taniwha

[1.3.1] Extraplanetary Launchpads v5.9.0

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Here is a patch that fixes the disappearing Mallet and Survey Stake when running with SetiRebalance, in case anyone else runs into that problem:

@PART[ExMallet]:BEFORE[SETIrebalance]
{
	@cost = 2
}

@PART[ExSurveyStake]:BEFORE[SETIrebalance]
{
	@cost = 1
}

 

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I just thought it might be worth covering some of my design motivations for various things in EL.

Number One would have to be reliability. Newly spawned vessels exploding depending on how you held your mouth was not fun. Some of you might feel I have not succeeded at this, but outside of development, I have had very little trouble since shortly after getting orbital construction working back around KSP 0.23 (there were some nasty spawn issues remaining that caused distorted ships. I believe it was @Van Disaster who helped me with that). Most problems since then have been in-development code (I had a lot of "fun" with the survey system in its first year). Now, almost all problems are caused by either errors in other mods (throwing exceptions during module start causing EL to collapse) or PEBCAK (eg, incorrect usage of stakes, not understanding the productivity system, etc). This is not to say there haven't been problems, but fixing them has always taken priority over new features. That said, I need to understand the problems before I can fix them.

Probably the next biggest motivation would be giving kerbals meaning. This means not just the kerbals themselvs, but their traits, too (class, experience, stupidity, etc). This is why the productivity system works the way it does. This is also why I made pilots surveyors: it upset me that people considered them to be useless once probes were unlocked. Still trying to come up with something for scientists to keep them occupied once the tech tree is completed.

Then there's giving meaning to the player. Thus the way recycling bins work (both new and old behavior). Originally, recycling was done just by clicking a button and all debris within 50m of the pad would be recycled. Boring. Very Boring. It was Majiir who encouraged me to do something about that.

After that comes usability. This is seen mainly in the timed builds: previously, if you wanted to build a 1000t (dry-mass) vessel, you needed to have, on-hand, 1000t of RocketParts. This meant 2000m3 or about 10 7.5m spherical tanks (Talisar Parts now) (or 60 Jumbo-64s). Timed builds meant that so long as you had any RocketParts, the build would progress until you ran out, but the local supply could be topped up by any means (local production, or shipping).

Usability is also why EL does orbital construction: the orginal Orbital Construction (and then Orbital Construction Redux) mod was really not very nice to use: you had to place a special part on the vessel to be constructed, launch it normally, go through that special part's PAW to select the construction station. I think the mod switched you to the new location automatically, and I think it stripped off launch clamps, but it exploded the special part, which was quite disconcerting and sometimes took out a part of the newly launched vessel. However, the worst bits were that it was horribly slow, and that special part mean you couldn't build just any ship you wanted and that the ships with the parts could not be loaded at all if the mod wasn't installed.

Now, making things easy is not one of my design motivations. However, nor is making things difficult. Instead, it's making things believable. I can't say that EL's production chain is a raging success here, but, BUT... This is where the recipe system comes in. The only problem is it is a LOT of work to figure out good recipes for everything and thus why I haven't done so. Also, a full-fledged production chain with all sorts of details very likely would conflict with the goal of usability. I suspect it would be best for there to be a separate mod. USI does (or did, I've gotten the impression USI no longer uses EL, need to check) make some use of recipes, so my efforts there didn't go completely to waste :).

And then there's the overarching design motivation: I want to enjoy using EL, and I hope that others will too.

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1 hour ago, taniwha said:

I just thought it might be worth covering some of my design motivations for various things in EL.

Number One would have to be reliability. <snip>

Then there's giving meaning to the player. <snip>

After that comes usability. This is seen mainly in the timed builds: previously, if you wanted to build a 1000t (dry-mass) vessel, you needed to have, on-hand, 1000t of RocketParts. This meant 2000m3 or about 10 7.5m spherical tanks (Talisar Parts now) (or 60 Jumbo-64s). Timed builds meant that so long as you had any RocketParts, the build would progress until you ran out, but the local supply could be topped up by any means (local production, or shipping).

Now, making things easy is not one of my design motivations. However, nor is making things difficult. Instead, it's making things believable. I can't say that EL's production chain is a raging success here, but, BUT... This is where the recipe system comes in. The only problem is it is a LOT of work to figure out good recipes for everything and thus why I haven't done so. Also, a full-fledged production chain with all sorts of details very likely would conflict with the goal of usability. I suspect it would be best for there to be a separate mod. USI does (or did, I've gotten the impression USI no longer uses EL, need to check) make some use of recipes, so my efforts there didn't go completely to waste :).

