What will KSP become?

[sal_vager]

This thread is just turning into more arguments, if you guys can't discuss things as adults and just write off comments as "opinion" the moderation team will be forced to close this thread.

[Dante80]

Have you thought about the fact that I base myself on squad words and that they flipped the entire dev roadmap upside down and backpedaled on their promises? They wanted the game to be something. Now they want it to be something different.

I'm not against them having a vision for the final game, I'm against them changing their vision midways to pull a Notch.

Thats why I asked you about understanding the fact that what the developers want the game to become is different from what they wanted a year ago man. Take for example resources. They worked on them, tested them, made textures and parts for them and then decided that their implementation was not good for the game, as they envisioned it. And shelved them.

Now, you might not like that. You might think that they should have had a concrete idea for the feature set the finished game would have, and stick with it. But really, scrapping all that work done already on that particular feature is far harder or/and bolder than just sticking with it, compromising their vision for the game and going with what a part of the community wanted just to appease or "keep their word".

In other words, regarding resources Squad did exactly the opposite of what you think "pulling a Notch" means...

Edited December 29, 2013 by Dante80

[Liowen]

This thread is just turning into more arguments, if you guys can't discuss things as adults and just write off comments as "opinion" the moderation team will be forced to close this thread.

I figured after the multiple resource complaint threads over the last few weeks there would be a section just for that. This one should be closed though honestly as some are just using it for a platform to complain....

[boxman]

That's the thing. Kerbal Space Program is about little green spacemen in a game. KSP is their version of NASA.

And while NASA is technically in the "business" of building colonies on other worlds, it isn't in the mining business.

Some mission ideas do have the requirement of refuelling on other planets, but they aren't going to go and strip mine Mars and sell the rocks.

IMO, colonies in KSP should simply require power and then have special bays like the science bay, but the kerbals grow food in them. Everything gets recycled, otherwise its going to be a nightmare tracking which colonies need to go out and "mine to stay alive".

And the nice thing about KSP is that you dont necesarilly need to have the limits of NASA. If it was 100% realistic ro real world we would not be able to do much more than sending probes and send humans to low earth orbit.

If/when nasa gets the funding to put some kind of base on Mars they will have to find a way to get for example water and this could be a part of the resource system as well.

Mining does not have to be just mining rare metals. I agree however that it should not be overly grindy.

This is again why career mode should be tweakable so that you can make it as difficult you want.

[boxman]

I figured after the multiple resource complaint threads over the last few weeks there would be a section just for that. This one should be closed though honestly as some are just using it for a platform to complain....

Cant you just ignore us if you have a problem with it?? This is completely ontopic to this thread and should not be closed.

I have so far seen no name calling or anything that should lead to this thread being closed.

People should be able to express their opinions even if you dont agree with them. If you dont like it then just ignore us.

[Albert VDS]

Such proof, wow.

That's not proof, that's me showing you what you are doing.

Could you please point me to the part where I blame squad?

Maybe you should reread you post.

RESOURCES

oh wait.

INSIDE VAB SHIP INFORMATION

oh wait.

NEW SOLAR SYSTEMS

oh wait.

Yeah, money, reputation, more career polishing, and multiplayer.

Either your post says that Squad thinks like that and you can't have those feature(thus blaming Squad) or that you think like that(In which case it would be funny).

Everything that existed before skunky was fired was deleted or just simply wasn't saved.

You make it sound like a conspiracy. Old Squadcasts are viewable on twitch, just search for them.

Opinion.

So it's an opinion that KSP without randomly generated Solar system is still KSP. So some people with that opinion aren't playing KSP then when they are playing KSP.

An alpha doesn't have to work properly from the get go either. And not only that but the releases have some really visible bugs even with branched testing and experimentals. Makes many people doubt about the quality of the testers. At least now modders get experimentals (After squad got tired of experimentals being leaked to them and max pulled a string or two)

Squads goal is to release each update as if it's the last update. I suggest you try to make a game and see how flawless it is in it's alpha stage.

That is a really invalid argument cause the same could be said about multiplayer, spaceplanes or anything.

It's invalid to say that it's Squads decision?

Argument discarded.

And why is that?

[PDCWolf]

Thats why I asked you about understanding the fact that what the developers want the game to become is different from what they wanted a year ago man. Take for example resources. They worked on them, tested them, made textures and parts for them and then decided that their implementation was not good for the game, as they envisioned it. And shelved them.

The point is there were promises for pre 0.18 customers (and the EULA was different regarding these too) and now they are left out because McDev decided he wants his game to be a spore-galactic-stage-glorification one.

