock chutes whit it (for example the first stock chute is smaller than 0.625). Any help?

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Having the version number is undoubtedly a good thing but on the main user-facing window is a bit tacky. In the settings window is more normal. Am I really getting picky about the title of the info window? You bet. This kind of attention to detail absolutely filters down to a user's total perception.

You call it tacky, I call it having a vital piece of information available in commonly used screenshots that are given in place of actual bug reports.

Knowing what version the user actually has installed provides the solution to about half of the problems report for me, which is why I plaster that version number on every single window I create.

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You call it tacky, I call it having a vital piece of information available in commonly used screenshots that are given in place of actual bug reports.

Knowing what version the user actually has installed provides the solution to about half of the problems report for me, which is why I plaster that version number on every single window I create.

Exactly this. That's the precise reason it's there. Not for the user, but for me.

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I've been having an issue with Realchute. I don't know if it's the same with stock chutes or not, but...

The RealChutes are refusing to open in a fairing. Which is, you know, fine and dandy. Except they're not in a fairing, they're just near a fairing. Or, in this case, a service bay.

The simplest way to reproduce it is to put a 1.25m service bay on top of a cone adapter, put some radial realchutes at the top of the cone adapter, near to the service bay, and try to land.

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Not sure if this has been reported (I checked the last few pages), or even if it is moddable or not, but the engineer report doesn't count Real Chute as a parachute. Not the end of the world, but a little bug none the less.

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I've been having an issue with Realchute. I don't know if it's the same with stock chutes or not, but...

The RealChutes are refusing to open in a fairing. Which is, you know, fine and dandy. Except they're not in a fairing, they're just near a fairing. Or, in this case, a service bay.

The simplest way to reproduce it is to put a 1.25m service bay on top of a cone adapter, put some radial realchutes at the top of the cone adapter, near to the service bay, and try to land.

Unfortunately not in my control. I'm checking if the part is shielded, and stock controls that. If the shielding code is borked, it's not on my end

Not sure if this has been reported (I checked the last few pages), or even if it is moddable or not, but the engineer report doesn't count Real Chute as a parachute. Not the end of the world, but a little bug none the less.

It's not implemented.

Edited by stupid_chris

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Unfortunately not in my control. I'm checking if the part is shielded, and stock controls that. If the shielding code is borked, it's not on my end.

......... Ah well.

I suppose it means that you shouldn't build your ships with chutes attached near to service bays, fairings, or cargo bays. This also means ATOP those parts is not a good idea, so separate them out with something.

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