And then there's the overarching design motivation: I want to enjoy using EL, and I hope that others will too.

Thanks @taniwha

I really like EL, especially as it does the orbital builds and I find it works okay, especially more recently as I've come back to it alongside Kerbalism and KCT.

I appreciate the detail going into the storage of rocket parts, and as I thought about the added resource of MetalOre, the more I like it (discussion held previously).

I think though that previously the recipe system the MKS introduced with Material Kits and Specialised Parts was good.  It was basically the only thing I had MKS installed for from memory.  On my current career play thorough the Ore only patch (removing MetalOre) and simply creating rockets in a couple of steps has been just a little too simplistic.  I obviously like simple... but maybe just not too simple.

So thanks for the clarifications, and the work going into this particular mod.

Peace.

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Posted (edited)

@taniwha is there a way to decrease build-time? I'll actually like to have instant-builds, because why should they need xx hours on the moon, when it only takes a click on kerbin :-) (not using KCT ofc)

Edited by Blackline

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@Blackline: currently, the only thing you can do is crank up the productivity factor of the workshop(s).

I removed the insta-build code from EL several versions back because it was starting to suffer bit-rot (I never used it) and didn't want to continue maintaining it.

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On 14.4.2017 at 8:15 AM, taniwha said:

I just thought it might be worth covering some of my design motivations for various things in EL.

/snip the wall:wink:

Hi taniwha. Thank you for the time to say this wise words. (I think they are worth to be in OP)

1. Thank you for your work! I'm realy thankfull that you made rhis big pile of work.

2. Your thoughs and oppinions are the only option for existence for this mod.

3. It is your mode and your decision which way it will go and what will be/is implemented here!

4. And like everywhere it is every time a MDU (most demanding user) arround who says "i will have...". Don't let bother you and keep up on your way. The most important point is to ask yourself if you use it self "am i happy with what i see?" And if you can say "yes" that is the only one important decision.

"Make it so commander" and let us have fun in your world!

Godspeed

Urses

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I'm having a little difficulty locating the PDF that @taniwha made for EL so that us mod developers don't shoot ourselves in the foot. Does somebody have a link to it?

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11 minutes ago, taniwha said:

@Angel-125 It should be in EL's directory, but a slightly updated version is at http://taniwha.org/~bill/EL_Manual.pdf

Much appreciated, thanks! I'm making a ground-based launchpad for the first time. Are there any requirements for the part? Does it need to be oriented a specific way?

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While it might not be clear enough for you, everything is there in the EXLaunchpad description (4.2.2, page 14). Please let me know whether it's clear enough.

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Yes I did, thank you. :) I'm sorting through my new part. I can select a rocket to build, but progress isn't being made and I instantly get an alarm telling me it's done. The test craft is just a 0.625m probe core and 0.625m mono fuel tank. I'm making sure I have everything set up properly before asking for more help. :)

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@Angel-125: The insta-alarm is probably due to the lack of progress resulting in a bogus ETA (I really need to look at the KAC integration).

Just to help you with your testing: you need construction kerbals (defaults to engineers, but any kerbal with the ExConstructionSkill experience effect), and a workshop. Section 2.2 gives the details, but if you use either the Rocket Workbench (funny tower thing in pods) or the Workshop (big blue thing in utils), any engineer with stupidity < 0.5 will be productive.

For your own parts, if either the ProductivityFactor is >= 1, or FullyEquipped is true, then the same will apply. Otherwise the engineer will need at least 1 star. (section 4.2.4 covers workshop configuration).

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11 hours ago, taniwha said:

@Angel-125: The insta-alarm is probably due to the lack of progress resulting in a bogus ETA (I really need to look at the KAC integration).

Just to help you with your testing: you need construction kerbals (defaults to engineers, but any kerbal with the ExConstructionSkill experience effect), and a workshop. Section 2.2 gives the details, but if you use either the Rocket Workbench (funny tower thing in pods) or the Workshop (big blue thing in utils), any engineer with stupidity < 0.5 will be productive.

For your own parts, if either the ProductivityFactor is >= 1, or FullyEquipped is true, then the same will apply. Otherwise the engineer will need at least 1 star. (section 4.2.4 covers workshop configuration).