Now, you might not like that. You might think that they should have had a concrete idea for the feature set the finished game would have, and stick with it. But really, scrapping all that work done already on that particular feature is far harder or/and bolder than just sticking with it, compromising their vision for the game and going with what a part of the community wanted.

Not saying they should have something concrete and strict since the beginning (nobody does, even if it would be good for all the troubles it could avoid) but they flipped 180°, that's what I'm against. A major change that leaves people that had other stuff promised out.

In other words, regarding resources Squad did exactly the opposite of what you think "pulling a Notch" means...

They didn't pull a notch with resources, they pulled a notch with multiplayer.

That's not proof, that's me showing you what you are doing.

But you have no proof that I'm bending facts or that I'm making what I want of what they said, that's why I asked for proof that I'm wrong.

Either your post says that Squad thinks like that and you can't have those feature(thus blaming Squad) or that you think like that(In which case it would be funny).

I was being extremely sarcastic with that, showing what it could have been and contrasted with what it is possibly going to be. Would have worked better if I used a voice message instead so that you could hear my tone.

You make it sound like a conspiracy. Old Squadcasts are viewable on twitch, just search for them.

Not really, I don't want it to sound like anything. Pre-Yargnit stuff is just not there, you can go and look for it. Hell, I double dare you to look for pre 0.19 squadcasts, those with 3000 viewers were they showed resources, which don't exist anymore either.

So it's an opinion that KSP without randomly generated Solar system is still KSP. So some people with that opinion aren't playing KSP then when they are playing KSP.

There's one big mistake here. You seem to misunderstand the difference between procedural and random. Look it up please. And what I was trying to say is that "there's not much to space engine[...]" is just your opinion. In fact I could prove you wrong by including the all new atmospheric flying and warp mechanics or the planned gameplay.

It's invalid to say that it's Squads decision?

No. It's invalid to say "There's also nothing stopping the mod community on making a similar resources mod." , because other included features could also be replaced with mods, It's even worse after the devs decided to make multiplayer official only because they saw a mod about it.

I mean, I could just say "Hey squad, stop developing multiplayer, we have KMP", and I bet there would be a lot of people glaring at me, and the same could be said for a whole lot of features.

It works the same way as the suggestions/discussion forum: Recommending a mod is not a solution to the problem.

Edited December 29, 2013 by PDCWolf

[pebble_garden]

Squad's goal is to release each update as if it's the last update. I suggest you try to make a game and see how flawless it is in its alpha stage.

As someone who works in the games business, I feel this is one of Squad's shrewdest decisions. Their model of game development is the future, in my opinion, especially as the market moves away from massive AAA titles (two of which I've worked on) to more nimble indie developers funding their work with early-access buy-ins. Ensuring that each release can stand as a final version means extra work for the devs, but it gives the customer the greatest value for their money.

But then, I'm one of Squad's/KSP's biggest fans, so maybe I'm biased.

Anyway, if Squad stopped development on KSP right this moment and 0.23 was the only version we ever got, I STILL think it's one of the best games ever made. Everything else we get is just icing on the cake.

I never expected multiplayer, simply because historically it's been an almost insoluble problem despite the combined brainpower of some of gaming's best minds. That KMP has demonstrated a clever way around the time-accel sync problem is no slam on Squad (who have to pick their fights carefully, given limited staff and resources), but now that it's been shown to be feasible I give the devs credit for putting it on the table. If they get it working, great! If not, well, I can live without it.

Edited December 29, 2013 by pebble_garden

[ddavis425]

"What will KSP become?"

That's a rather broad question. My best guess is that it will end up like Minecraft but at a slower pace, and by that I mean most older players leaving and the remaining playerbase consisting of recent buyers. Development will continue to slow (Maxmaps posted on another website that Squad hopes to be finishing career mode by the end of 2014, I expected much, much sooner). After Career mode is finished I'd say there is a 60% chance of multiplayer being dropped for some other feature that might do more to attract new buyers. More modders will be hired and fired. Devs will continue to be further and further disconnected from the playerbase. I want to be wrong but the way things have been going for the past year doesn't give much hope. I almost wish that Squad just developed KSP like a normal game and released it later.

[Albert VDS]

The point is there were promises for pre 0.18 customers (and the EULA was different regarding these too) and now they are left out because McDev decided he wants his game to be a spore-galactic-stage-glorification one.

The free resource DLC promise was made because they planned to actually make resource. They made the resource and then shelved it. Also, shelved doesn't mean that they wont add resources in some point in time, just don't count on it.

Not saying they should have something concrete and strict since the beginning (nobody does, even if it would be good for all the troubles it could avoid) but they flipped 180°, that's what I'm against. A major change that leaves people that had other stuff promised out.

