BioMass Ongoing Development

[seanth]

Right now the version of BioMass I am working on (difficulty levels) uses real-world respiration rates as it's starting point. By that I mean Kerbals are assumed to require about 0.42kg of O2 per 86400 second. The extension of this assumption is that the same mass of plant matter respires in the same way. TACLS makes the same assumption. I have not looked at asmis' work at all, but if he is basing respiration on real-world data, it might Just Workâ„¢.

Density of the materials shouldn't impact their consumption rates if I understand how various generators work. What it will influence is the mass of parts. For testing, I have decided that user-friendliness in the in-game UI is important, so when the UI says there are 21 Biomass, that means there are 21kg of Biomass. This can only be done by giving the biomass a value of 0.001, which is definitely _not_ the density biomass would actually have.

Edit: I chatted with asmi. It seems like we are starting from the same basic starting assumptions, though he expresses thing in volumes and BioMass+ currently expresses things in masses. It should be possible to make BioMass work with asmi's stuff, though.

Edited January 13, 2014 by seanth

[Mystique]

Can you please fix science part surface/attachment? Small one almost always tends to stick at angle to a surface (simply looks bad) or tries to float in the air, also its placement is off-center from the exact point where I'm trying to attach (also unclear where is actually mass of this thing centered). And you can't attach almost anything to big one - i'll "float", not attach.

Another recently noticed glitch - radial attachment of that unit, it doesn't want to stick to surface:

[seanth]

Can you please fix science part surface/attachment? Small one almost always tends to stick at angle to a surface (simply looks bad) or tries to float in the air, also its placement is off-center from the exact point where I'm trying to attach (also unclear where is actually mass of this thing centered). And you can't attach almost anything to big one - i'll "float", not attach.

Another recently noticed glitch - radial attachment of that unit, it doesn't want to stick to surface:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/839/so1a.png

Could you specify whether you are using the github or spaceport version?

[Shad0wCatcher]

I can attest to the error on the github version. I've been running into the exact same issues with that version.

[seanth]

I can attest to the error on the github version. I've been running into the exact same issues with that version.

Ok. Github version is fixed. I also updated the test version (https://github.com/VigilanteInc/BioMass/archive/master.zip) so it has the fix.

Edit-Moved test versions to github given positive feedback

Edited January 17, 2014 by seanth

[cfds]

I looked at the release and I am confused as to the units of the ressources. Are they TAC-like Kerbal-days? And why do CarbonDioxide and CompressedCO2 have the same density?

[JeffreyCor]

Crazy idea just popped into my head, instead of difficulty files to move it what about tweakable settings as TAC Life Support provides? This would allow a single set of files to be easily adjusted to suit any play style.

[Roboto]

Crazy idea just popped into my head, instead of difficulty files to move it what about tweakable settings as TAC Life Support provides? This would allow a single set of files to be easily adjusted to suit any play style.

Not a bad thought. Pretty sure advancing the dll and perfecting the difficulty levels are going to be our main focus while we gather everyones feed back on the current release. personally, I'd like to not rely on other mod dlls to accomplish all of this though, so well see how progress goes.

[seanth]

I looked at the release and I am confused as to the units of the ressources. Are they TAC-like Kerbal-days? And why do CarbonDioxide and CompressedCO2 have the same density?

The units in biomass are kg. So, in the game, in the resource window, if it says CarbonDioxide 2.8, that means there are 2.8kg of CO2 present

The densities for many of the resources are the same because of the way KSP deals with resources. Parts have an amount of a resource, and it uses the density defined in the resource cfg to calculate the mass. Therefore, if you have 33 units of a resource that has a denisty define as 0.001, that will means the numbers you see in game are in kg. This is annoying, in that it'd having density values that are not anywhere realistic can be confusing. I made a conscious choice to go with in-game UI sanity vs configuration file (invisible to the player) sanity. This might change for the gasses and liquid after testing and balancing progresses, and would shift to liters. Biomass, food and other solids would stay as kg

As for time units, difficulty levels assume kerbal days (kDays), but all calculations have been done in terms of kg/sec.

Edited January 17, 2014 by seanth

[Nachocuban]

Using the Spaceport Version

I currently Have 3 Kerbals in a space station, with 1 Food Greenhouse, and 1 MicroBiome Module. It has been producing Food fine for about 200 days, but when I switched to it today, It has a status of Broken! and the solar panels have closed. I also have a small Water purifier, and Co2 extractor from TAC running on the station, So water and Oxygen are Fine, but food is running low.

Have I set up the system wrong?

EDIT:

Never Mind, I found the post in the old thread saying it was a solar panel glitch, and I just edited the persistent file to fixe it.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Nachocuban

[Chris_W]

The units in biomass are kg.

