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Frank Wolf going to retire?


Cesrate
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So good, so in future the cooperation between NASA and China could become better, at least not worse than what is now - absolute zero. And we've started to get tired of his anti-China opinions too. So happy retiring and enjoy the retired life, Wolf.

Edited by Cesrate
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We can't get too much into politics here guys. Going to try it keep it to just facts about the issues and not opinions.

But Wolf's concern with China is over Human rights. He isn't the only person with that issue, there have been UN resolutions condemning some Chinese practices towards some minority groups. You can do you own research on "Chinese Human Rights" if you want to know more on that subject. In any event, his ban on cooperation with them for ONLY in the 2011 budget and for that year. Congress wasn't even able to pass a full budget since then, though we will have one this year - I haven't heard if Wolf put in any such stipulation this year. I doubt it, because the budget negotiations were rather contentious.

But even without the Congressional ban, there are a lot of issues between the US and Chinese government that is going to prohibit cooperation on much at all. Chinese Hackers attacking the Federal Election Committee and the near collision of CN and US warships as well as contention over the airspace around islands claimed by both China and Japan are all recent examples of the rift between the two governments. That is unlikely to change because we're close allies with Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan and we're the 'other superpower' that China is competing with.

(I am sure there are examples of US spy agencies behaving badly towards China too, the list above isn't comprehensive or intentionally one-sided, its just what I recall from recent news stories)

My opinion here, trying not to be political:

So I wish it were possible to cooperate too, as I think space science and exploration should evolve to be border-less. We're not there yet, though. In my opinion, we're going to need to see a major shift in International relations in the region for things to change much. And the US are unlikely to ignore them (since it would endanger their allies) so its probably up to the Chinese government to make some changes. But its not really clear if doing so would benefit them right now.

Edited by Tiberion
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So good, so in future the cooperation between NASA and China could become better, at least not worse than what is now - absolute zero. And we've started to get tired of his anti-China opinions too. So happy retiring and enjoy the retired life, Wolf.

Nobody in their right mind hates Chinese space program or the advancement of science and technology. Nobody in their right mind hates Chinese people.

What everyone sane should hate is the brutality of China's internal and external policy towards minorities and a disregard for human life. Human life is very cheap in China if you're nobody. If you consider yourself to be a humanist who cares about people not getting killed, tortured, regardless of anything, if you respect human birth given rights, you can not support the Chinese government.

Remember the Tiananmen massacre? Or they don't mention it in the history textbooks?

This politically inclined thread is going to waste, obviously, but I just had to say this.

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That was in the late 80s, even the USA have his dark political history....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

Different scale, but still, same basis.

Submitted without comment, you can decide for yourself:

2012 Human Rights Watch report (Covers the year 2011): China - US

2013 Human Rights Watch report (Covers the year 2012): China - US

One caveat: The US Federal Government has limited powers on domestic issues, where each individual state has powers that supercede. So keep in mind the differences in government styles.

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What everyone sane should hate is the brutality of China's internal and external policy towards minorities and a disregard for human life. Human life is very cheap in China if you're nobody. If you consider yourself to be a humanist who cares about people not getting killed, tortured, regardless of anything, if you respect human birth given rights, you can not support the Chinese government.

Remember the Tiananmen massacre? Or they don't mention it in the history textbooks?

Life is used to be cheap in China but not for now and for future. And, of course in history book that incident will not be mentioned. There's already GRC stuffs in history book, asking us to teach children more things like that?

That's enough, don't want to talk about it. The only thing I want to say is, Chinese gov is not as so good as someone said, but not as so bad as someone said either.

Plus, it's actually pretty good and efficient(?) to take "human rights" as the tool to attack other countries in politics.

Plus 2, as far as I know... Chinese are also not happy with US' external policy. … and China has grasped the chance to develop when US ignored China and focused on the Middle East, so things nowadays is a little different with 1990s.

Plus 3, use historical perspectives to analyse the history, that's what I learned in history class.

Oops, talked too much.

Edited by Cesrate
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Life is used to be cheap in China but not for now and for future. And, of course in history book that incident will not be mentioned. There's already GRC stuffs in history book, asking us to teach children more things like that?

