[1.8+] Real Fuels

[Raptor831]

Thanks muchly!

(Having checked CRP, I note for any passing readers that it's "EnrichedUranium" and "DepletedUranium".)

-c

Correct. I haven't gone through and switched out those resources yet since RF 10 isn't officially out yet. There are a few resources that changed densities as well (MMH being one of them, IIRC), which will throw off the mixture ratios a bit. I don't think they'll be noticeable, though, unless you had something very finely tuned to masses.

[angelatthetomb]

Thanks muchly!

(Having checked CRP, I note for any passing readers that it's "EnrichedUranium" and "DepletedUranium".)

-c

Yeah, my quick ugly fix for that was just to copy EnrichedUranium and DepletedUranium at the end of the CRP .cfg and rename them U235rods and DepU235rods.

Other than that it works great! RealFuels is so rad I started a new career now that it's usable.

[FireFaced]

I just thought of how to the ISRU refinery would be useless if it weren't RF compatible, so in RF v10 can you find a way to make the ISRU refinery compatible?

[undercoveryankee]

I just thought of how to the ISRU refinery would be useless if it weren't RF compatible, so in RF v10 can you find a way to make the ISRU refinery compatible?

There's a couple of different levels of "compatible." You could patch the refinery to convert stock Ore into the most common fuels, or you could adopt something along the lines of KSPI's system with different resources to extract and conversions based on proposed or prototyped real-world processes.

The simple change-what-Ore-turns-into approach can be based on the work that Raptor831 did for Karbonite. Regex has done some design work on the more ambitious style of Real ISRU that may lead to a working mod.

[regex]

I just thought of how to the ISRU refinery would be useless if it weren't RF compatible, so in RF v10 can you find a way to make the ISRU refinery compatible?

What, so you can refine "Ore" into MMH? This is Real Fuels, not Gameplay Fuels. The ISRU refinery and everything attached to it in stock are pretty much disconnected from reality except as a broad concept.

[FireFaced]

There's a couple of different levels of "compatible." You could patch the refinery to convert stock Ore into the most common fuels, or you could adopt something along the lines of KSPI's system with different resources to extract and conversions based on proposed or prototyped real-world processes.

The simple change-what-Ore-turns-into approach can be based on the work that Raptor831 did for Karbonite. Regex has done some design work on the more ambitious style of Real ISRU that may lead to a working mod.

What, so you can refine "Ore" into MMH? This is Real Fuels, not Gameplay Fuels. The ISRU refinery and everything attached to it in stock are pretty much disconnected from reality except as a broad concept.

regex: I'm fine with a realistic (different resources convert into different things) approach to ISRU.

undercoveryankee: I'm fine with either way.

If you want it to be more realistic, I'm fine with it. I was just simply suggesting the use of the new resources system.

Edited May 15, 2015 by FireFaced

[Konnor]

Is there any kind of agreement about what this "ore" actually is for the purpose of realism mods? Or will it be ignored entirely?

[regex]

If you want it to be more realistic, I'm fine with it. I was just simply suggesting the use of the new resources system.

Sorry if I came off harsh there, but the stock implementation is complete fantasy and way out of scope for this mod. That being said, the stock system is based on Regolith, IIRC, which is a pretty good framework what any ISRU in the game could use. So, yes, the Real* suite of mods will eventual get ISRU beyond solar panels, but until then the stock parts are going to be pretty useless for Real Fuels.

- - - Updated - - -

Is there any kind of agreement about what this "ore" actually is for the purpose of realism mods? Or will it be ignored entirely?

I can't speak for other modders here, but as far as I'm concerned "Ore" is a fantasy in the same vein as Kethane and Karbonite and will never be used with these mods.

[undercoveryankee]

Sorry if I came off harsh there, but the stock implementation is complete fantasy and way out of scope for this mod. That being said, the stock system is based on Regolith, IIRC, which is a pretty good framework what any ISRU in the game could use. So, yes, the Real* suite of mods will eventual get ISRU beyond solar panels, but until then the stock parts are going to be pretty useless for Real Fuels.

- - - Updated - - -

I can't speak for other modders here, but as far as I'm concerned "Ore" is a fantasy in the same vein as Kethane and Karbonite and will never be used with these mods.

I expect that most of the audience for RealFuels will go for a realistic ISRU setup as soon as one gets published. Folks who used Raptor831's original Karbonite-to-RF work will probably be okay running an Ore-to-RF config at least in the short term (as a separate download and not as part of the RF distribution, obviously).

[FireFaced]

I expect that most of the audience for RealFuels will go for a realistic ISRU setup as soon as one gets published. Folks who used Raptor831's original Karbonite-to-RF work will probably be okay running an Ore-to-RF config at least in the short term (as a separate download and not as part of the RF distribution, obviously).

That's exactly what we need for now!

[Raptor831]

It's pretty easy to make a MM config to add conversions to the Regolith system. Assuming the module structure/variables are similar, you could probably just find/replace any differences, swap Karbonite for Ore, and use it with the stock system.

And, in my defense on the side of Realism^TM I did at least pick a chemical formula for Karbonite (CH4NO2) and work the chemistry from there. You don't get Xenon or Argon or nuclear fuel from it. It's still certainly magic (I mean, Syntin from an ISRU?), but it's at least internally consistent.

That being said, I'd be all for an ISRU mod in the Real* family. I am certainly no chemist, and I don't even pretend to understand how all of the processes work. There's enough resources in RF/CRP to sink a ship with, so there's plenty of stuff to find and utilize.

I'd be down to help with any Real* ISRU mod, too, if needed. I can certainly work with configs. The chem/math is what I'm sure others are better at.

[regex]

I actually did some design work on RealISRU today, I'll turn it into a development forum post when I'm awake and sober, and you can all tell me how bad it's going to be. I'll post the link here when it's up and we can move the conversation elsewhere.

