[1.12] Extraplanetary Launchpads v6.99.3

[Kerba Fett]

I was afraid it would be something simple like that. I've been looking for a setting file and the closest thing I can locate is mm.cfg. (module manager?)

I didn't see anything in there about timed builds, but it's pretty hard to be sure since its got no real formatting. (like one long run-on sentence)

I'm at work now and can't check on it, but I'll have another look once I get home.

[Hevak]

I was afraid it would be something simple like that. I've been looking for a setting file and the closest thing I can locate is mm.cfg. (module manager?)

I didn't see anything in there about timed builds, but it's pretty hard to be sure since its got no real formatting. (like one long run-on sentence)

I'm at work now and can't check on it, but I'll have another look once I get home.

my bad. I gave wrong info.. You need to go into your save game folder. Then open your persistent file and look for a line called exsettings. Then change timedbuilds = False

[Deredere]

So I have these extra EPL parts in the beginning of my part list:

http://i.imgur.com/9pNeYVH.jpg

A lot of them are untextured. The same parts appear later, all textured, in the list. I can't figure out where these are coming from. I've deleted and reinstalled EPL and the whole mod build is fresh.

I suspect Active Texture Management might be doing it, since these parts are somehow in front of B9's, but I can't figure how to fix that, if that's even the case, and only EPL is affected.

[taniwha]

I have pushed to github the "background" build patch I got from Henry Bauer (no idea who he is on the forums), so the next release of EL will do background builds, or those of you willing and able to brave building it yourself can try it out.

Kerba Fett: One of the ideas of timed builds is you can mine and smelt while building. This has always been the case and is in itself a great time saver: no need to get huge RocketParts containers to your base and fill them up before you start building. With a few small containers, an auger feeding a smelter that feeds a rocket parts maker that feeds a pad works quite well.

[Hevak]

So I have these extra EPL parts in the beginning of my part list:

http://i.imgur.com/9pNeYVH.jpg

A lot of them are untextured. The same parts appear later, all textured, in the list. I can't figure out where these are coming from. I've deleted and reinstalled EPL and the whole mod build is fresh.

I suspect Active Texture Management might be doing it, since these parts are somehow in front of B9's, but I can't figure how to fix that, if that's even the case, and only EPL is affected.

not sure exactly but I believe this is something from ksp itself. After 0.25 update certain texture files are having issues loading. Idk exactly what parts those are that you are showing. But I have had this same plain white parts texture happen with a few other mods. It's completely random and sometimes when you load again they are back to normal.

[Kerba Fett]

Thanks for the advice guys. I found the setting in my persistence file and changed it. I haven't tried it, but I should now get instant builds. (except for all the time I spend mining ore, smelting it, and making rocket parts)

[goldenpsp]

Thanks for the advice guys. I found the setting in my persistence file and changed it. I haven't tried it, but I should now get instant builds. (except for all the time I spend mining ore, smelting it, and making rocket parts)

Let us know if it works. I have not found that setting to fix my issues.

[SlimJim89]

SlimJim89: if you enable timed builds, you can start building with 0 parts (though you won't get far). The ship will be ready to spawn (instantly) once all the parts have been consumed by the pad ("Finalize Build").

Thanks! Will keep it in mind!

[archont]

I'm having a problem with the EL, wondering if anybody has an idea what it might be.

I'm using the mods construction time, MKS, joint reinforcement, KW, karbonite, NEAR, SCANSat, Mechjeb, Fineprint, Infernal robotics, NavHud, ProcFairings, Stationscience, Partcatalog, ScienceAlert, SelectRoot, RCSBuildAid, the NearFuture pack, Active Texture Management and TAC LS.

Whenever I try to load a ship, a null craft is spawned and the load menu closes without any selection being made. The null vessel doesn't inherit parent velocity and quickly flies away when I try this in orbit. There's only one launchpad available in the menu, and that's vab-0. I can't get a vessel to load into EL, it just spawns a null vessel and closes the load menu.

Loading the null vessel results in a black screen. Debug log complains about this being an uninitialized object.

Using EL 4.4.0. Previous version was wiped, so there are no file conflicts.

[RoverDude]

FYI - wrapping up the last models for native MKS->EPL integration

Here's a screenie of one of the new modules (this one is used as a workshop, also for all of the manufacturing bits).