That's enough, don't want to talk about it. The only thing I want to say is, Chinese gov is not as so good as someone said, but not as so bad as someone said either.

I really doubt it. With the population over 1 billion and totalitarism, there will be troubles.

I don't know what GRC stands for, but if you think Tiananmen massacre shouldn't be mentioned to children, you've got some twisted values incompatible with a free society. Probably thousands perished during those days, either being killed on the street or under torture in prisons, like what probably happened to the famous, so called "Tank Man" who used his body to stop a line or army tanks going towards the protesters.

tank-man-china-web.jpg?w=880

This man had some serious balls and may he rest in peace because that's the way how a country is loved.

No country is sacred and innocent, but there aren't many developed countries that hide such blatant crimes and shove totalitarism propaganda down their citizens' throats. USA is among the leading countries in the world responsible for many sickening crimes, but people there have the freedom to know and discuss such stuff. It is analyzed, there are university courses about such things, you can talk about it in the press without the fear of getting arrested, etc.

Granted, Chinese government is not as bad as the one in North Korea, but it is much closer to it than for example Norwegian one.

I understand you might get into trouble because your government censors your Web access (your access to Google is totally skewed), so know that I'm not trying to pull you into a discussion. I just needed to clear some things.

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Ahh, that famous pic... Has almost become a neta on Chinese Internet...Let's have a tank racing! Well, just a joke.

Oh, GRC or GCR(this may be the more common ab.) means The Grand Culture Revolution, the total internal disorder from 1966 to 1976.

Show my opinion about GRC and 6·4 incident:

Each leader has the image that the next generation of leaders want public to know. For Mao, he had a great contribution on liberating China (KMT used to have chance, but, uhh, they led up to their own failure), but also made lots of mistake(including ignoring the scientific truth of population and causing the burst of it) and held some dark political struggle to ensure his rule. And, the disaster GCR was caused by his political attack on Liu Shaoqi and misjudgement(although most of the disorder was made by "Gang of Four" but Mao was also to be blamed). Historians today think that he has 70 percent of credit and 30 percent of fault. As for Deng, he survived the GCR and led the "reform and opening-up" and directly led to the China's place in the world today. But he also bring the chances of corruption. Then is the burst of anger mainly from students(students are always the vanguards of the time, from the 5·4 movement to 6·4... Don't know how to comment on it.) then is the 6·4. This is a very vicious incident that completely unmatched to the image of Deng's gov and the theme of the era(development and the appeasing the conflicts).

And also in my opinion, China has had a deep reflection on GCR and other mistakes in the early ages inside and in the the public(and you can see some in history books) and has had a deep reflection on 6·4 inside(well, it should be deep...) but hasn't prepared for making it public. It's partially because, well, China has been following Deng from then on and never get rid of corruption problem. Though, the current leader, Xi Jinping has been actively tackling these problems. For the era of Hu, China is speeding up to develop in the "Golden Ten Years" while US is focusing on the Middle East so I guess the anti-corruption seemed to be like the secondary task then... Well, just a guess.

Another problem is the advancing of Internet and the drop of public trust because of some bad incidents. There were many rumors spreading on Internet, then the Internet just became a wasteyard. So awful that both gov and scientific community got awful so they started to clean up the rumors. Well, this seems to be off-topic, so continuing the topic...

Plus, IMO the top-layer of China gov get 7-8/10 since 1990s. And the middle-layer of the gov got... 5/10 maybe? Levels of Some officials were just suck.

I understand you might get into trouble because your government censors your Web access (your access to Google is totally skewed), so know that I'm not trying to pull you into a discussion. I just needed to clear some things.

Just noticed this line, first access to Google is not completly banned now unless you search for some censored word, second, I actually don't have that problem as I'm using ipv6 port in campus (and with Google proxy there's usually no problem even with other network), and third, IMO both you and I should be rejoice that only a few Chinese that know how to access YouTube now. Really, that's not joking and with multiple aspects of meanings...

And the fourth, Xi's gov seems to have tendency on loosing the censors - just seems to have.

To the point, if there were no rumors and slanders to China in foreign nets things would be better now. All right, though lots of us including me are VERY UNSATISFIED with the GFW.

