[WIP][TechTree @ 0.23.5] - [MS19e] - Realistic Progression LITE

[Makeone]

Semmel, without quoting your longish post of how you feel the RPL is working, but i think that one point needs bit thinking of:

Science Jr. and Mystery(Sic!) Goo, although in stock gameplay, best result it received when they are returned back to kerbin..or more precisely, just the 'result' is returned (works better on deadly re-entry). But that is because distances are reasonable because of stock game. BUT however, on RSS, distances are huge and any trip longer than moon, will take ages. I would like to see you returning 3 or more if them examples from, say Duna/Mars, back to Kerbin/Earth? How much more dV you would need, not to mention of returning them examples safely to planets surface, care do show? Oh, and don't use too high level tech as without them, they would be VERY difficult to reach.

To be short, your suggestion would ruin whole RPL.

[Rothank]

Ok, now I have a problem myself. I'm trying to construct a massive 300t to LEO lifter, but procedural fairings and interstages only go up to 6m, which is not enough. Is there any way to make them bigger? I think NathanKell posted a solution somewhere, but I can't seem to find it.

EDIT: Nevermind, found it.

I'm having similiar problem with my 8m diameter rocket and can't find NathanKell's solution. Could you direct me to it or simply explain how to get rid of this restriction?

[Semmel]

That is because the effective range between two antennas of different range, antenna A and B, is calculated as following: Effectiverange = Range A + SquareRoot of(RangeA x RangeB). This is when Antenna A has the longer range of the two.

I think NathanKell came up with this to better simulate realistic ranges where a small antenna can communicate with a large one far away. Probes don't always carry gigantic dishes irl.

Ohh I see. I thought both receiving and transmitting antennas need the specified range. I guess, I should have read the manual. Thank you!

This mod will help you with balancing of asymmetric stuff: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/35996-0-23-x-RCS-Build-Aid-v0-4-6-ARM-patch-fixes

Thx. I have it but I didnt really use it much as I didnt see the offset of the thrust from the center of mass. The offset is tiny but when applying a force on the thrusters it does matter a lot. Maybe I have to deeper into balancing. However, a vectoring range of ~0.01 degrees still seem like a bug to me.

Semmel, without quoting your longish post of how you feel the RPL is working, but i think that one point needs bit thinking of:

Science Jr. and Mystery(Sic!) Goo, although in stock gameplay, best result it received when they are returned back to kerbin..or more precisely, just the 'result' is returned (works better on deadly re-entry). But that is because distances are reasonable because of stock game. BUT however, on RSS, distances are huge and any trip longer than moon, will take ages. I would like to see you returning 3 or more if them examples from, say Duna/Mars, back to Kerbin/Earth? How much more dV you would need, not to mention of returning them examples safely to planets surface, care do show? Oh, and don't use too high level tech as without them, they would be VERY difficult to reach.

To be short, your suggestion would ruin whole RPL.

All right, on the flyby at venus, I didnt had a goo nor a science Jr and got 1600 science points due to the other instruments. Thats plenty of science already. By visiting the other bodies with the 4 standard instruments, there should be plenty of science floating around. Also I have a surface laser zapping spectrometer analyser thingy from who knows what mod, gas chromatograph and liquid chromatograph mass spectrometers from the interstellar mod. A geiger counter that looks like it comes from AIES or FASA. Plenty of opportunity for science there. To have something that HAS to come back that are not kerbals and to make the return mission in any case somewhat difficult, I proposed to use the heavy science parts that give far less science on transmission anyway. Also it makes sense to return them because all the other instruments just measure something that can be transmitted just as well. You dont need to return a thermometer or a spectrum, transmitting it is reasonable. Science jr and goo on the other hand, do not have any analysing equipment. They have just a target substance that is exposed to its environment. Returning them makes sense.

