[1.8+] Real Fuels

[SanderB]

in the meantime are there older versions I can go back to?

[RedAV8R]

Not if you want support for anything else.

[NathanKell]

Won't be long now, just tidying up the last bug.

[Autochton]

I know how that could be handled. Make an RCS thruster variant that, when attached to a tank that has boiloff, would be able to work for free as long as the fuel is in the tank. It's Isp (and thus, thrust) would depend on the boiloff rate and the percentage of tank that is still filled (essentially, on the ullage gas pressure). They would be very weak, especially when attached to a tank of something other than hydrogen (say, LOX, which also boils off).

TBH, I'd rather have a resource that would build up over time to a certain maximum (remainder gets vented) as cryo-liquid fuel boils off into gas, and is expended when using the RCS. But I suspect there's a number of ways to do this sort of thing.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Autochton
Typo

[dreadicon]

Ive recently been toying with a fun concept: taking water in place of LOx and LH. It has better hydrogen density than LH, isn't cryogenic, and has the same pressure requirements, plus has the added bonus of holding a lot of oxygen at the same time. IN my case, I have a nuclear reactor to power my ion engines on an interplanetary vessel, so hydrolysis power requirements aren't an issue. It only brings Argon, Water, and Food, and has dV in the 5-digit range, with years of life support. (note: here I use the Methane from the Sabatier Reaction as fuel for RCS engines)

Here's a basic diagram I worked up of it:

The engines I use are VASMIR engines, so in a pinch I can convert water reserves to hydrogen to get a bit more thrust, or use a Bosch reaction to reclaim the hydrogen from the Methane. The craft is realistic, flexible, and very long ranged & cost efficient. I am quite proud of it. And Real Fuels is what inspired me I knew there had to be a denser way to store hydrogen and an efficient RCS solution.

[skeevy]

Hi Nathan. It's some great work you do, but I have a question.

I've been looking and I'm having a hard time finding documentation regarding the ModularEngines part of RealFuels. Perhaps my Google-Fu isn't as keen as is once was. You wouldn't happen to have any documentation about ModularEngines or a decent config with most or all of its features to study? Thanks.

My goal is to make more engines support Karbonite. I was working on Ka to B9 fuel tanks, but MFT did everything necessary thanks to premade configs. It was a total face-palm moment when I installed MFT and everything I wanted to do and had been working on was already done and working.

Welp...off to work. Ya'll have fun playing KSP...I'll be digging holes and putting up a chain link fence...

[Starwaster]

Hi Nathan. It's some great work you do, but I have a question.

I've been looking and I'm having a hard time finding documentation regarding the ModularEngines part of RealFuels. Perhaps my Google-Fu isn't as keen as is once was. You wouldn't happen to have any documentation about ModularEngines or a decent config with most or all of its features to study? Thanks.

My goal is to make more engines support Karbonite. I was working on Ka to B9 fuel tanks, but MFT did everything necessary thanks to premade configs. It was a total face-palm moment when I installed MFT and everything I wanted to do and had been working on was already done and working.

Welp...off to work. Ya'll have fun playing KSP...I'll be digging holes and putting up a chain link fence...

This is what you want to look at: ModuleEngineConfigs has to be added to the part. type should be set to the type of engine module used (i.e. ModuleEngines or ModuleEnginesFX, etc)

For TL / engineType information, see the ReadMe_RF.txt file and scroll to the very bottom for examples of TL usage and more importantly what engineType's are available. (note that engineType N, Nuclear has TL 3 as its lowest and goes up to 8 instead of 7 which is the max for everything else)

configuration is the default CONFIG used. Don't do anything with modded.

Inside the module you want one CONFIG entry for each engine configuration supported. The general format is pretty much the same as what goes into a ModuleEngines / ModuleEnginesFX. Additionally it also takes IspSL and IspV to override sea level / vacuum ISP. Finally you can also add ModuleEngineIgnitor configs inside the CONFIG node. (see example below)

MODULE
{
name = ModuleEngineConfigs
type = ModuleEngines
techLevel = 3
origTechLevel = 3
engineType = L+
origMass = 0.045
configuration = Kerosene+LiquidOxygen
modded = false
CONFIG
{
name = LiquidH2+LiquidOxygen
maxThrust = 22.5
heatProduction = 166