Edited by Cesrate
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Alot of people here seem to have Anti-Chinese attitudes, it's kinda sad. We need to work together more for the good of the world. Or something like that.

I'm very excited about the progress of China in space, princely because there is no cooperation between them and NASA.

Lack of competition leads to stagnation.

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Off-topic:

My full opinion on history:

1. Admit history if it's true;

2. Use historical perspectives to analyse history;

3. And use history to guide future actions.

For example, after WWII German did well on 1, 2 and 3 so German turned to be a normal country to victims. However, Japan didn't do well on 1, and I don't know how they did on 2, and also didn't do well on 3 (Sorry about the offence, I like Japanese culture but the attempts of some right wing extremists to cover the history of invasion are just unacceptable), so Japan received lots of hates.

It's still sad that in contemporary world we're still struggling with hates between countries and nations while facing global problems and possibilities.

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It's nice to read your multifaceted and interesting opinion on Chinese history Cesrate. I'm glad that we have the opportunity to hear it straight from a citizen such as yourself. Life is experienced from many perspectives, and It's cool that the net gives us the opportunity to hear from our friends around the planet.

Now I just need to practice a few more languages... :)

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I just wish that the Chinese government would punish corporations for stealing U.S. intellectual property. That and giving a damn for human rights. And not exiling foreign press for trying to expose such practices.

They'd have to punish themselves, as it's the Chinese government's own intelligence services stealing those things for distribution to Chinese government owned companies...

And oh, those plastic toys you bought for your children for Christmas marked "made in China" were made in factories owned by the Chinese army, staffed with political prisoners working what's effectively as slave labour under threat of being beaten and tortured if they don't produce their quota (and that includes being starved to death), and the profits go towards buying the Chinese military more hardware to use against its own people, as well as for foreign aggression.

So effectively that toy may have bought the missile that shoots down a US Navy jet over the South China Sea when (not if) things get out of hand there.

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It's nice to read your multifaceted and interesting opinion on Chinese history Cesrate. I'm glad that we have the opportunity to hear it straight from a citizen such as yourself. Life is experienced from many perspectives, and It's cool that the net gives us the opportunity to hear from our friends around the planet.

That's why I hate the censorship, not only because it will take a bit more effort to share YouTube videos to friends - you banned the chance of slander but also banned the chance of communication.

But, frankly speaking, there may not be many ones who can be neutral to these histories and may not be many places where things can be objectively discussed.

And, in fact I don't like to talk about history, as I'm neither good at it nor interested in it. I'm living more in future I think.

Fun fact 1:

The students are the vanguards of the time, and the students in the college I'm in were the vanguards of the vanguards of the time, from the 5•4 movement to the protest against US Embassy after the bombing of Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia. Why? Because my college is nearer to the centre of Beijing~ Then is Liu Xiaobo, we actually have the trandition of rebellion~ Luckily there's Mo Yan to make a balance.

Fun Fact 2:

The ex-principal of the college in our neighbor is one of the major contributor to the Great Fire Wall of China. Once he was in the campus of THU, then the students there shouted... "XXX! You *********!" "May your child have no ass****!" Well, they were usually gentle...

Fun(?) Fact 3:

Edit: My memory had some mistakes... So this is the confirmed version:

In the early period of 6•4 incident, my father wanted to meet my mother and had to pass through Tian'anmen, but was grounded by my grandmother's sister.

Edited by Cesrate
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And oh, those plastic toys you bought for your children for Christmas marked "made in China" were made in factories owned by the Chinese army, staffed with political prisoners working what's effectively as slave labour under threat of being beaten and tortured if they don't produce their quota (and that includes being starved to death), and the profits go towards buying the Chinese military more hardware to use against its own people, as well as for foreign aggression.

So effectively that toy may have bought the missile that shoots down a US Navy jet over the South China Sea when (not if) things get out of hand there.

Nice fantasy but not necessarily to be the truth. You think China is equal to NK? I really doubt if there're enough political prisoners, and what's your definition on "own people" - are they armed murderers? And, "Made in China" mostly belongs to the private industries, and it's still too waste to use the profit of selling toys to buy weapons as Chinese industries can produce them themselves.