As for the dV question:

I plan all my missions with this chart: http://i.imgur.com/SqdzxzF.png, but I plan for 10.000 dV in vacuum for launch, but obviously use atmospheric engines and a TWR in atmosphere of 1.4 at launch. Dont know if thats the best, but it works well for me. So for a mars mission with highly elliptical orbit and return, we have

10000 dV for launch

4370 dV for going there (plus contingincy) and

1060 dV for returning (plus contingincy) with aerobreak in Earth atmosphere.

That makes a dV of 16000 total, including contingency. Thats perfectly manageable, even if you have a heat shield for interplanetary return and 2 experiments each. For Venus you would need slightly less. Thats a perfect example for the need of a heavy lifter btw.. ;-)

[Hattivat]

I'm having similiar problem with my 8m diameter rocket and can't find NathanKell's solution. Could you direct me to it or simply explain how to get rid of this restriction?

Here you go: http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/58135-TechTree-0-23-5-MS19e-Realistic-Progression-LITE-%282014-05-11%29?p=1097429&highlight=procedural#post1097429

BTW, construction is now complete, behold Veles I:

Pure hydrolox, comfortably lifts 300 tonnes into LEO (tested with a dummy weight). Mars, here I come!

Edited July 3, 2014 by Hattivat

[pjf]

Providing a link to some of my RPL tweaks, provided as-is, without support. Use at your own risk, etc etc. At the time of posting there are two files:

Science.cfg:

* Tweaks sensor instruments (Geiger Counter, Magnetometer, etc) to have 100% science transmit value.

* Tweaks same instruments to always give 100% science on first reading (no more having to triple sample).

* Tweaks material lab experiments (Science Jr and Mystery Goo) to require return for science (0% transmit value)

Tree.cfg:

* Adds the SCANsat multispectral scanner to the SpecialisedScience node (previously this would not appear in the tech tree)

* Moves the rovemate body to advanced landing, where its wheels are (NB: requires you *delete* roverBody from your save-game's tree.cfg)

* Adds support for UniversalStorage (to the survivability node)

* Adds support for missing Modular Kolonisation System (MKS) (to the advScienceTech node)

At some point I'll probably break these out into their own downloadable and easier-to-install mod, but right now these are lifted from patches I'll hacked directly into my GameData directory.

Both of these require a recent version of ModuleManger. I've been testing them with 2.1.5.

~ pjf

[griffin247]

It says "rover autopilot", but that's what made manuever planner appear for me. I'm sorry it didn't solve your problems.

am stil trying to get my new instll to work , as it is ive lost al my flights and ships ive made and cant get kerbin to show up as earth , but i wil keep battling away aslo i have to delete most of the ares stuff and some probe stuff to get it to run so god knows what iam doing wrong

[Semmel]

Thx pjf, I would like to see these changes transition to RPL

[griffin247]

am stil trying to get my new instll to work , as it is ive lost al my flights and ships ive made and cant get kerbin to show up as earth , but i wil keep battling away aslo i have to delete most of the ares stuff and some probe stuff to get it to run so god knows what iam doing wrong

ok so i have installed the basic mods required for RSS however everything loads nicely until it hits RSS fasa new Fairings theres something in that file that just frezzes the install....ok so if i remove said file then most of the ares stuff locks up the install

[tmikesecrist3]

there is something I noticed.. it might have had something to do with the RO update I just in stalled... when I did it I broke my ksp but I got it back mostly... now I have some RSC thursters unlocked in the tech tree but the dont show up in the VAB

[Makeone]

As for the dV question:

I plan all my missions with this chart: http://i.imgur.com/SqdzxzF.png, but I plan for 10.000 dV in vacuum for launch, but obviously use atmospheric engines and a TWR in atmosphere of 1.4 at launch. Dont know if thats the best, but it works well for me. So for a mars mission with highly elliptical orbit and return, we have

10000 dV for launch

4370 dV for going there (plus contingincy) and

1060 dV for returning (plus contingincy) with aerobreak in Earth atmosphere.