And here's the new mobile launchpad (pre-texturing, just testing out all of the model bits) with a Kerbal 2 fresh out of the oven. The bed is shown in the deployed position, but it can also fold down for stowage.

[Tabris]

@Roverdude,

Now we just need some wheels capable of carrying these monsters of Construction

[Hevak]

FYI - wrapping up the last models for native MKS->EPL integration

Here's a screenie of one of the new modules (this one is used as a workshop, also for all of the manufacturing bits).

http://i.imgur.com/hgFKUgr.png

And here's the new mobile launchpad (pre-texturing, just testing out all of the model bits) with a Kerbal 2 fresh out of the oven. The bed is shown in the deployed position, but it can also fold down for stowage.

http://i.imgur.com/xj7JnNW.png

All the new models look great Roverdude. Just a quick question about the folding. Will it fold through it's own configs? Or will that require the robotics mod to be used for folding to work?

[Yaivenov]

ETA: Sorry, wrong thread.

[riocrokite]

FYI - wrapping up the last models for native MKS->EPL integration

Here's a screenie of one of the new modules (this one is used as a workshop, also for all of the manufacturing bits).

And here's the new mobile launchpad (pre-texturing, just testing out all of the model bits) with a Kerbal 2 fresh out of the oven. The bed is shown in the deployed position, but it can also fold down for stowage.

Great models!

Is this mobile repair shop going to work like MKS mobile repair shop or differently? I guess the second bigger module is mobile workshop?

[RoverDude]

@Tabris - looking at the Kerabal Foundries wheels to see how well they do.

@Hevak - Just an animation, same as the current Launchpad 2.

@Yaivenov - A week or so

@riocrokite - some (not all) MKS bits are changing appearance, and I am merging EPL workshop functionality into all of the refining bits. Lower crew (4 vs 10), but higher efficiency and multi-purpose. So you would have your refinery (smelter), fabricator, and your machine/rocket parts plant.

[riocrokite]

@riocrokite - some (not all) MKS bits are changing appearance, and I am merging EPL workshop functionality into all of the refining bits. Lower crew (4 vs 10), but higher efficiency and multi-purpose. So you would have your refinery (smelter), fabricator, and your machine/rocket parts plant.

Sounds interesting. I'm now thinking about doing something to discourage people to get rocketparts from kerbin instead of building mining and processing capacities on site.

Possible ideas:

- increasing rocketparts mass and volume so you would transportation would be more cumbersome and not so compact as it is already

- increasing rocketparts price so it would cost more to transport and build something when hauling them from kerbin (affects only career mode)

- disabling 'filling tank' with rocketparts and metal on kerbin; disabling all resources on kerbin so you're forced to go extraplanetary for rare metals / exotic minerals

btw how to ping you via irc?

[taniwha]

I'm having a problem with the EL, wondering if anybody has an idea what it might be.

I'm using the mods construction time, MKS, joint reinforcement, KW, karbonite, NEAR, SCANSat, Mechjeb, Fineprint, Infernal robotics, NavHud, ProcFairings, Stationscience, Partcatalog, ScienceAlert, SelectRoot, RCSBuildAid, the NearFuture pack, Active Texture Management and TAC LS.

Whenever I try to load a ship, a null craft is spawned and the load menu closes without any selection being made. The null vessel doesn't inherit parent velocity and quickly flies away when I try this in orbit. There's only one launchpad available in the menu, and that's vab-0. I can't get a vessel to load into EL, it just spawns a null vessel and closes the load menu.

Loading the null vessel results in a black screen. Debug log complains about this being an uninitialized object.

Using EL 4.4.0. Previous version was wiped, so there are no file conflicts.

This is a bug in ScienceAlert which has been fixed in 1.8.1.

Sounds interesting. I'm now thinking about doing something to discourage people to get rocketparts from kerbin instead of building mining and processing capacities on site.

Possible ideas:

- increasing rocketparts mass and volume so you would transportation would be more cumbersome and not so compact as it is already

- increasing rocketparts price so it would cost more to transport and build something when hauling them from kerbin (affects only career mode)

- disabling 'filling tank' with rocketparts and metal on kerbin; disabling all resources on kerbin so you're forced to go extraplanetary for rare metals / exotic minerals

btw how to ping you via irc?

RocketParts density (mass) is actually higher than it should be, and making it higher would actually make it easier to launch from Kerbin. Lowering the mass would make it harder because you would then need bigger tanks or many flights because EL works off RocketParts mass, not resource units.