PROPELLANT
{
name = LiquidH2
ratio = 0.7630831
DrawGauge = True
}
PROPELLANT
{
name = LiquidOxygen
ratio = 0.2369169
}
IspSL = 1.261
IspV = 1.3
throttle = 0


ModuleEngineIgnitor
{
name = ModuleEngineIgnitor
ignitionsAvailable = 1
autoIgnitionTemperature = 800
ignitorType = Electric
useUllageSimulation = true
IGNITOR_RESOURCE
{
name = ElectricCharge
amount = 0.3
}
}
}
CONFIG
{
name = Kerosene+LiquidOxygen
maxThrust = 30
heatProduction = 166


PROPELLANT
{
name = Kerosene
ratio = 0.37694087
DrawGauge = True
}
PROPELLANT
{
name = LiquidOxygen
ratio = 0.62305913
}
IspSL = 1
IspV = 1
throttle = 0


ModuleEngineIgnitor
{
name = ModuleEngineIgnitor
ignitionsAvailable = 1
autoIgnitionTemperature = 800
ignitorType = Electric
useUllageSimulation = true
IGNITOR_RESOURCE
{
name = ElectricCharge
amount = 0.3
}
}
}
CONFIG
{
name = Aerozine+N2O4
maxThrust = 30
heatProduction = 166


PROPELLANT
{
name = Aerozine
ratio = 0.5017301
DrawGauge = True
}
PROPELLANT
{
name = N2O4
ratio = 0.4982699
}
IspSL = 0.963
IspV = 0.955
throttle = 0


ModuleEngineIgnitor
{
name = ModuleEngineIgnitor
ignitionsAvailable = 2
autoIgnitionTemperature = 800
ignitorType = Electric
useUllageSimulation = true
IGNITOR_RESOURCE
{
name = ElectricCharge
amount = 0.3
}
}
}


}

Edited September 19, 2014 by Starwaster

[NathanKell]

Your best bet would be to also look through the Docs page of the Calcs spreadsheet in post 2. That should explain more stuff.

[AlternNocturn]

I've been trying to figure out how to deal with engines that need to be pressure fed. I've tried adding a small tank with Helium inside like IRL but that doesn't seem to work. Google search turns up nothing. I also have no idea if this is a feature added by RO or if it's from Real Fuels.

[RedAV8R]

You need pressurized tanks. The ServiceModule type is what you need. Procedural Parts has that ability.

[AlternNocturn]

You need pressurized tanks. The ServiceModule type is what you need. Procedural Parts has that ability.

Ah, okay, I have Procedural Parts. That helps a lot, thanks!

EDIT: I added the engines and it says everything checks out.

Edited September 26, 2014 by AlternNocturn

[NathanKell]

AlternNocturn: right now I abstract the pressurant; it's considered part of the tank's dry mass. You do need a ServiceModule (or RCS type tank), since other tanks don't have the strength for high pressurization.

[CSVoltage]

So I'm still having a problem with intakeAir cross feed with my jet engines while real fuels is installed. I made a short vid showing the problem. more details in the vid's description.

http://youtu.be/vU0RARGRu0w

[NathanKell]

Stock issue. It's how fuel flow works.

[Starwaster]

Stock issue. It's how fuel flow works.

That may be, but it's only an issue when there's a dearth of resource.

In a game without Real Fuels (stock turbojet; for some reason I'm missing the B9 engines he used) two of those intakes provide 100 kg/s of air (ASL and at rest) and the engines require just over 50. (according to MechJeb)

With Real Fuels, the same engines need 50 but the intakes only provide about 20.

I can't believe I never noticed it before. Probably because I didn't do planes much in stock and once I discovered RF, it's almost never absent from my installs...

[CSVoltage]

Ok, so its just an issue of not enough air? I find that hard to believe. And idk if it matters, but i tried using smart parts' fuel flow breaks to stop crossfeed to the engines and then rout it with fuel lines. made no difference.

[Starwaster]

Ok, so its just an issue of not enough air? I find that hard to believe. And idk if it matters, but i tried using smart parts' fuel flow breaks to stop crossfeed to the engines and then rout it with fuel lines. made no difference.

So you thought it had plenty of air and it was just all going to one engine? Really ?

in your video, after getting airborne you should have opened up the throttle. You would have had no flameouts.

Or use something like MJ that shows you available intake air alongside intake air requirements. That will make a believer of you.