So you just broke TAC LS compatibility completely?

Seriously, you're driving this into a wall at increasing speeds. Please take a step back and check your heading.

Requiring Kethane. Using and redefining resources used by other mods that Biomass is thought to enhance, not break. Adding more and more required parts that make crafts actually using Biomass enormously load-heavy and high-part-count.

Stop. Look around. Reconsider. I liked this mod, but not if it keeps going down that bad road.

You're destroying useability and compatibility right now.

[seanth]

So you just broke TAC LS compatibility completely?

Please understand that for testing purposes only, things are in kg. This is because when doing mass balanced equations, one usually does them in terms of mass, not volume. I do not foresee a time when the actual resource called "biomass" will be in anything other than kg, but once testing progresses the units for gasses and liquids will be changed to liters since people tend to discuss gasses and liquids in terms of liters. Even when moved to liters, however, BioMass and the stock TAC-LS will differ in resource densities since TAC-LS currently uses a 1unit/kerbal/86400 second system and BioMass does not. If I recall, TAC-LS had to adjust resource densities in such a way as to achieve the 1 unit/86400sec system, and the densities listed there are not based on anything other than convenience for the user.

The Biomass mod was going to start using TAC's Generic Converter but it's no longer available. So there's that....

I am happy to discuss the science and the design decisions being made, in addition to the planned roadmap, if you like.

If you have constructive feedback regarding the new test version up on github, it would be very welcome. Alternately, if it bothers people to see design and testing steps, I could just wait until it reaches a point I consider done and then post it. I assumed people would like to follow along and maybe help in testing.

Edited January 19, 2014 by seanth

[Chris_W]

As much as I'd like to help test stuff here, It would break playability for me at this point.

I'd have to setup a new clean KSP install without other mods for it and.. well, I'd not touch that a lot.

BioMass, to me, is an addon to support other mods. It should not exclude their use.

"Units" are there for user convenience and all of KSP along with its mods use that to provide e.g. batteries that hold 100 units instead of 1 billion, or fuel tanks that hold 200 units instead of 10000.

This helps in rocket design as well as keeping an eye on your resources in-mission and also helps keeping math a bit away from the user by giving him simple numbers to work with.

Don't get me wrong, this is not about "the resource biomass", which is unique to this mod and thereby completely free.

But cross-mod stuff like CO2, O2, Water and the like? A lot of other mods use those resources. You're probably breaking compatibility with TAC LS, KSP Interstellar and a lot of others as well there by redefining resources used in quite a few mods, while those authors agreed on thisnthat density for thisnthat resource across those mods already to not dictate that "if you use a, you cannot use b".

Using arbitrary numbers there is the worst thing one could do in respect to people running multiple mods.

Those mods pretty much are your target audience for that matter, since they hold the userbase screaming for more stuff like greenhouses to support their epic long-term missions. At least I thought you were aiming to fulfill that demand with BioMass.

Redefining the resources those mods use breaks compatibility and puts BioMass out of the picture as a solution for their fans. If I'm a KSPi fan and want something to be able to produce food and oxygen for KSPi spaceships, I won't deinstall my favourite mod just to get it. Same with TAC LS. Same with everything else.

I don't bring this up to annoy you or anything, I'm just saying that you handle a major design decision there on an arbitrary level as if it were not important at all. Which could lead to severe complications I don't want you guys to run into.

Even if it's only for testing purposes and for the moment, it already dictates your testers would have to setup an own KSP install only for this testing, because using other mods or existing saves will break resource definitions big time - narrowing down your tester base by a lot.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Chris_W

[seanth]

snip

Your points are well received. I would only point out that every life support mod I have looked at, and every life support author I have talked to (yongedevil, TaranisElsu, asmi and to a lesser extent Fractal_UK) use different densities for things common between them. My fear is that, no matter what Roboto and I do, BioMass will always be incompatible with with other biology related mods. This is especially true since I am trying to stay true to the biology, so input masses should equal output masses.

Here is where it gets complicated and a bit tl;dr. The KSP community has worked out that Squad's parts use liters as what the "unit" is. Density is in tonnes/liter. This can be confirmed by looking at the solid rocket booster. The part is defined as having a mass of 0.5 (tonne). It hold 433 (liters) of solid fuel, and the density of solidFuel is 0.0075. 433Liters*0.0075tonnes/Liter=3.2475tonnes for solid fuel+0.5 tonnes for the part=3.7475 tonnes.

