Four things for pro KGV*

[phidauex]

All the talk of trying to "story away" the lack of genders is just silly - what matters is people's first impression glancing at the characters, which is overwhelmingly that they all appear male, with male names. Kerbals may be aliens, but humans are still humans, and WE are the ones playing the game.

Study after study shows that implicit biases strongly impact people's behavior. Explicit biases are ones you know you have, implicit biases are ones that you have, but that you don't think you have (or actually think you have the opposite). These implicit biases are affected, with no conscious control, by images that you see around you, and these changed biases measurably change your behavior. You don't realize that it is happening, which is why they are so insidious. Spend some time playing with the tools at Project Implicit, a Harvard research project that has been running for many years exploring this phenomenon: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/

The point is that by showing only male characters, you aren't making people think "Oh, only boys can do space", because that is an explicit bias. You ARE changing their implicit biases, which impacts their future behavior. By adding different kinds of characters you aren't being "PC" (which means being nice just to make people feel better, but without actually doing anything useful), you are making sure that everyone who plays the game gets the same feeling of personal satisfaction. It isn't about pandering to any political group, it is about using research to make your games more fun and successful for a greater number of people.

[jcraft]

Forced diversity is nothing more than another form of discrimination. Certainly a lesser form than traditional racism or sexism, but discrimination nonetheless.

Of course I cannot say for certain what sarkun had in mind but I'm pretty sure that his "more diversity is always better" was about diversity in terms of game aesthetics (different looking kerbals = more diverse game / every kerbal is a clone = less diverse game).

[Whirligig Girl]

'

This.

There are in fact very, very few things we can even guess about the totally alien Kerbal biology. As far as I can tell, the best guesses are:

1. Kerbals are not native to Kerbin or anywhere else in the Kerbol system because they have to wear spacesuits when they go outside on all planets and moons, including Kerbin. Therefore, we have no idea at all about their native habitat, so can make no assumptions regarding their metabolisms and life support needs, and gender is part of this.

2. Kerbals obviously have very little life support needs, because they've routinely been in space for decades of game time in 1-man pods and yet come out just fine. This raises the possibility that they go dormant/hibernate/whatever.

3. Kerbals have no noses and (when not screaming) generally keep their mouths shut all the time. So either they don't breathe at all (and thus their spacesuits are merely to maintain the desired pressure using any available gas) or they breathe through their skin or some other organ we're not aware of. In any case, it's certain they don't breath oxygen because they have to wear spacesuits on Kerbin and Laythe.

4. Kerbals survive falls, G forces, and exposure to rocket exhaust and explosions that would annihilate all known human-like lifeforms. This definitely suggests that Kerbals are made of entirely different materials than humans and so require entirely different inputs.

5. When Kerbals do somehow die, they appear to release a cloud of spores like when you stomp on a puffball. This definitely lends support to them being some type of fungi. Given that there has never been an official sighting of anything resembling gender amongst Kerbals, this could indeed be how they reproduce. And note that Kerbals all have the same last name, which could be their own recognition that they're all scions from the spores of the 1st Kerbal.

All in all, I think it's simply our own humanocentric conceit that causes us to use gender-specific pronouns for Kerbals. We really should call them "it" instead of "he". That would solve the problem some people have with seeing a need for genders. And while we're at it, abolish all biology-related things like ever putting life support in KSP .

1: Kerbals on EVA report say they don't think they need the space suit on Kerbin. Engineers walk on the ground without a spacesuit with the VAB doors wide open.

2: Life support is a planned feature.

3: You can see Kerbals breathing in and out, their arms move and their torsos inflate and deflate.

4:

-Falls: I Agree

-G-Forces: I believe G-Force damage is planned

-Rocket Exhaust: Spacesuits protect them.

-Explosions: Ditto

-Different Materials: No.

5: It's because kerbals are a part/vessel, and they are not volatile. When a part gets destroyed and does not explode, it is a grey puff of smoke.

[BubbaWilkins]

No one is forcing you to play with them. If you don't like them, don't hire them from the recruitment pool. Ignore them after they're added and pretend kerbals are an advanced genderless fungus and they all happen to look vaguely male if it makes you happy.

Personally, I want my little cousin to play the game, and not constantly bug me about why she can't have a female crew commander on her missions.

Then you have failed to educate her on why it shouldn't be important rather than reinforce the opinion that there is some sort of discrimination in play because they don't exist.

[Whirligig Girl]

What if we say that Kerbals are neither women nor men? No gender, just kerbals.

Did your teacher notice that they, also, have no houses where to live? That they have probably no worker protection system? No social insurance? No STATE?

Cities are planned, and yes she did notice that, and I told her that cities are planned.

[Whirligig Girl]

I personally think your teacher is an annoying radical feminist that gets offended that there are no females in a game about SPACE where the characters have no gender.