[TranceaddicT]

Nathan,

I've been rigorously going through my KSP.log and hunting down EVERY error that gets thrown to better understand what/where/when/why/how things work (or don't). Back a few pages someone commented about having something similar, but I could not find any resolution to the error. Is this:

[ERR 15:14:23.449] AssemblyLoader: Exception loading 'TweakScale_RealFuels': System.Reflection.ReflectionTypeLoadException: The classes in the module cannot be loaded.

at (wrapper managed-to-native) System.Reflection.Assembly:GetTypes (bool)

at System.Reflection.Assembly.GetTypes () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

at AssemblyLoader.LoadAssemblies () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

Additional information about this exception:

System.IO.FileNotFoundException: Could not load file or assembly 'RealFuels, Version=7.2.1.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null' or one of its dependencies.

File name: 'RealFuels, Version=7.2.1.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null'

working as designed? If it colliding with the RealFuels_TweakScale.cfg (a dummy config)? Or is there more to it?

Thank you for your work on this. (I look forward to RealHeat.)

[cremasterstroke]

There's currently an incompatibility with RealFuels and Tweakscale. It will be fixed in the next release.

[NathanKell]

Fuel lines, crossfeed, all that stuff applies only to resources with STACK_PRIORITY_SEARCH flow. IntakeAir, like electricity, is ALL_VESSEL.

Starwaster: Yep, I know the units/required increases. Working as designed, just like ion engines

(Best bet is to use AJE, which does to jets what RF+enginepack does to engines and FAR to aerodynamics.)

TranceaddicT: yep, as cremasterstroke says, plugins in KSP that (hard) reference other plugins will only work with the version number of the other plugin they were designed for. Since RF has been updated since Tweakscale was, Tweakscale's RF-supporting plugin won't be loaded by KSP anymore (it wants a different version of RF). That will be fixed by RF next release. But note that (for next RF) if for some reason you don't have Tweakscale but do have RF, you will get that message complaining about a missing tweakscale

Basically, those messages are the plugin equivalent of an MM NEEDS[] block failing.

[TranceaddicT]

<snip>

Right, okay that makes sense with the "Version=7.2.1.0" reference. Good to know for the future. Thank you Nathan. And you as well cremasterstroke for that link to the discussion. I really appreciate it.

And, thanks for the AJE tip. Didn't know about that one.

[Luscion]

Dont know if i'm posting this in the right place ( i apologize if i am) but does FASA work with real fuels? i know its not a full supported mod of RO as yet so thats why i ask.

[NathanKell]

TranceaddicT: cool!

Luscion: Real Fuels does not, itself, provide engine configurations. Check the second post for engine configs. It does configure FASA tanks (mostly--it may not be quite up to date) when FASA is installed and RO is not.

However, while support for FASA is not *finished* in RO, it does work pretty well.

[NathanKell]

Changelog:

v7.4 \/

*B9 configs removed from RF; they are included in B9 itself.

*Fixed so tank-switching can be done after a database reload

*Added procedural cost, with taniwha

*Fixed refueling pumps again, with taniwha (they respect flow and flow type, and cost funds)

*Autoconfig buttons moved to the top of the list, and fixed (will now treat jets etc properly, and both multimode modes)

*Supports multiple ModuleEngineConfigs per part (i.e. Multi mode engines, engine+RCS, etc)

*Maeyanie: add support for SXT and KAX

*Removed some unneeded Firespitter entries

*Supports Tweakscale again, internally. NOTE if you do not have tweakscale, you will get a harmless exception in the log about failing to load Tweakscale_Realfuels.dll. Ignore it.

*Made all RCS tanks into ServiceModule tanks (finally); deprecated old RCS tank type.

*Aristurtle Support blackheart's AJKD and KSLO mods.

*Raptor831: Support for Kommit Nucleonics, KSPI improvement, Near Future

Woo, finally!

Note the note, and make sure you nuke your old RF folder first, as the OP says. Files *were* removed.

Edited October 1, 2014 by NathanKell

[Luscion]

Luscion: Real Fuels does not, itself, provide engine configurations. Check the second post for engine configs. It does configure FASA tanks (mostly--it may not be quite up to date) when FASA is installed and RO is not.

However, while support for FASA is not *finished* in RO, it does work pretty well.

Now using a different config. Trying to find a engine that worked with the FASA's Liquid fuel & oxidizer tanks was near impossible (obviously). Thanks