Interesting, I'm getting the same issue with the EL parts that I do with my own; I try to start a build, but the KAC alarm instantly comes up, and the build does not progress. I have plenty of RocketParts, a staffed Workshop holding engineers, power... not sure what I'm missing, it's been awhile since I've been able to use EL. I'm using EL 5.7.1. Here's a screenshot of what I'm seeing:

4siWMKF.png

And here are my logs. My test craft is just a 0.625m probe core with a 0.625m monopropellant tank, both stock.

I did notice this in the logs:

Spoiler

[ERR 10:04:25.833] [ShipTemplate]: No Resource definition found for RESOURCE

[ERR 10:04:25.834] [ShipTemplate]: No Resource definition found for RESOURCE

[ERR 10:04:25.835] [ShipTemplate]: No Resource definition found for RESOURCE

[ERR 10:04:25.836] [ShipTemplate]: No Resource definition found for RESOURCE

[ERR 10:04:25.838] [ShipTemplate]: No Resource definition found for RESOURCE

[ERR 10:04:25.839] [ShipTemplate]: No Resource definition found for RESOURCE

[WRN 10:04:26.256] [ShipConstruction]: No thumbnail image exists for thumbs/default_VAB_KH-10 M_O_L_E_
[WRN 10:04:26.390] [ShipConstruction]: No thumbnail image exists for thumbs/default_VAB_MunarLander
[WRN 10:04:26.446] [ShipConstruction]: No thumbnail image exists for thumbs/default_VAB_Titan K-20 Kestrel
[WRN 10:04:26.453] [ShipConstruction]: No thumbnail image exists for thumbs/default_VAB_Titan K-20 Kestrel2

 

I double-checked to make sure my mods weren't stepping on any toes, and the errors happen when I don't have any Wild Blue mods installed.

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Talkin about ship distortions check out the ship on the left at 6.35 its supposed to be smooth, then see what happens when the dissasembler turns on :o 

 

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Posted (edited)

@Angel-125: 404 on the log file. I don't know what's up with the resources.

[edit] if you can paste the lines where the workshop calculates the productivity, that would be sufficient (just search for workshop after the scene load).

One possibility is a timing issue, so EVAing and reboarding a kerbal from the workshop might fix things.

@Space Kadet: I don't know. I haven't seen EL mangling vessels for a few years now, and I don't remember ever seeing things go badly like that when recycling. For both issues, I highly suspect some mod is throwing exceptions (and going by the fancy parts on your ships, you have enough mods that this is likely).

Edited by taniwha

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I dont havy many mods..... only 80...90... ok so maybe 124 :P im not surprised,and honistly that ship was a pain so im glad that went pop! Thanks for all the work!love epl

 

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Don't get me wrong: there's nothing wrong with lots of mods (part of the joy of KSP!). It's just that mods having problems with EL and throwing exceptions (or just throwing exceptions normally anyway and EL suffering) has been a problem in the past.

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1 hour ago, taniwha said:

@Angel-125: 404 on the log file. I don't know what's up with the resources.

[edit] if you can paste the lines where the workshop calculates the productivity, that would be sufficient (just search for workshop after the scene load).

One possibility is a timing issue, so EVAing and reboarding a kerbal from the workshop might fix things.

@Space Kadet: I don't know. I haven't seen EL mangling vessels for a few years now, and I don't remember ever seeing things go badly like that when recycling. For both issues, I highly suspect some mod is throwing exceptions (and going by the fancy parts on your ships, you have enough mods that this is likely).

Hm, sorry about that. The latest set of logs are here. Thanks for taking a look. :)

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This is the block I mentioned:

[LOG 16:14:13.080] [EL Workshop] Kerbal: Gerra Kerman 0.7843105 0.4629743 False 0() 0 False 5 False False
[LOG 16:14:13.081] [EL Workshop] Kerbal: Jonney Kerman 0.002155515 0.8210124 False 0() 0 False 5 False False
[LOG 16:14:13.082] [EL Workshop] Kerbal: Kirwig Kerman 0.3146765 0.5834651 False 0() 0 False 5 False False
[LOG 16:14:13.083] [EL Workshop] Kerbal: Maxenna Kerman 0.5610824 0.05136281 False 0() 0 False 5 False False

And this is the code generating it:

        Debug.LogFormat ("[EL Workshop] Kerbal: "
                         + "{0} {1} {2} {3} {4}({5}) {6} {7} {8} {9} {10}",
                         crew.name, crew.stupidity, crew.courage,
                         crew.isBadass, experience, expstr,
                         contribution, hasConstructionSkill,
                         crew.experienceLevel,
                         enableSkilled, SupportInexperienced);

So, for whatever reason, none of your crew has the construction skill.