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And oh, those plastic toys you bought for your children for Christmas marked "made in China" were made in factories owned by the Chinese army

I don't think the army actually owns toy factories. China's economy is mostly capitalistic these days. It definitely has nothing to do with the classical definition of Communism or any of Marx's theories.

So effectively that toy may have bought the missile that shoots down a US Navy jet over the South China Sea when (not if) things get out of hand there.

US Navy jets have no business patrolling the South China Sea. But seriously, I don't think either country has any interest in shooting down each other's aircraft. Economic warfare would likely happen before any military conflict, and it would be mutually assured destruction for both sides.

It would be great to see a post from you without jingoistic ignorance.

Edited by Nibb31
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But Wolf's concern with China is over Human rights.

After Apollo-Soyuz and cooperation with another socialistic dictatorship I don't think this argument holds ground.

And please, USA is the last country to teach others about human rights with its long history of genocide (Native Americans), slavery, bigotry, racism and violence against the minorities. There are plenty of examples and as a USA citizen you probably know more of them than me. But human rights? Go to Iraq or Guantanamo if you want to learn something about human rights. Hell, what about Japanese American internment in 1942? And I don't even want to start talking about constant warfare - since the United States was founded in 1776, it has been at war during 217 out of 237 years of its existence. Anyone remember Obama getting Noble peace prize while leading two wars? Of course PRC is even worse (as godless commies :P) and it's only natural since USA is a modern western republic based on the Enlightenment ideas but come on, that doesn't give anyone the right to moralize - the last person to do this is some jingoistic hawkish cold war veteran WASP and one of the 1% senator :) Besides, it's obvious nobody gives a damn about human rights in China - USA governement is afraid of PRC stealing all their technology, that's the reason as you pointed it out. I don't even know how country de facto allied with Saudi Arabia can talk about respecting human rights.

But to stay on topic - it's a good thing IMHO that his going away. Sooner or later some cooperation will be required, even if only as a political gimmick to ease the tensions between two most powerful nations on Earth. And in the long term, I think that China won't have to steal American tech - it could be the other way around I think. And hey, cooperation is a must if Americans want China to let them into their lunar base in 2030s ;)

Edited by czokletmuss
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Fun(?) Fact 3:

In the early period of 6•4 incident, my father wanted to go to Tian'anmen to see what was happening, but was grounded by my grandmother. She's quite brilliant. What a pity she could never saw me.

Nice to see someone's father has similar experience, though my father really went there, if I remember it right when my father told me when I was only three.

Obviously my father escaped and so I would be here and type, but not ok for some of his budies.....

It seems that the students are not only vangards but also victums, because they don't really want to talk about that history anymore. Or at least my father and mother don't. (They met in their university.) It was a pain for them, because most of the students even didn't understant why they wanted to do so, maybe just because it was cool? I don't know, and I don't really want to know.

A little bit too much and too messy too, but just want to express how I feel...

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Just don't understand why Chinese people would talk about some history instead of saying "we should avoid this topic"....

Didn't the gov have told'em to do so?(JFK, Im mocking the gov...)

And do you even know that in Chinese text books they don't even teach physics in the right way......This is one of the worst thing that I feel sad about.

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After Apollo-Soyuz and cooperation with another socialistic dictatorship I don't think this argument holds ground.

And please, USA is the last country to teach others about human rights with its long history of genocide (Native Americans), slavery, bigotry, racism and violence against the minorities. There are plenty of examples and as a USA citizen you probably know more of them than me. But human rights? Go to Iraq or Guantanamo if you want to learn something about human rights. Hell, what about Japanese American internment in 1942? And I don't even want to start talking about constant warfare - since the United States was founded in 1776, it has been at war during 217 out of 237 years of its existence. Anyone remember Obama getting Noble peace prize while leading two wars? Of course PRC is even worse (as godless commies :P) and it's only natural since USA is a modern western republic based on the Enlightenment ideas but come on, that doesn't give anyone the right to moralize - the last person to do this is some jingoistic hawkish cold war veteran WASP and one of the 1% senator :) Besides, it's obvious nobody gives a damn about human rights in China - USA governement is afraid of PRC stealing all their technology, that's the reason as you pointed it out. I don't even know how country de facto allied with Saudi Arabia can talk about respecting human rights.

