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.23 - Just not getting the progression-path for science labs.

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The lab just doesn't seem that well concieved -

In it's current iteration, the only point it really has is allowing a second transmission from the goo and materials lab containers, which allows for you to reach the 40% transmit limit for science without carrying a second set of the goo containers/labs (which is way lighter). So what is it for, really, when returning with samples provides the full value?

Personally, I think it would be much more sensible if you had specific experiments that could only be performed in said lab, either in orbit, or the SOI/surface of other bodies. Right now, it just seems like an aesthetic choice (which is fine...hello spacelab 74!), and not one that is really all that well thought out in gameflow.

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The idea is you'd park a science lab around (or on) the Mun, then hit all the different biomes with a smaller craft, returning to the lab to unload the science.

This way you're going back and forth between the Mun and your Mun lab, instead of the Mun and Kerbin.

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I just did a minmus hopper mission where I had 5 lander cans, 5 science jrs, 5 goos, 5 thermometers. I then hit five biomes, and returned to kerbin.

This mission would not have worked with available parts on the mun, so I see the benefit of the orbital lab as you describe.

What I don't understand is repeataility here. Before we had diminishing returns, yes? So returning two samples would give diminishing science. Do we get now nothing at all from repeatability?

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I think the lab would be much more useful if it could recover 100% science of any experiment, but at a very slow pace.

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I think the lab would be much more useful if it could recover 100% science of any experiment, but at a very slow pace.

This.

Anyway, I sapped the Minmus biomes with only 1 craft, it flew out to the biomes, !SCIENCE!, came back, my kerbal transferred the data over to another, stationary, craft. After the moving vessel ran out of fuel, jeb got into the ship with all the collected science,and and went home. 100 % science! no lab needed.

However, when other planets get biomes, a lab will be much more important

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This.

Anyway, I sapped the Minmus biomes with only 1 craft, it flew out to the biomes, !SCIENCE!, came back, my kerbal transferred the data over to another, stationary, craft. After the moving vessel ran out of fuel, jeb got into the ship with all the collected science,and and went home. 100 % science! no lab needed.

However, when other planets get biomes, a lab will be much more important

Wouldn't a lab have been useful there to scrub out the goo pods and materials bays for re-use?

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The idea is you'd park a science lab around (or on) the Mun, then hit all the different biomes with a smaller craft, returning to the lab to unload the science.

This way you're going back and forth between the Mun and your Mun lab, instead of the Mun and Kerbin.

Exactly. It's a hub. Like a refueling station, but for science. Look at biomes like the science-equivalent to moons.

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I don't quite fully understand it yet either. If you are going to make multiple trips to multiple biomes, then you have to bring the fuel there one way or another. Being that you can only take advantage of transmitting 2 sets of experiments, you'll have to bring back experiments to get the full value anyway.

I was hoping the Lab Module would be KSP's first part towards giving bases (orbit and/or surface) a reason other than just for fun. The ability to gather all available science with transmissions can make long-term commitments pay, at the expense of getting that Lab Module there in the first place. I guess I just don't see only 2 sets of transmissions being worth the effort.

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I agree, the bonus is hardly enough. I'd still use it for re-usability of the goo and the science jr, but I still wouldn't transmit when the values are so low. It needs to give way higher, around 80% at least for me personally to consider using it, or give bonus science for returning the samples as well, not just transmitting. Or make some experiments only and only possible for processing in the lab, some new experiments that would give much larger science points.

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I just don't get it either.

Given that it's far better to return results rather than transmit them (100% vs. ~30%?) then what's the point of the Science Lab if it just gets an extra 10% (100% vs ~40%.) Is that it?

I'm totally failing to see the point, tbh. :huh:

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I agree, the bonus is hardly enough. I'd still use it for re-usability of the goo and the science jr, but I still wouldn't transmit when the values are so low. It needs to give way higher, around 80% at least for me personally to consider using it, or give bonus science for returning the samples as well, not just transmitting. Or make some experiments only and only possible for processing in the lab, some new experiments that would give much larger science points.

Agreed. I think the transmit bonus should be doubled, and add the current bonus to returning samples. It should operate as a science refinery.