Or actually the tried to implement it into the game. They thought it was to boring and shelved it.

In the end they thought the resources feature they added didn't make the game what they want it to be.

They didn't pull a notch with resources, they pulled a notch with multiplayer.

Squad never mention that MP was impossible or will never be added. The only people who said it was impossible were the modders.

Which is reasonable seeing how hard it actually is to hack something like that into a game without having access to core of the game.

And again if you have proof of it being the other way around, then by all means post it.

[PDCWolf]

The free resource DLC promise was made because they planned to actually make resource. They made the resource and then shelved it. Also, shelved doesn't mean that they wont add resources in some point in time, just don't count on it.

Or actually the tried to implement it into the game. They thought it was to boring and shelved it.

In the end they thought the resources feature they added didn't make the game what they want it to be.

So yeah, you are giving me the reason that they didn't fulfill they promises (Sure, they can do that for free since they already have the money).

Squad never mention that MP was impossible or will never be added. The only people who said it was impossible were the modders.

Which is reasonable seeing how hard it actually is to hack something like that into a game without having access to core of the game.

And again if you have proof of it being the other way around, then by all means post it.

"Multiplayer is not planned, if it ever comes it will be like a DLC thing"-Harvester. And then the twitch chat imploded and DLC fiasco happened.

Edited December 29, 2013 by PDCWolf

[joppiesaus]

It'll just get developed until there's nothing to develop anymore.

And of course it would get bigger.

[boxman]

It'll just get developed until there's nothing to develop anymore.

And of course it would get bigger.

That is what I hope will happen. I dont care if there is years of development time left as long as they use that time to add missing features and make it as good as they possible can.

[TMS]

My prediction is that resources will be implemented in a reduced form for the 1.0 release. The complicated system, as touted in 0.19, will be reworked and made available as DLC, sorry, an expansion pack.

That's my prediction. Seal it in an envelope and take a peek in a year or two.

[ddavis425]

Squad never mention that MP was impossible or will never be added. The only people who said it was impossible were the modders.

Which is reasonable seeing how hard it actually is to hack something like that into a game without having access to core of the game.

And again if you have proof of it being the other way around, then by all means post it.

A statement like this can be forgiven since you only joined the forums in July. When I first joined the forums, Squad had the mindset that multiplayer was not possible. Later on, they changed that to "maybe possible, but won't be added." Then that changed to "maybe possible, but it wouldn't be added until after KSP's release." Now of course they say it is completely doable and it will be coming soon.

[boxman]

My prediction is that resources will be implemented in a reduced form for the 1.0 release. The complicated system, as touted in 0.19, will be reworked and made available as DLC, sorry, an expansion pack.

That's my prediction. Seal it in an envelope and take a peek in a year or two.

Considering how much I have gotten from this game I would have no issue if they released it as a paid DLC as long as it is eventually coming.

[TMS]

Neither would I... but then again, I'm on the free-upgrades-for-life pay plan, courtesy of Felipe's Faux Pas Enterprises and Pitchfork & Lanterns Inc.

[Jon Tash]

Neither would I... but then again, I'm on the free-upgrades-for-life pay plan, courtesy of Felipe's Faux Pas Enterprises and Pitchfork & Lanterns Inc.

Wait what? There is lanterns too?

[minimuffin]

Hhere is a timeline of what I think is going to happen:

ext update will have contracts, and might also have money (Essentially, career mode will be finished in the next few updates) In between, we might have one update that sort of fixes bugs, performance issues, maybe adds a part or two, Then we will have multiplayer development, which will probably last for about three or four updates. After that, we most surely have a update almost completely bug fixes and touch ups. Then, I think all modes will be fleshed out, for example tweaking things, adding parts, things like that, until we enter the final stage, a bunch of bug fixing and polishing. Then 1.0 will be out, but the devs will occasionally add stuff, while possibly developing DLC.

[WafflesToo]

I'm still trying to figure out what Multiplayer could possibly add to the game...

[Eric S]

So yeah, you are giving me the reason that they didn't fulfill they promises (Sure, they can do that for free since they already have the money).

What promises have they not fulfilled? They really haven't made many, and they haven't broken those few that they did make. Talking about working on something isn't the same as promising. Features get dropped from games under development all the time, sometimes because they run out of time, sometimes because it's not practical, and sometimes because the devs decide that the mechanic isn't fun or doesn't fit into the game.

[malkuth]

I kinda like the way they are going with contracts. Making MissionController has showed me that a Mission Based system based off a money system is a complete hamstring on what most users are use to doing in kerbal space program. Its not a bad thing, but I have a feeling they have seen this too.