But to stay on topic - it's a good thing IMHO that his going away. Sooner or later some cooperation will be required, even if only as a political gimmick to ease the tensions between two most powerful nations on Earth. And in the long term, I think that China won't have to steal American tech - it could be the other way around I think. And hey, cooperation is a must if Americans want China to let them into their lunar base in 2030s ;)

Was it really necessary to come in and make a sarcastic, dismissive post? No one was moralizing. I linked to some sources and mostly left out opinion. you can read them yourself if you want, or not.

The fact is you can say those sorts of things about ANY nation's past. Each generation is supposed to learn from the past and improve. That's why as a human race we're closer than ever to coming together. There are still major issues to tackle though. One of China's is human rights. Not 200 years ago, or even 30 years ago, but today. Frank Wolf wasn't making things up, even if his way of fighting it was probably misguided. And today's modern world is vastly different than when Apollo-Soyuz happened. We are not locked in a decades-long cold war with China, nor on the brink of all-out war.

It's not about disliking the Chinese, its about disliking the policies of their government and how they treat their people. Just because they are doing cool things in space you shouldn't overlook them.

I have no doubt things are improving in China, as Cesrate described. That is great. The day when China is a part of the free world 100% will be amazing. What we can all do now is to befriend and encourage the Chinese people we do know and let them know we're thinking of them. But we absolutely want the governments of the free world to keep putting pressure on their government to reform too.

Without Frank Wolf, maybe the Congress won't take official stances on China's human rights anymore. It's probably not their place to do so - that's the State Department and the United Nations' job. Cooperation is still going ot be difficult though, because China still needs to want it. And they'll probably have to stop the industrial espionage and hacking attempts too.

And by the way, before you brag about the Chinese plans for a Moon Base, you might want to read up a little about their plans Not exactly the ideal example of international space cooperation, is it?

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Just don't understand why Chinese people would talk about some history instead of saying "we should avoid this topic"....

Didn't the gov have told'em to do so?(JFK, Im mocking the gov...)

Why can't we talk about it? It's acceptable to talk about the government even in Chinese network, as long as you are not spreading rumors or in an extreme.

And do you even know that in Chinese text books they don't even teach physics in the right way......This is one of the worst thing that I feel sad about.

I don't know what you are specifically pointing. If you are meaning high school physics in my opinion in physics classes most of the concepts are conveyed right, at least in the level of the current grade. Oh, the quality gaps between different schools should be considered, but textbooks are mostly correct.

In fact, despite of exam-oriented education system and heavy burden, elementary education in China is one of the world's most "high level" system... I'M NOT MEANING HIGHER EDUCATION.

One major problem of Chinese education is geographic differences in quality.

Edited by Cesrate
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Was it really necessary to come in and make a sarcastic, dismissive post? No one was moralizing. I linked to some sources and mostly left out opinion. you can read them yourself if you want, or not.

Necessary? Probably not but I feel like I should point it out.

The fact is you can say those sorts of things about ANY nation's past. Each generation is supposed to learn from the past and improve. That's why as a human race we're closer than ever to coming together. There are still major issues to tackle though. One of China's is human rights. Not 200 years ago, or even 30 years ago, but today. Frank Wolf wasn't making things up, even if his way of fighting it was probably misguided. And today's modern world is vastly different than when Apollo-Soyuz happened. We are not locked in a decades-long cold war with China, nor on the brink of all-out war.

Yes, you are right that right now there are big problems with even basic human rights in China and Wolf indeed didn't make this up. However I seriously doubt that anyone in USA government really cares about it seeing what is the foreign policy of the USA for decades - the real reason, as you said, is fear that China will steal even more American know-how and technology. It's completely understandable, though using humar rights argument seems to be just hypocrisy and (IMHO) is just a tool in a diplomacy, nothing more. And yes, the cold war is no more but close cooperation between two nations with nuclear warheads targeted at their cities did happen. It was just a political stunt and it didn't last long but it did happened and helped to ease the tension. I don't see any reason for which it can't happen again, for example with American astronauts going to Tiangong for a few days or with Shenzhou-Orion/Dragon/other spacecraft rendez-vous.

It's not about disliking the Chinese, its about disliking the policies of their government and how they treat their people. Just because they are doing cool things in space you shouldn't overlook them.