That makes a dV of 16000 total, including contingency. Thats perfectly manageable, even if you have a heat shield for interplanetary return and 2 experiments each. For Venus you would need slightly less. Thats a perfect example for the need of a heavy lifter btw.. ;-)

You do realize that optimal return from Mars doesn't happen right after you have arrived there, do you? I think there was a pictoral of an mars mission on RSS threads starting post and if i recall correctly, return window is from 300(!) days from arrival, and it takes 100 days minium to get there. And if you send manned flight to Mars, then landing should be a thing, why bother else. Sure, you can aerobrake there, but even after that, there is still 2-2,5km/s speed left that is very difficult to reduce fast enough by any current means...

Oh well, better stay stock space, trying to get those outer planets is bit too daunting for me, one reason being that even how accurate burn one makes from Earth orbit, game will turn it wonky approach to target and any burn to change the approach any better costs fortunes, ion power would probably be most recommended, but getting that and nuclear stuff open...ugh.

[NathanKell]

griffin247: make sure you have the latest RO and the latest FASA.

tmikesecrist13: discussed on RO thread.

[andqui]

I just got through setting up a RSS KSP build from the beginning. I'm using procedural parts and real fuels. The procedural fuel tanks and service modules appear in the career research screen, in the "Tech Level 0 Engines" section, but don't appear in the VAB screen. In the VAB propulsion parts list, I have "Procedural Real Fuels SRB," "Procedural Kethane," both of which are there available without unlocking anything in the "Start" node. However, none of the 5 procedural fuel tanks in the "Tech Level 0 Engines" section appear in the VAB list. The other parts and engines in there do appear correctly. In sandbox mode, the "Procedural Real Fuels tank" is available (which is not present in this Tech Level 0 Engines" section. What should I do to fix this?

thanks

[pjf]

Hmm, I'm not sure if RPL supports Procedural Parts. It definitely supports StretchyTanks, but you'll want to add this patch to your GameData directory to get them to work properly.

I don't yet use Procedural Parts myself; it may be adding tech to nodes that either don't exist in RPL, or don't unlock as part of your initial set-up.

(I'm slowly writing compatibility patches as I stumble across problems, but my hope is that MedievalNerd will return and I can throw all my changes at him.)

[Semmel]

You do realize that optimal return from Mars doesn't happen right after you have arrived there, do you? I think there was a pictoral of an mars mission on RSS threads starting post and if i recall correctly, return window is from 300(!) days from arrival, and it takes 100 days minium to get there. And if you send manned flight to Mars, then landing should be a thing, why bother else. Sure, you can aerobrake there, but even after that, there is still 2-2,5km/s speed left that is very difficult to reduce fast enough by any current means...

Oh well, better stay stock space, trying to get those outer planets is bit too daunting for me, one reason being that even how accurate burn one makes from Earth orbit, game will turn it wonky approach to target and any burn to change the approach any better costs fortunes, ion power would probably be most recommended, but getting that and nuclear stuff open...ugh.

Ok, there are several things mixed up I guess. I know that you cant return from Mars immediately. Thats why I account for the dV needed to be captured and return. I do not think that aerobreak into mars atmosphere is a good approach because you would need a heat shield which is heavier than the fuel you need. It might be possible to use the same heatshield in Mars atmosphere as you would use to reduce your speed at earth atmosphere, but that requires some very clever probe design.

In case I would send a manned mission to Mars.. well, thats an entirely different can of worms. I wouldnt take Science jr or the goo cannister with me then. If you send kerbals, thats all you really do. And the third thing: Going to the outer planets.. well.. I dont know if a return mission to Jupiter or Saturn is possible. I wouldnt try it with realistic technology. Maybe with some of the crazy drives from the interstellar mod (not the FTL drive).. but thats future stuff.

And finally: The game does not work well if you time accelerate over a sphere of influence change. Always reduce your acceleration to 1x if you do that. Then your orbits are not messed up.

Cheers,

Semmel

[Semmel]

Hmm, I'm not sure if RPL supports Procedural Parts.