I laughed so loud. My teacher is not at all a radical feminist. She surely believes in equality, but she's not radical, and not a feminist.

[I_Killed_Jeb]

Then you have failed to educate her on why it shouldn't be important rather than reinforce the opinion that there is some sort of discrimination in play because they don't exist.

..wow... I wonder, if KSP were actually a game featuring human characters, you would espouse the same view. I bet you would. To take this further, I wonder if all the astronauts in the game were white, and people asked for other races to be included, you'd espouse this same view. I bet you would.

The education that this little girl needs and will get is the amount of sheer gender bias that people don't even realize they are carrying around in their day to day lives

[_Aramchek_]

Making everything about gender/*** is the antithesis of gender equality.

Stop trying to frame it as something it's not, this isn't genuinely about gender or equality, this is about some people want something and will use "special" logic to try and cry wolf that somehow, this game not having female kerbals is an affront to humanity, just to get what they want.

Not because it genuinely has anything to do at all with equality on a societal level.

Gender/*** has zero place in a game where you cobble rockets together and fling them in to space.

Again, leave the red herring and straw men arguments out of this, and lose the ridiculous "anyone who doesn't want female kerbals is against equality" whining.

Stop trying to artificially justify something you want, we all have things I'm sure we'd like to see personally that won't make it in to the game, the difference being that gender has zero impact or use in the game compared to some other ideas.

[Whirligig Girl]

What do any of you know about discrimination? Ever been judged by your race? Forced to the sidelines not because you're slow but because you're a white guy in a black school?

Are you spying on me? Those two things are exactly true.

[Whirligig Girl]

But I want my Jessica Rabbit Kerbal!

I also want windows steaming up due to ermm....extra curricular...ermm 'activities' with the male crew. I want to have to dispose of sanitary waste via a new part. I WANT IT ALL!

Why are you making this argument look bad?

[sanoj688]

I find the whole 'why no females in KSP' seriously ANNOYING.

Is that really something you care about? WHY?! WHO. CARES?!

Why would the addition of female characters improve ANYTHING that you can't achieve already with your IMAGINATION?!

You might ask: "Well why the hell do you care that I care?"

Well sir, I'd rather have the Devs work on some gameplay features or bug fixes or whatever than spend their time on IRRELEVANT stuff like gender.

It's a SPACE GAME, not a real life simulation of earth.

Jezus.

[Whirligig Girl]

What about blue and red kerbals?

That's a good idea, although a slightly orange tinted yellow would match kerbals better than red. Perhaps the Kerbal generator could have values for body morphing from 0-1 on the XYZ Axis, options for Head morphing on the Height and Radius, Leg morphing on Height, arm morphing on height, color transition from a Gradient like this: and a 1 or 0 for Male or Female head shape. Hell, maybe even add different hair textures from 1-10, and different hair colors from a certain range. All of this random generation would create a nice variable with Kerbals.

[Whirligig Girl]

My 5 year old thanks jeb is a girl. Because "she is funny". It does not stop her playing/enjoying the game with me.

Fine give out girl names, but really they are green bags of goo that like to be strapped to rockets and do science.

Are they male/female/asexual? Are the aliens in close encounters of the 3rd kind m/f/a? Does it really matter? Do they have to be any?

That's funny. Tells a little bit of Child psychology there.

[Whirligig Girl]

NO

Maybe

Cute, not over-the-top

YES ABSOLUTELY

[Sirrobert]

Three pages old and the trolls are rolling out already.

I had a few ideas and suggestions but I'm not going to bother. How old are most of you? 12? 15? 17? What do any of you know about discrimination? Something you saw on tv? Read about in school? Ever been judged by your race? Or your gender? Forced to the sidelines not because you're slow but because you're a white guy in a black school?

Just stop regurgitation what you've heard other people say on the radio and consider what it would be like to be excluded not because of ability but because of something superficial.

And here we have the perfect example of why black people are impossible to be racist. 'I have been discriminated, and thus I have to get a free pass'. Nope, that's not how equality works. Try again next time.

PS: maybe you shouldn't discriminate on age like that

She enjoys astronomy, but prefers to play a game that she feels she can relate to the characters more. I see no problem at all with her view point. She does enjoy several very geeky kids games, but always chooses a female avatar.

Soooo, she can relate to a tiny green figure with a gigantic head and BOOBS, but a tiny green figure with a gigantic head, nope, that's impossible. Someone's being a little obnoxious.

Apart from the fact that they walk on 2 legs, Kerbals look as much like us as plants do. No wait, plants are MORE related to us than Kerbals. Since we live on the same planet. Can you tell the difference between a male plant and a female plant?

If your awnser was 'But Sirrobert, plants don't have genders'. Than congrats. You figured out what's wrong with the argument of female Kerbals. You are also wrong. There are species of plants that have genders. Marijuana is an example that springs to mind.