RocketParts cost is based on the cost of fuel tanks in KSP (giving tanks a 20% markup) so changing the cost of parts would mess things up.

Disabling filling of RocketParts (or other resources that lead to RocketParts) is fairly reasonable, but if you disable mining of the resources on Kerbin, how do you justify KSC?

That said, I have to ask: why? What purpose does preventing players from shipping parts from Kerbin serve? Disabling filling of parts and related resources does serve a puprose: it forces the player to get out and explore Kerbin. Possibly my best mission ever was a 550km (one way!) ground-trip to the nearest ore deposit. The round trip, including flying out extra RTGs because I had forgotten power for my auger, and the mining itself, took about 22h on the MET, or five days playing (many crashes, both of KSP and my truck: yay for quicksave). I then smelted the ore at KSC, loaded the metal onto ships (via KAS) and flew it to the waiting freighter in LKO, and flew that to Minmus. That 11t of ore produced 8t of metal, which produced just enough parts to build enough storage to build a mining smelter unit (this was before timed builds). Flying up auger and smelter was unreasonable because I use FAR, so I had to build them on Minmus. Disabling mining on Kerbin would have removed the potential for a lot of fun. We didn't have tweakables then, either

However, I chose to allow filling tanks with ore, metal or parts (though they default to empty) because I figured it was better to encourage rather than force.

As for pinging someone on IRC: just mention the person's IRC name in a channel in which the person is lurking.

[riocrokite]

This is a bug in ScienceAlert which has been fixed in 1.8.1.

RocketParts density (mass) is actually higher than it should be, and making it higher would actually make it easier to launch from Kerbin. Lowering the mass would make it harder because you would then need bigger tanks or many flights because EL works off RocketParts mass, not resource units.

Thanks for replying! Dunno if it was clear but I wrote mostly in respect to my new mod that is mining extension for USI/EPL.

Ah, I didn't know that. Then it makes sense to possibly lower mass of rocket parts or capacity of tanks.

RocketParts cost is based on the cost of fuel tanks in KSP (giving tanks a 20% markup) so changing the cost of parts would mess things up.

Current price of rocket parts is something about 2k for 1t. This makes a situation when constructing 100t aircraft costs you 200k no matter what parts are inside. And this is okay for standard tech rockets. But if we think about more expensive stuff like MKS or NFT or FTT modules (starlifter reactor that costs normally 526k without fuel but only around 55k when constructed of rocket parts) it makes rocket parts quite unbalanced.

I know there is no easy workaround and restricting tweaking rocket parts is gameplay negative. Maybe if you construct rocket from rocket parts you have to pay the difference between the price of rocket and price of rocket parts? But this isn't ideal and real either. I'm mostly for increasing price for rocket parts. And/or adding one more ingredient to baking rocket parts (below).

Disabling filling of RocketParts (or other resources that lead to RocketParts) is fairly reasonable, but if you disable mining of the resources on Kerbin, how do you justify KSC?

About mining -> what about situation where all Kerbin resource areas are more or less developed so you cannot just land and mine where you want (like in real world). But yah it kills gameplay. I dunno. Lately I'm thinking about having one more resource (something like MKS rare metals) needed along with metal to make rocket parts. So you're at least restricted to MKS output or my machinery in respect to that resource That would also add realism (rocket parts as alloys that include rare earth metals). To extend it further; you have metal and rare metals; you can smelt them into alloys and then either deliver to kerbin (sell, profit) or use alloys to make rocket parts (that cost much less but you can build spaceships from them).

That said, I have to ask: why? What purpose does preventing players from shipping parts from Kerbin serve? Disabling filling of parts and related resources does serve a puprose: it forces the player to get out and explore Kerbin. Possibly my best mission ever was a 550km (one way!) ground-trip to the nearest ore deposit. The round trip, including flying out extra RTGs because I had forgotten power for my auger, and the mining itself, took about 22h on the MET, or five days playing (many crashes, both of KSP and my truck: yay for quicksave). I then smelted the ore at KSC, loaded the metal onto ships (via KAS) and flew it to the waiting freighter in LKO, and flew that to Minmus. That 11t of ore produced 8t of metal, which produced just enough parts to build enough storage to build a mining smelter unit (this was before timed builds). Flying up auger and smelter was unreasonable because I use FAR, so I had to build them on Minmus. Disabling mining on Kerbin would have removed the potential for a lot of fun. We didn't have tweakables then, either

However, I chose to allow filling tanks with ore, metal or parts (though they default to empty) because I figured it was better to encourage rather than force.