Generators usually consume and produce resources in units (so in Squad parts, liters). So if you are designing something that is mass balanced, you need to set up the generator in such a way that you adjust the numbers in the generator so it uses the correct amount of mass...which is totally determined by how the resource's density is defined.

So if different mods define oxygen's density differently, any mod that does mass-related reactions will end up having different (probably unbalanced) outputs.

To illustrate, if one looks at oxygen as defined in ioncross, TACLS and amsi's lifesupport mod, is is defined as having a density of 0.0004 0.00002083(ioncross), 0.0004290144(TACLS), 0.00000143(amsi). If a converter says to consume 6 units of oxygen, that would translate as 2.4 0.12498, 2.574 and 0.00858 kg of oxygen being consumed, respectively. And this doesn't even address that I think that _none_ of those densities are Squad-appropriate densities. Me thinks amsi's is closest.

There's no good way to solve this since some mod makers insist on realism and use real-world density values, some try and make densities match what Squad has defined for resources, others opt for easier in-game displays, and other use a number that seems good enough. It's a huge mess.

EDIT: fixed the ioncross data to use the value from the latest dev build.

Edited January 20, 2014 by seanth

[Nachocuban]

If you do use different resource definitions from other life support mods, is there a way to convert them somehow to be useable by said life support mods?

Basically, is it even possible to have the biomass mod support the life support mods? Otherwise the entire reason I have the mod installed is gone, which is sad as I really enjoy the models and mechanics of this.

Also, if a resource library was created that defined resources that are used my multiple mods, and other authors agreed to use said library, would your team be opposed to it?

[seanth]

If you do use different resource definitions from other life support mods, is there a way to convert them somehow to be useable by said life support mods?

The easiest way to to achieve that would be to adjust the life support mods, not Biomass. Adapting Biomass would require adjusting many, many setting in numerous parts, whereas adjusting a life support mod would require altering as few as 1 settings and changing density values.

Basically, is it even possible to have the biomass mod support the life support mods? Otherwise the entire reason I have the mod installed is gone, which is sad as I really enjoy the models and mechanics of this.

Absolutely. In fact, the BioMass difficulty levels are set up with TACLS in mind. The setup for TACLS is slightly different than how it ships in that the respiration of the kerbals is as TaranisElsu' spreadsheet worked out, and no adjustments are made for 1 unit/kerbal/86400sec. I can post the details if wanted. Making BioMass compatible with asmi's life support mod would be more difficult, but only because he calls a resource CO2 that BioMass and other mods call "CarbonDioxide." If he called it CarbonDioxide, BioMass would be compatible by changing three #s. (one rate and two densities).

Also, if a resource library was created that defined resources that are used my multiple mods, and other authors agreed to use said library, would your team be opposed to it?

I would love to see this, and have approached several mod makers suggesting exactly this. There was an interesting thread that seemed to, initially, want this. I don't agree with all of what the thread OP ended up proposing, but the thread made me better realize that modders fall into two basic categories: "realists" that want to use only real world densities and "kerbalists" that take Squad's resource list as canon and try to make everything fit. Kethane, for example would be an example of a "kerbalists" mod. If you accept that Squad resources are around 4.5x denser than any real world counterpart and apply the math to the Kethane resource, Kethane has a density nearly identical to liquid methane.

"Realists" and "kerbalists" will never agree for obvious reasons. In a broader sense the "realists" have a much easier time because they already agree that all densities should be real-world values. "Kerbalist" modders have much more wiggle room. I'd absolutely love to see some nice guidelines among "kerbalist" modders, especially the biology-related mods. But, for example, I am absolutely convinced that Squads' resources are (real-world density*4.5), but how does one convince others if showing them a consistent pattern doesn't work <shrug>.

[cfds]

I have to say that the BioMass' dev team's choice of mass as the basic unit is the sensible one and should be taken over by the life support mods. TACs Kerbal-day unit is convenient to see the reserves on first glance but mass IS the natural unit for matter and the display of "time left" for the resources can (and should) be done via GUI.

[Shad0wCatcher]

Just information: The Biomass+Science download from github (2.4a) does not include a plant greenhouse config. The config is named plantGreenhouse.old and the part (of course since it's not named properly) doesn't show up at all. Was there supposed to be a new config written for it that wasn't included in the download or are you guys trying to test something else at this time that doesn't include growth rates?

[Roboto]

Just information: The Biomass+Science download from github (2.4a) does not include a plant greenhouse config. The config is named plantGreenhouse.old and the part (of course since it's not named properly) doesn't show up at all. Was there supposed to be a new config written for it that wasn't included in the download or are you guys trying to test something else at this time that doesn't include growth rates?

I beleive there was a different config file, this may have been uploaded by mistake. Ill check it out. Thanks!