PRC is a brutal regime, ruthless in persecuting minorites which are obstacles for Bejing policy (Tibet, north-west provinces) and I don't think that having PRC in place of USA as a world leading superpower would improve things anywhere. Having said that, I'm not blinded by their achievements in space, which are also being done in hope for economical and military gains. But the funny thing is that I can use the same sentence you said to describe USA - it's not about disliking the Americans, its about disliking the policies of their government and how they treat people in foreign countries.

I have no doubt things are improving in China' date=' as Cesrate described. That is great. The day when China is a part of the free world 100% will be amazing. What we can all do now is to befriend and encourage the Chinese people we do know and let them know we're thinking of them. But we absolutely want the governments of the free world to keep putting pressure on their government to reform too..[/quote']

I agree completely that everyone would be probably better off if China westernizes more - everyone in the West, that is. And I doubt there is anything like "the governments of the free world" - I hear Reagan and cold war in this statement :) China will do what's best for China (from the Party POV) and no pressure will change this. There are a lot of examples of such behaviour when we talk about superpowers - for instance, USA didn't ratify International Criminal Court, American Convention on Human Right, Anti-Personnel Mine Ban Convention and other treaties, not to mention killing people perceived as a threat by drones completely ignoring the sovereignty of a local government. Or highest incarceration rate in the world with more than 2 million people in prison.

Without Frank Wolf' date=' maybe the Congress won't take official stances on China's human rights anymore. It's probably not their place to do so - that's the State Department and the United Nations' job. Cooperation is still going ot be difficult though, because China still needs to want it. And they'll probably have to stop the industrial espionage and hacking attempts too.[/quote']

That's true; even more, his successor may concentrate the same idea (military base on the Moon) 50 years ago.

I mean, let's be serious - manned exploration of space happenned ONLY because of a cold war and from the very beginning it was build on military hardware: Atlas, R-7, Redstone and so on. GPS is used by the military primarily and there is no accident in this that China is building its own GPS system. Space exploration was always fueled by fear of war and crazy military ideas. If, however they will build it on the Moon, then it'll be a significant breakthrough and in the long term science and mankind will also benefit from the technology to put large payloads on the Moon.

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I don't know what you are specifically pointing. If you are meaning high school physics in my opinion in physics classes most of the concepts are conveyed right, at least in the level of the current grade. Oh, the quality gaps between different schools should be considered, but textbooks are mostly correct.

In fact, despite of exam-oriented education system and heavy burden, elementary education in China is one of the world's most "high level" system... I'M NOT MEANING HIGHER EDUCATION.

One major problem of Chinese education is geographic differences in quality.

Forget about history, Im super not good at it. Physics is where I can articulately explain myself.

Actually, higher education is indeed what I mean. But the problems happend at where we begin to build the basic part.

Highschool education is where the flaws appear. For example, doing laboratory and experiment is one of the most basic fractions of learning high school physics, but under test-orientated system, kids have almost no chance to do labs and are never required to write welldone lab reports and data analysis, which they would only be able to learn after they enter universities. It would be already too late for students beginning to learn the basic method of discovering science in university, because then not everyone would be educated to have the thought of cherishing the significance of valid experiments.

This is only one facet of the many flaws. And I think some of you who are in the college can tell form some Chinese international students.

I did not say that Chinese education will be inferior forever. Actually, I can see some high schools are changing, though the process would be a really long one, 'cause China has a great population, a HUGE INERTIA. It takes time. That's what I believe. I really wish to see the day when Chinese can be as strong as all other parts of the world and begin to co-oporate with the strongest, in which I mean the US.

Um.....I'm really glad to share what I understand with you, because Im not in your country.

BTW, it makes me feel hilarious that two Chinese discuss Chinese problems in English. No offense.

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there are a lot of issues between the US and Chinese government that is going to prohibit cooperation on much at all.

And yet there is extensive economic cooperation (many US corporations manufacture in China) between the two.

Not to mention that Russia also violates human rights, but there is cooperation between the US and Russia.

Imo it's good to take a stance on these issues and make policies in accordance with that, but as a nation the US (and most other nations) is not very consistent in these matters.

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