As for pinging someone on IRC: just mention the person's IRC name in a channel in which the person is lurking.

Cheers.

Why discourage shipping rocket parts from Kerbin?

To slightly discourage situations when player building mining operation will go with :

-> 1 workshop, tons of rocket parts in hexcans, 1 tank for scrap metal, then build everything on planet

rather than:

-> mining augers, crusher, concentrator, smelter, storage tanks, power source for them to operate, ore augers, etc etc needed to run those ops.

While it might weight more or less the same, landing huge hexcans of rocket parts is infinitely logistically easier than deploying preconstructed machinery on the planet.

All in all for career mode I'm inclined to boost price of rocket parts 2x or 3x. So you either take logostical hard route or pay more cash. If someone plays science mode it doesn't concern him.

While we are on topic I'm thinking about boosting karbonite usage on site for power generators. Right now one FTT/MKS reactor sets you up to 2000 U/s which is balanced with rocket propulsions but not with karbonite generators.

Simplest solution imho would be to increase dramatically cost of enriched uranium so at least in career mode you would calculate whether to pay a lot for hands-free nuclear power generator or take cheap karbonite one (or build uranininte->enriched uranium facilities).

Edited December 3, 2014 by riocrokite

[goldenpsp]

Thanks for replying! Dunno if it was clear but I wrote mostly in respect to my new mod that is mining extension for USI/EPL.

Yes please keep that in your own mod.

[archont]

This is a bug in ScienceAlert which has been fixed in 1.8.1.

Thank you very much, it would've taken me a while to figure that one out. Wouldn't suspect that mod to interfere with EPL.

[RoverDude]

So for clarity (at least on my side) and to limit hijacking Taniwha's thread.

I will be keeping every part of EL intact, to include resource prices, etc. just because it's downright neighborly, and I already lock into EL pricing and masses for Ore and Metal.

The only change from my integration pack will be the path to rocket parts, which will have a longer production chain, but at that point operate exactly as EL operates today.

I'll do some math and if for some reason the cost/mass ratio of RocketParts feels off, I'll just ping Taniwha and see how he feels about it, but ultimately respect where he's going since (again, speaking purely from my end) my intent is to extend not conflict or replace EPL, because it's a pretty sweet mod as it is.

[taniwha]

There's a reason the high-productivity workshop is as expensive as it is (sure, it winds up being a one-off cost). EL isn't about just building stuff, it's also about financial independence (which requires initial investment).

Your point about mining sites being off-limits makes sense as a justification for KSC.

EL's resources are actually place-holders (though they might be kept for simple-mode, dunno yet). I have plans for requiring all sorts of resources to build a rocket, depending on the parts involved. Support for this is already in EL, for the most part: the GUI and construction code actually know nothing about RocketParts. All they know is two lists: one for required resources (used to build the hull), the other for optional resources (used to fill tanks). It is only the calculation of the required resources that is hard-coded to RocketParts. I have plans for adding part "recipes" that are determined by looking at part modules and resources (different stored resources may need different materials to hold them), or optionally specified in the part.cfg. I haven't had time to implement it yet, so pull requests welcome .

To slightly discourage situations when player building mining operation will go with :

-> 1 workshop, tons of rocket parts in hexcans, 1 tank for scrap metal, then build everything on planet

rather than:

-> mining augers, crusher, concentrator, smelter, storage tanks, power source for them to operate, ore augers, etc etc needed to run those ops.

I guess you don't use FAR One of the main reasons I got into EL in the first place (I took over from Skykooler when he got too busy with other stuff) was the impracticality of getting really big stuff into space with FAR, and my disgust at what stock drag allows. Thus most of the changes I've made to EL have been to encourage exactly what you want to discourage: fly up a seed consisting of a minimum of facilities and enough resources to bootstrap a full-blown operation. Much of the rest has been to make kerbals more useful (ie, encourage manned flights and EVA).