It does slightly. You have to change the size limit of the tanks as you progress through the tech tree, other than that, its fine. I use them. To quote my self:

With the current release of PP and RF, go to GameData/ProceduralParts/Parts/ZOtherMods/RFTank.cfg and alter the appropriate lines to the suggested ones in here: forum link. That gives you larger PP tanks, but not too large and removes the volume limit completely, so the tanks are only limited by their shape.

This is valid for ProceduralParts-0.9.14

[m_robber]

I'm currently exploring the outer planets and have been using the AIES Comlar1 Dish and have RemoteTech installed. However, the science transmissions take forever - literally hours - and fast-forwarding time makes no difference. Does anyone know how to fix this?

[Hattivat]

I don't know of a fix, but I can confirm that the same happens to me, remotetech seems to ignore time acceleration.

[pjf]

Hmm, is this an RT2 only issue? (Ie, if RT2 is not installed, does it go away?) If so, then https://github.com/RemoteTechnologiesGroup/RemoteTech/issues would be the place to report it. The RT2 team are *very* responsive. (I've had some reported bugs fixed in a matter of hours!)

~ pjf

[prc]

I'm currently exploring the outer planets and have been using the AIES Comlar1 Dish and have RemoteTech installed. However, the science transmissions take forever - literally hours - and fast-forwarding time makes no difference. Does anyone know how to fix this?

Sounds reasonable, as far as I understand the bandwidth IRL is pretty slow when communication over long ranges. ... but

One way to fool the system is to launch one satellite just for the coms. This is how I did with Mars.

1 Coms satellite orbitting mars. For local communication DTS (45degree angle thingy) or communotron 32. 1-2 Disks (I prefer 2 for balancing issues) for contacting Earth.

Satellite for experimets. 1 communotron 32 (or DTS), 1-2 discs for long range communication.

After both are on stable orbit around Mars (or which ever place).

1) guick save

2) activate com 32 or DTS on communications satellite (target the experiment satellite)

3) from experiment probe, turn on short range coms, target coms satellite, shutdown long range coms.

4) Do experiments and send

--> Data is actually sent via the coms satellite, because communotron 32 / dts is quite fast at uploading, it goes faster. You could think it as if the coms satellite is working as proxy server, and uploads the data later on... but really I think RT2/RPL just uses the speed of your active antenna that has connection to Earth.. but if you proxy it via 'fast antenna' it uses that speed, note you really need to close the longrange disks from the experiment probe or those will be used.. so it prefers to use route without any extra hops.

Edited July 7, 2014 by prc

[Hattivat]

The fact that it takes minutes/hours of game time is reasonable. The fact that you cannot timewarp through this process isn't.

[Semmel]

Before RSS+RPL, I used to play stock KSP without RT2. Data transmission never got time accelerated. So its not a bug of RT2, its just how the game works. But I guess that can be fixed within RT2.

[tmikesecrist3]

Hey I noticed something that strikes me as odd. not wrong just odd.. First off no of the parts seem to match up to the Mercury Juno parts. Though I may have something installed wrong. the other thing I noticed is should the A-7 (Mercury redstone engine) come with the Explorer parts? I mean didnt the juno and the red stone use the same engine?

[prometheanfire]

My problem is still transmission of partial science though (as well as slow transmission sometimes). I run an experiment a few times and get varrying amounts of science out of it, not running out of range/power. Don't know why I get partial science when I should be getting 100%

[Hattivat]

Hey I noticed something that strikes me as odd. not wrong just odd.. First off no of the parts seem to match up to the Mercury Juno parts. Though I may have something installed wrong. the other thing I noticed is should the A-7 (Mercury redstone engine) come with the Explorer parts? I mean didnt the juno and the red stone use the same engine?

It probably should, but it currently doesn't. You will only get that engine once you unlock the Freedom 7 (Mercury program) node.

[Ratzap]

It probably should, but it currently doesn't. You will only get that engine once you unlock the Freedom 7 (Mercury program) node.

Most of us moved it manually in the tree.cfg. If the mythical 'f' patch arrives, it should be fixed in there.