[seanth]

Just information: The Biomass+Science download from github (2.4a) does not include a plant greenhouse config. The config is named plantGreenhouse.old and the part (of course since it's not named properly) doesn't show up at all. Was there supposed to be a new config written for it that wasn't included in the download or are you guys trying to test something else at this time that doesn't include growth rates?

I updated github last night, so all you need to to re-download. The latest update introduced some minor changes in rates things work at, as well as introduces a new aquatic greenhouse.

[Ogamaga]

Absolutely. In fact, the BioMass difficulty levels are set up with TACLS in mind. The setup for TACLS is slightly different than how it ships in that the respiration of the kerbals is as TaranisElsu' spreadsheet worked out, and no adjustments are made for 1 unit/kerbal/86400sec. I can post the details if wanted.

I would greatly appreciate this, thank you.

[Shad0wCatcher]

Yea I saw that at work today seanth. Snagged the updated code on my laptop and am now pulling down the updated zip on my desktop.

[seanth]

I probably shouldn't play favorites, but I need to express some love for TAC-LS. It's just really, really well done. It's grounded in solid empiricism, and doesn't lock anyone into assumptions. SO much love.

TAC-LS comes set up to present the player with things such that a kerbal consumes or produces things at a rate of 1 unit/86400seconds. But the mod author also did the legwork to work out what the biologic consumption/production rates would be. His work is practically identical to things I worked out before I knew what he had done, and the difference are probably just rounding errors.

For those interested in configuring TAC-LS to match BioMass's biologic rates:

Those changes should allow everything to work together. I'm still testing things, but with those settings BioMass+Science as it is downloaded from github (i.e. on normal difficulty) should support 2 kerbals in terms of oxygen indefinitely if the greenhouse is full of biomass and is receiving constant light and has enough CO2, O2(yes, plants need O2), and water. If this is not the case, please do let us know.

The density values for food and waste may change as testing progresses.

Edit: I'm happy to share a spreadsheet used to obtain these values and to explain where starting values came from, why certain calculations were done, etc.

Edited January 22, 2014 by seanth

[koksny]

For those interested in configuring TAC-LS to match BioMass's biologic rates:

So if i'm using both TAC and BM+S, should i just delete BM+S resource config files, or just replace the variables in them? Because now, if i replace it in TAC settings and config files, BM+S still overrides it with it's own settings (Basing it on fact that food transfer doesn't work when using stock install of TAC, BM+S and these settings, works fine with BM+S food resource setting nulled off in config file, but no other change appears and the resource monitor displays same values as before)

Also, does Density setting affects the speed of resource transfer between two tanks? If no, is there any way to change it, or is it somehow staticly bound to size of container?

[seanth]

So if i'm using both TAC and BM+S, should i just delete BM+S resource config files, or just replace the variables in them? Because now, if i replace it in TAC settings and config files, BM+S still overrides it with it's own settings (Basing it on fact that food transfer doesn't work when using stock install of TAC, BM+S and these settings, works fine with BM+S food resource setting nulled off in config file, but no other change appears and the resource monitor displays same values as before)

Also, does Density setting affects the speed of resource transfer between two tanks? If no, is there any way to change it, or is it somehow staticly bound to size of container?

In looking a little closer, it looks like the BioMass mod currently has some densities that are not what they should be. In our defense, we hadn't gotten to testing them and didn't notice. Please try making the following changes:

--BioMass_b.cfg

---Waste should have a density of 0.00045

---Food should have a density of 0.001125

I will update github with those changes tonight.

With those changes to BM+S and the settings given in the images above, the resources of TACLS and BM+S should have exactly the same values and there will be no need to delete any files.

What might also be happening is that TAC-LS and BM+S have different flow modes set for some resources. In general, BM+S has solids set to STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH. Please try changing the BM+S flowMode for Food and Waste to ALL_VESSEL. This could, potentially, cause problems with the Microbiome automatically consuming Food, but might solve your transfer problems. The Microbiome will be updated soon to try and make it so it doesn't automatically import food to break down (the mystery goo demands food!). If that does not solve your problem we'll have to dig deeper and figure out what is going on.

As for what Density does: the game engine uses the density value in the RESOURCE_DEFINITIONs to calculate the mass of parts (and craft) that hold fuel. The example I use a lot is that a solid fuel booster holds 433L of solidFuel, which has a density of 0.0075. 433L*0.0075tonnes/L=3.2475tonnes. Plus the parts default 0.5tonnes=3.7475tonnes(the weight of the entire part). This matters in TAC-LS and BM+S because both do calculations of L/s or kg/s, which translates into things like L of O2 or kg of biomass.