Hell, Kerbals could have 5 genders for all we know

[Col_Jessep]

What I find really discriminating and offensive is that nobody even mentioned that there are no cats in KSP. I want KATS!

[BubbaWilkins]

At the end of KerbalKon, I believe HarvestR said there might not be Female Kerbals because he was afraid that what Squad came up with would not be what people wanted. My response: It's your JOB to make things up for the game.

When I showed my teacher at school Kerbal Space Program, she immediately noticed that there were no females.

Females wouldn't require a whole lot to implement, DanRosas might make up a new head and HarvestR or C7 might make that head appear on a Kerbal with some chance, and maybe adding a few more suffixes to the name generator that only apply to females.

It would stop these threads from happening.

Edit: On the subject of what heads would look like: http://www.spaceflightonline.net/images/kerbals.jpg No lipstick, no long hair, just a less masculine jaw and forehead.

*Kerbal Gender Variety

Just looks like the difference between old Elvis and young Elvis. Nothing feminine to me about either of them.

[Whirligig Girl]

May I remind you all to please tread carefully in this thread. It's a touchy subject and things can get out of hand quickly. Let's not cross the line, ok?

Thanks for not locking.

[Sirrobert]

Jesus christ man are you really arguing that genders in a space game is forced diversity?

I said you are artificially justifying kerbals are all men. And yea, when the kerbals are clearly meant to look like men, and you continue to foam at the mouth about how they aren't gendered, you ARE justifying it. Once again, do you refer to kerbals as "it" every single time? Dubious. I'm done responding to you as your ad hominem attacks and extremely loose grip on logic and reality makes it a poor yield endeavor for me.

Personally I refere to my Kerbal as he. Did you know that most people refere to something without a gender as 'he'?

If I don't know what gender a dog I meet on the streets is, I call it a he. That's how I call my Kerbals. He in the gender neutral sense.

It is reserved for non living objects

[zynar]

As an experiment they should replace all kerbal models out for ones with female characteristics and see what people say.

IMO the game is still in development and we do know female kerbals exist (kerbal creator) it just might be awhile before integrating the KSP crews become a high priority. Good idea for a mod though.

[sanoj688]

I am not justifying anything, I am saying there is absolutely no reason why gender is or should be a part of the game.

Nails. Heads. Hitting them.

This isn't even about male versus female. It's about people who care about genders and those who don't!

Frankly if you care about gender in a game that has ab-so-lu-te-ly nothing to do with it. You have a problem. An issue. Go fix it. Leave us out of it.

[dr_jt]

What about kerbals of color? Other than green that is. How about gay kerbals? I'm part Native American and would really like to see some sort of "native" or indigenous kerbals. Speaking of indigenous kerbals, lets not forget kerbals of different ethnic groups. I can't imagine that kerbal are all one race. What about kid kerbals? We don't see any tours of KSC being given to school aged kerbals. Maybe that would be a nice touch to add atmosphere to KSC. Which means we could also have hippie protesters and OWS type protesters marching picket lines and blocking traffic. What ever happen to kerbal dog or monkey equivalents? It would be nice to do missions that send dogs and monkeys into space first.

[mdatspace]

I wonder why we even care. This game is about rockets, not kerbals or gender.

[Luckless]

If the apparent gender of a character matters so little, the required modifications to the head are so minor, and changes to any related code very simple, then why do so many people put so much effort into arguing against the change?

This isn't a complex reworking of a physics model. This is a binary choice of whether or not to draw a character with head A or head B, and which pool of names to pick a random string from. I would do it myself, but frankly that would involve digging around in a system I've yet to play with and having to find suitable 3D modelling software (and relearn how to use it), and it would be far faster for someone on the dev team to make the adjustments instead.

[British_Rover]

Sounds accurate to me.

I understand feminism from the point of view that there needs to be equality between men and woman, where relevant. Men should not be classed as "better" than women, and vice versa. We should live in a fair world where men and women have the same quality of life as each other. But 100% equality that radical feminists strive for does not work.

(Example of why it does not work: If equality was 100%, why should men hold the door for women? And why should pregnant women get any time off work? That's not fair on men, we can't get pregnant so it's not our fault we don't get time off work! UNFAIR!!! See my point? Big difference between equality and just being stupid. Men and women ARE different, and therefor things will never be truly equal, you need to make exceptions for both sides.)

Men can get time off from work to be with a child after he/she is born. It is part of The FMLA(Family Medical Leave Act) in the US and most other developed countries have the similar rules. FMLA is un-paid leave but many companies provide for paid maternity/paternity leave in addition to the required unpaid FMLA leave.

Last year one of my employees took about ten days off to be with his daughter after she was born and I will take at least a week off when my daughter is born later this month.