[NathanKell]

RF v10 preview/beta/etc is up. Let me know if it works.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/58kg84cqqq6s31h/RFv10.zip?dl=0

In addition to that zip you need Community Resource Pack 4.2: https://github.com/BobPalmer/CommunityResourcePack/releases

Follow warnings/changes above re engine pack; RO's KSP10 branch is updated if you want RO, else use Stockalikes.

[Senshi]

Now I can truly fire up KSP 1.0.2 . Can't wait for what's yet to come (new engine configs etc.) . Bright future ahead, it seems.

A big thank you to Nathan and all contributors for their hard work!

[FreeThinker]

Say, I'm looking into how RP-1, better known as Kerosine, could be used as a propellant in NTR and in IRSU processes in KSPI Extended and I'm looking for people advice, expertise, knowledge about this subject. I started a separate topic on the science forum. So please join the discussion!

[FreeThinker]

Another think, do you think it would be valid to interper KSP Oxidizer as Hydrogen peroxide. Then the standard LiquidFuel + Oxidizer could be interpreted as a H2O2/Kerosene propulsion which can both be stored at room temperature

[regex]

NathanKell has pointed out elsewhere that KSP's fuels more closely resemble Aerozine50 and NTO (N2O4), and the isps back that up for the most part.

[Warshawski]

RF v10 preview/beta/etc is up. Let me know if it works.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/58kg84cqqq6s31h/RFv10.zip?dl=0

In addition to that zip you need Community Resource Pack 4.2: https://github.com/BobPalmer/CommunityResourcePack/releases

Follow warnings/changes above re engine pack; RO's KSP10 branch is updated if you want RO, else use Stockalikes.

Question: Is this for 1.0 or 1.0.2?

Edit: Found out for myself.

Second question: How do I get the game to stop hanging while loading the NERVA?

Edited May 16, 2015 by Warshawski

[Raptor831]

Question: Is this for 1.0 or 1.0.2?

Edit: Found out for myself.

Second question: How do I get the game to stop hanging while loading the NERVA?

You're probably using Stockalike, right? The resources for the nuclear engines changed. Swap U235Rods for EnrichedUranium and DepU235Rods with DepletedUranium in the NTR configs. Then it should load. I'm going to be releasing a RF 10.0/CRP 4.2 compatible update Soon^TM.

EDIT: Apparently soon is now. Hotfix for Stockalike + RF 10 is up on the Stockalike thread.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Raptor831

[Starwaster]

Say, I'm looking into how RP-1, better known as Kerosine, could be used as a propellant in NTR and in IRSU processes in KSPI Extended and I'm looking for people advice, expertise, knowledge about this subject. I started a separate topic on the science forum. So please join the discussion!

I seem to recall it being in the neighborhood of ~500s

If you want to try calculating it yourself,

The formula for exhaust gas velocity is,

Ve = SQRT[(2*k/(k-1))*(R'*Tc/M)*(1-(Pe/Pc)^(k-1)/k)]

where,

k = specific heat ratio

R' = universal gas constant = 8,314.51 N-m/kg-^oK

M = exhaust gas molecular weight

Tc = combustion chamber temperature

Pc = combustion chamber pressure

Pe = pressure at the nozzle exit

The thrust and specific impulse are then,

F = q*Ve+(Pe-Pa)*Ae

Isp = F/(g*q)

where,

q = propellant mass flow rate

Pa = ambient air pressure

Ae = area of nozzle exit

g = standard acceleration of gravity = 9.80665 m/s²

(I tried to figure this out with Rocket Propulsion Analysis Lite but it refuses to analyze a monopropellant based rocket even though I've been able to make it work before)

You'll need to figure out what RP1 decomposes into at high temperatures too. Can't type more, eyes are shutting on me.... taking me 5 minutes to type the last 2 sentences....

[NathanKell]

Assuming there are no bug reports for v10, I'll be releasing it for real shortly.

[FreeThinker]

NathanKell has pointed out elsewhere that KSP's fuels more closely resemble Aerozine50 and NTO (N2O4), and the isps back that up for the most part.

Intresting, you got any sources to back this up?

[Hattivat]

Intresting, you got any sources to back this up?

Just use your google powers to find the Isp and density of the Aerozine/Nitrogen Tetroxide and UDMH/NTO combinations, and you will see that they match what you see in-game, no sources necessary.

[Senshi]

Finally got around to test RF on my Linux build.

Everything seems to work fine, except an incompatibility with Interstellar Fuel Switch (IFS).

You can adjust fuel content in the VAB using RF, but whenever you switch to the launchpad, it will get reset to the current IFS tank setup. This only applies to tanks that have IFS enabled at all, other tanks work fine in RF.

I guess IFS will always remain incompatible, so maybe add an incompatibility note for the release.

Especially CKAN users might get scared, because CryoEngines currently lists IFS as dependency.

However, above CryoEngines actually still work, as the required resources exist in RF (LqdHydrogen, LqdOxygen). But performance is extremely bad with their stock engine config.

[jstnj]

K i'm trying the v10 pre release currently...let me ask a question: Is this dependent on Modular Fuel Tanks to work, or the opposite (I should NOT use it w/MFT)? When I drop the two folders into GameData I'm not seeing any engine Tech Level's or anything like that as I did with .90 versions of RF.

Thanks all!

---

edit: Installed latest MFT...now the engine configs are available...but still having issues:

On a Kerbal X (Stock), the Mainsail and it's fuel tanks are all editable, but the supporting 1.25m stage fuel tanks wont allow me to fill them with aerozine + NTO...only liquid fuel etc. Any ideas? I'm using Ven's SPR...if that makes any difference.

Edited May 18, 2015 by jstnj