It the logs you gave me, Gusfry (your engineer going by your screenshot) is in the GondoLab, while the Gerra and co (in the log block) are in the Bison Command Cab. EL adds the workshop to all parts that have ModuleCommand, thus the cab has the workshop module. It appears the GondoLab does not.

As a reminder (you have it for the stockyard) you will need NEEDS[Launchpad] for your MM patch.

As for your screenshot: I don't know what's up there. However, I did just check that things work as expected in sandbox, and they do here.

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16 hours ago, taniwha said:

This is the block I mentioned:


[LOG 16:14:13.080] [EL Workshop] Kerbal: Gerra Kerman 0.7843105 0.4629743 False 0() 0 False 5 False False
[LOG 16:14:13.081] [EL Workshop] Kerbal: Jonney Kerman 0.002155515 0.8210124 False 0() 0 False 5 False False
[LOG 16:14:13.082] [EL Workshop] Kerbal: Kirwig Kerman 0.3146765 0.5834651 False 0() 0 False 5 False False
[LOG 16:14:13.083] [EL Workshop] Kerbal: Maxenna Kerman 0.5610824 0.05136281 False 0() 0 False 5 False False

And this is the code generating it:


        Debug.LogFormat ("[EL Workshop] Kerbal: "
                         + "{0} {1} {2} {3} {4}({5}) {6} {7} {8} {9} {10}",
                         crew.name, crew.stupidity, crew.courage,
                         crew.isBadass, experience, expstr,
                         contribution, hasConstructionSkill,
                         crew.experienceLevel,
                         enableSkilled, SupportInexperienced);

So, for whatever reason, none of your crew has the construction skill.

It the logs you gave me, Gusfry (your engineer going by your screenshot) is in the GondoLab, while the Gerra and co (in the log block) are in the Bison Command Cab. EL adds the workshop to all parts that have ModuleCommand, thus the cab has the workshop module. It appears the GondoLab does not.

As a reminder (you have it for the stockyard) you will need NEEDS[Launchpad] for your MM patch.

As for your screenshot: I don't know what's up there. However, I did just check that things work as expected in sandbox, and they do here.

Not sure about the workers, but I did go back and redo the MM patch, and that seems to have done the trick. :) My NEEDS clause was using "ExtraplanetaryLaunchpads" instead of "Launchpad" and after changing it, I was able to build my test craft. Now I just need to orient the SpawnTransform correctly, and make sure it's high enough off the deck...

Sorry I missed your PM earlier, thanks for your help. :)

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And here we go, one fully built and correctly oriented V-22:

k79YWlG.png

Thanks again for your help @taniwha! :) Absolutely love using EL, and I'm finally at a point where I can look at my EL-based robotic 3D printer (very much late-game tech).

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@Angel-125: I'm glad I was able to help. Also, the offer in the PM still stands, so any time.

The pad looks really nice.

 

I've been actually playing KSP again lately (shock! horror!) and I've been finding various little niggles in EL, so there should be some QOL updates soonish.

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2 hours ago, taniwha said:

@Angel-125: I'm glad I was able to help. Also, the offer in the PM still stands, so any time.

The pad looks really nice.

 

I've been actually playing KSP again lately (shock! horror!) and I've been finding various little niggles in EL, so there should be some QOL updates soonish.

Good to hear that KSP playing has been happening!

Peace.

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Posted (edited)
On 15.4.2017 at 0:20 PM, taniwha said:

@Blackline: currently, the only thing you can do is crank up the productivity factor of the workshop(s).

I removed the insta-build code from EL several versions back because it was starting to suffer bit-rot (I never used it) and didn't want to continue maintaining it.

I set it up to 1000, but that seems to break it tho... can't build anything, and the KAC gets a timer set to now.

0UaO5zi.png

thats how i did it:

Spoiler

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ExWorkshop]]:FINAL
{
    -MODULE[ExWorkshop] {}
    
    MODULE
    {
        name = ExWorkshop
        // CRANK it up, dont want to wait
        productivityFactor = 1000
    }
}

EDIT figured something: i wrote productivityFactor, but it should be ProductivityFactor, with a capital P ! it shows now correct in VAB, but still can't build anything...

EDIT2: very weird. it seems that my "BILL KERMAN" is broken... it works with any other (freshly hired) engineer... btw, i am using your KerbalStats as well @taniwha

savefile: https://www.dropbox.com/s/crz4u3r5f7jhygm/persistent.sfs?dl=0

4mIPKGa.png

Edited by Blackline

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