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One option with the lab (and this isn't a great one) is to use it to boost the transmission value of experiments, transmit them, then re-obtain the experiments and take them back to Kerbin. That will get you better returns than just using the lab as a 3.5-ton materials bay and goo canister cleaning device... assuming you can spare the fuel for multiple trips down, of course. Practically speaking, yeah, better to just use it to clean up experiments so you can run a super-light lander to multiple biomes and get the most out of the science you obtain doing so instead.

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I find it useful, though I do wish that it was able to generate science on its own. Or as others have said, have a bonus applied to it.

Like say you store an EVA sample in there of Mun dust. Give a messag eabout how you selected the best rocks for transport and if the experiment was worth say 10 science make it worth 12 instead.

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Practically speaking, yeah, better to just use it to clean up experiments so you can run a super-light lander to multiple biomes and get the most out of the science you obtain doing so instead.

I'd have to go with this. My lander can now be shaved of a lot of extra mass, and I don't have to send multiple missions, probes, etc. While I can't speak for anything past Duna yet, I'd assume the efficiency of packing the Science Lab with a light lander is going to save me more weight overall.

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When you need to do science on an inaccessible planet such as Tylo, that one lab will help a lot. It will help even more when cost limitations appear. Assuming Tylo gets as many biomes as Minmus or the Mün, you will save a massive amount of fuel by landing a lab on a rover, and driving the rover around to do science.

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Instead of doing transmission spamming, you just need to bring more one-shot science containers and you get the same effect during a landing and return mission. I made a large lander with a dozen or so goo canisters and a few science lab jr's and simply hopped from biome to biome, then returned ... almost as effective as the old spamming. I really don't see the use of the science lab. Maybe for interplanetary missions to buildup on the science a bit, but if you're in it just to max out the science as fast as possible, I don't get it either.

-- Dingbat.

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I'd have to go with this. My lander can now be shaved of a lot of extra mass, and I don't have to send multiple missions, probes, etc. While I can't speak for anything past Duna yet, I'd assume the efficiency of packing the Science Lab with a light lander is going to save me more weight overall.

It's still lighter for me to make a mothership with a bunch of dockable materials bay/goo/instruments that a light lander to grab and shuttle between the mothership and biome than using a single science module with a lab. Unless we're talking interplaneatry stuff with biomes in the future

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I think the lab would be much more useful if it could recover 100% science of any experiment, but at a very slow pace.

You mean it doesn't? I thought that was the purpose of it?

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The lab just doesn't seem that well concieved -

In it's current iteration, the only point it really has is allowing a second transmission from the goo and materials lab containers, which allows for you to reach the 40% transmit limit for science without carrying a second set of the goo containers/labs (which is way lighter). So what is it for, really, when returning with samples provides the full value?

Personally, I think it would be much more sensible if you had specific experiments that could only be performed in said lab, either in orbit, or the SOI/surface of other bodies. Right now, it just seems like an aesthetic choice (which is fine...hello spacelab 74!), and not one that is really all that well thought out in gameflow.

Don't forget that you can move data around now, too. Others have mentioned going back and forth between the different biomes on the Mun and a lab at the Mun already. But you don't have to transmit the results from the lab. Instead, you can EVA to take the science out of the goo and/or materials containers and move it to your return capsule, then use the lab to reset the containers to take back to a different biome. The return capsule can store one copy of the science results from each biome and at the end take all the data back to Kerbin for recovery.

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You mean it doesn't? I thought that was the purpose of it?

Yeah, me to. Then I docked my science lander to it and processed the experiments. The ONLY way to get science out of the material bay and goo container is to transmit. The lab does NOT automatically store processed experiments so you can get full return value. :(

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Glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks this. It seems that in almost any instance, you'd be better off just returning your experiments to Kerbin.

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The Science lab was a nice idea, but I think the execution needs a little more work. Prior to the science lab coming out, I was feeling like my space program was a one-man show. I had maxed out the tech tree 7 or 8 times, and Jeb was the only kerbal that ever got off the ground. Sadly, I don't think the science lab is going to change that.

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You're all missing the real point of it. It's to make your orbiting science station look really, really, cool!

IyxySgB.jpg

Other than that, yeah, it seems mostly pointless.

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It makes sense to me in the cleaning the experiments part. You run a flight to Jool, send down 1 lander to a moon, do science, reset the experiments and land on another moon, instead of lugging around 4 landers. I do wish the transmission boost were a bit higher but since people were abusing the transmission before it seems understandable. Transmission was over-powered, now it's near worthless, we're still looking for that middle-ground.

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