Doing a seed operation is not as easy as it sounds. Metal and Ore are dense, and so can cost a lot in delta-v if one gets greedy (at 7.8x the density of LFO, things can get deceptive quickly). RocketParts are fluffy (half the density of LFO) and thus need large (ie, heavy) tanks to hold them, making the ship difficult to maneuver (maneuverability is inversely proportional to the square of the size: a small tank holding 60t of metal will be easier to maneuver than a large tank holding 60t of parts). If everything needed is landed in one go, then the ship will be rather large and difficult to maneuver. If multiple flights are used to ship things in, then precision landing is required. I think everything balances out quite nicely.

On top of that, the survey system was designed with facilitating seed operations as a prime function (dealing with uneven terrain is another big one). Seed operations are the reason the smaller augers and smelters exist.

Also, don't forget that as kerbals and time are required (for timed builds, which I've made the default for the next release), anybody using a life-support mod has extra challenges in getting set up. Even with insta-build, there's the time required to mine, smelt and make parts (though kerbals aren't required for that).

Do consider whether you may be barking up the wrong tree in regards to making things more challenging.

[riocrokite]

Yes please keep that in your own mod.

That's my intention. All rebalance changes will be kept to my mod via module manager so no changing other mods. Sorry, if someone got confused since I like to stir some constructive discussion from time to time

[riocrokite]

There's a reason the high-productivity workshop is as expensive as it is (sure, it winds up being a one-off cost). EL isn't about just building stuff, it's also about financial independence (which requires initial investment).

Your point about mining sites being off-limits makes sense as a justification for KSC.

EL's resources are actually place-holders (though they might be kept for simple-mode, dunno yet). I have plans for requiring all sorts of resources to build a rocket, depending on the parts involved. Support for this is already in EL, for the most part: the GUI and construction code actually know nothing about RocketParts. All they know is two lists: one for required resources (used to build the hull), the other for optional resources (used to fill tanks). It is only the calculation of the required resources that is hard-coded to RocketParts. I have plans for adding part "recipes" that are determined by looking at part modules and resources (different stored resources may need different materials to hold them), or optionally specified in the part.cfg. I haven't had time to implement it yet, so pull requests welcome .

I guess you don't use FAR One of the main reasons I got into EL in the first place (I took over from Skykooler when he got too busy with other stuff) was the impracticality of getting really big stuff into space with FAR, and my disgust at what stock drag allows. Thus most of the changes I've made to EL have been to encourage exactly what you want to discourage: fly up a seed consisting of a minimum of facilities and enough resources to bootstrap a full-blown operation. Much of the rest has been to make kerbals more useful (ie, encourage manned flights and EVA).

Doing a seed operation is not as easy as it sounds. Metal and Ore are dense, and so can cost a lot in delta-v if one gets greedy (at 7.8x the density of LFO, things can get deceptive quickly). RocketParts are fluffy (half the density of LFO) and thus need large (ie, heavy) tanks to hold them, making the ship difficult to maneuver (maneuverability is inversely proportional to the square of the size: a small tank holding 60t of metal will be easier to maneuver than a large tank holding 60t of parts). If everything needed is landed in one go, then the ship will be rather large and difficult to maneuver. If multiple flights are used to ship things in, then precision landing is required. I think everything balances out quite nicely.

On top of that, the survey system was designed with facilitating seed operations as a prime function (dealing with uneven terrain is another big one). Seed operations are the reason the smaller augers and smelters exist.

Also, don't forget that as kerbals and time are required (for timed builds, which I've made the default for the next release), anybody using a life-support mod has extra challenges in getting set up. Even with insta-build, there's the time required to mine, smelt and make parts (though kerbals aren't required for that).

Do consider whether you may be barking up the wrong tree in regards to making things more challenging.

Yes, thank you for broad clarification, I've learned a lot about EPL. Also your mod and USI are the reason why I started modding myself:)

Yah, valid points about exporting rocket parts. It differs with scenario and needs so limiting exporting would kill gameplay.

[Joshwoo70]

*giant wall of text*

To be honest roverdude.

HOW YOU MANAGE SO MANY MODS?

also I imagine mining > ore extraction > purifying > washing/cleaning > turn to metal > kerbal hammer in to rocket parts/3d printing rocketparts > rockets!

To me thats TOOO long.

*hears protesters requesting modular parts*

Taniwha can we have modular parts pls? It would be easier and less space wastage in the parts tab. Like searching for a single part will take a while in a big mod pack.

also Taniwha tell me what is progressive builds? When I off it, it insta builds ships?

Edited December 3, 2014 by Joshwoo69
all the edicts! MKVV