Don't get me wrong, I love mission controller which is why I develop it. But I also see what it does to Kerbal Space Program and the wonderful contraptions people love to build, its more of a handicap, then a feature at this point, and with this new contract system looks like they want to keep those types of vessels a reality.

I guess we will see what happens. Like everything some will like it some will not. In the long run Mods will always expand things for people that want it a certain way. I can't wait to see what the devs come up with this system. Seems like they are following the Story Missions Mod Idea to me.

[Albert VDS]

"Multiplayer is not planned, if it ever comes it will be like a DLC thing"-Harvester. And then the twitch chat imploded and DLC fiasco happened.

The DLC thing was about the resources, don't mix the 2. You have yet to give proof that anyone on Squad said that MP wasn't possible.

A statement like this can be forgiven since you only joined the forums in July. When I first joined the forums, Squad had the mindset that multiplayer was not possible. Later on, they changed that to "maybe possible, but won't be added." Then that changed to "maybe possible, but it wouldn't be added until after KSP's release." Now of course they say it is completely doable and it will be coming soon.

I've bee playing KSP since 0.16 and been following it on the forums and through Twitch ever since. Again, the only mentioning of MP were in the MP mod threads with modders discussing it.

It seems to me that it more like hear-say and that's not a great source of official information. Ever played "telephone"?

The oldest post I could find on the forums about MP is from 30 July 2012.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/15727-Will-there-be-multiplayer?p=223366&viewfull=1#post223366

Re: Will there be multiplayer?

This topic has been discussed a large amount already, it would be appreciated if you would use the forum search functionality to ensure you do not post a topic which has been covered many times before.

The chief developer mentions this topic in his IRC interview, I would advise checking this out. In short, it will not be coming in the near future.

Thanks,

Rich

Edited December 30, 2013 by Albert VDS

[Alguien]

The oldest post I could find on the forums about MP is from 30 July 2012.

then you aren't looking hard enough

Here is one from 10 March 2012

Here is another from 9 July 2011 but in portugese

older ones where probably lost when the forums exploded, as you can see than even older threads mention than "it was asked a lot before" and note how back then was a "far away possibility"

The DLC thing was about the resources, don't mix the 2.

Apply your own comment to yourself

http://youtu.be/gB_XOb0h8hE?t=15m18s

Hoperfull we will able to get to multiplayer and release it as an expansion pack.

[Kerbart]

Neither would I... but then again, I'm on the free-upgrades-for-life pay plan, courtesy of Felipe's Faux Pas Enterprises and Pitchfork & Lanterns Inc.

See, there's your problem. You've already paid and Squad is not getting any of your money anymore. Financially, their interest is not in the hard-core players. Making the game attractive for the casual market is. That doesn't mean they'd have to dumb it down; it does mean that they'll work on learning the game becoming easier. Science, money, reputation: they're carrots for people to get "deep enough" into the game to start exploring it themselves.

The biggest mistake early adopters and Squad (by offering it) made with the current development model is that the early adopters have (been given) unrealistic expectations on what Squad will develop over time. Squad's interest is in selling new licenses; hence their development will be aimed at making the game attractive to a larger and larger audience. Career mode, tutorials and training modes will do that. Resource mining and multi-player much less.

Paying for each upgrade sucks, but it doesn't have to be a fortune and it does give existing customers the ability to vote with their feet. Squad chose not to, and the KSP community loved the "pay once, get upgrades-for-life" promise which is an incredible short-sighted one. And here we are with those free upgrades: they're focused on people who will give money to Squad. Not at those who've done that already. So expect more career/learning mode features, parts that will make gameplay easier, not more complex.

True aerodynamics: seems hard to model, and makes launching/landing harder. I won't expect it soon (if ever)

Resource mining: either you need it or you don't. If you don't need it there's no incentive in doing it and you might as well pretend you're setting up a mining base (instead of doing "the real thing") if you want that experience. If you do need it it'll make starting out harder... obviously it's lower on the list

Multi-player: the problems are not technical, but rather gameplay oriented. I'm not convinced how well the current modded solution scales up. But: multi-player can be very lucrative since you can charge people for using a multi-player server. Selling server time will be so much easier if multi-player mods don't work, by the way. Just sayin'...

Mods in general: hopefully Squad will fix their schizophrenic approach to mods. On the one hand they see it as their mission to provide a solid platform with basic functionality. For anything special, use mods! Great. On the other hand, practically every mod that does more than provide basic ships seems to break at every other release. If they want people to rely on mods, they'll have to come up with an API that allows people to rely on mods.