xZise Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) [...]They're not arbitrary volume units anymore. In RF they're liters. [For gases, liters at STP.][...]Okay, my main reason why I said that X can be any volume unit, is because it doesn't matter to calculate the burn time. As soon as both are the same, they cancel out and you get simply "seconds".[...]Also, the Engines GetInfo() that display propellant use per second is wrong, because it's an unoverrideable part of the original engine module and doesn't realize that its thrust will be lower at sea level so its fuel flow won't be any higher than in vacuum (it display "max" fuel flow, i.e. fuel flow at sea level). To get correct max flow in liters per second, multiply those numbers by SL specific impulse and divide by vac specific impulse.[...]So the "Propellants:" section like that shown in the OP doesn't really show the correct numbers Aren't you able to fix that? I don't know how it's drawn there but shouldn't you be able to do the calculation and then show the value.Btw your links on the images aren't working, because an "i" is missing in front of the "mgur".And well, I didn't make it to orbit even with 7 km/s. Unless something else is wrong and it burn more fuel than thought I don't think that stage has 7 km/s. And I'm pretty sure the mass was higher than 150 kg. I really need to start up the game and get some numbers so we don't have to guess. Maybe I can deliver some within the next three hours.FabianPS: Do you use 9.81 m/s² to convert between weighted specific impulse (s) and "normal" specific impulse (m/s)? Because I made few tests and confirmed statements of others that the conversion factor is actually more like 9.82 m/s² (see also: http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Isp#Conversion_factor ). Edited January 23, 2014 by xZise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NathanKell Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Only the second had the problem; it's fixed. Thanks!I can't change the ModuleEngines.GetInfo() method because it's Squad's own engine module. I *could* change what's shown on the action editor GUI by writing my own second info function and no longer calling mE.GetInfo(), but that still wouldn't change what you get from right-clicking an engine in the part list.Given that we've survived without anything like it until .23, and the usage per second shouldn't matter unless for some reason you're not using a vessel info plugin like MJ or KER to calculate your burn time, it's not been on my radar; I barely even registered it was there now.Also, wait, you're trying to get into orbit with only 7km/s dV? But it takes 9.3-10km/s! Well, there's you problem right there. Anyway, pic of the rocket, with info from KER or MJ, please, and I'll figure it out.MJ will use what the engine actually uses, which is 9.82 until I go through and set them all to 9.80665 Though that is on the order of 0.1%, or 10m/s for each 10,000m/s dV, so it's not like it's a major issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xZise Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Okay first of I don't use RSS so I should only need about 4 km/s. And second, I guess it's simply because of my inability. I did some tests and when I corrected the fuel flow I got the same value as MJ and tests on the launch pad yield the same burn time. Also I calculated some delta V values and MJ did it's job fine. I guess it was simply because I was still to deep into the atmosphere and the Vesta I'm using has a Isp at SL of 108.9 s.About the incorrect fuel flow value: Okay I mean if you know how to convert it into the real value it's fine. I peeked into your code and I know understand what do you mean.Fabian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcirish3 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Has any one made an Excel spreadsheet of the fuel ratios? Sorry if this has been asked a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NathanKell Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 xZise: sorry, I tend to assume people using 7km/s hydrolox stages are using RSS. Glad it's sorted, and I'll see what I can do about the info, although for the right-click info either the Isp or the fuel flow or the thrust will be wrong and I'd pick the fuel flow as the one to display wrong :]mcirish: fuel ratios are whatever the engine calls for. There aren't that many engines that share the exact same mixture ratio. Also, note that the mixture ratio quoted is almost always a mass ratio, mass of oxidizer : mass of fuel. (I.e. a 2.27 mass ratio for kerolox means 2.27kg of liquid oxygen for every kg of kerosene). KSP, however, stores resources in units of volume, so the number of units stored, and the ratios you see ingame, are volume ratios.As a general rule, kerolox ratios are on the order of 2.2-2.7; Hydrolox is usually 5.5 or 6 (with some lower); and hypergolics are all over the place, there are so many different mixtures (NTO/MMH clusters around 1.65 in US use though, IIRC). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xZise Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) xZise: sorry, I tend to assume people using 7km/s hydrolox stages are using RSS. Glad it's sorted, and I'll see what I can do about the info, although for the right-click info either the Isp or the fuel flow or the thrust will be wrong and I'd pick the fuel flow as the one to display wrong :][...]Yeah that 7 km/s stage wasn't intentional ^^ But with an 460 s Isp you get quite an amount of umpf. It's unfortunate that you can fix that really. I first though you made the text (on the screenshot, not that on right click/hover) by yourself. But after careful examination I noticed it is exactly the same as that shown on right click/hover and the default text. So I guess it's fine, though you maybe can add a note somewhere in the OP or readme. But I really love that mod (it might appear in the other posts that I don't). I haven't come around to use RO/RSS because I thought I don't want to overdo it. But when I look in the GameData directory now I think I already overdid it with the mods.One suggestion: Can you maybe switch the auto configure buttons and the manually configure table when editing a fuel tank? I don't know if some of you use it differently, but I only use the auto configure except for the RCS/monopropellant.Oh and maybe some bugs (I didn't pinned them to your plugin, but I'll test that): First of all it shows me that a Rockomax X200-32 Fuel Tank with only xenon should mass 0.58 Gg (580 tonnes) but when I fill it, it masses considerably less (I'll provide pictures later). The other bug is that when you go on EVA it doesn't use the monopropellant on board of the capsule. Now I didn't checked it without RF so maybe it's the intended behaviour. It appears that is the stock behaviour strange. I thought with 0.23 it would use monopropellant.Here are the images:Fabian Edited January 24, 2014 by xZise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agathorn Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 One suggestion: Can you maybe switch the auto configure buttons and the manually configure table when editing a fuel tank? I don't know if some of you use it differently, but I only use the auto configure except for the RCS/monopropellant.You know I have to agree with this suggestion. I find I pretty much NEVER use the manual fill buttons, only the auto fills, so I always have to scroll down past the manuals. It isn't a huge deal, but if the auto fill buttons were up top it would save me from scrolling the windows every single time.Though if it is this way due to the way the code works, I can understand. At a guess it might be that the manual fill buttons are all hard coded and don't change, and then the auto fill buttons which are dynamic simply get added after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NathanKell Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 Yes, I will be putting the autoconfigure buttons at the top.xZise: looks like a bug in the density calc in your first image; your second image looks correct. I'll find and fix.Also--yes, despite talking about how EVAs would use up a capsule's monopropellant, Squad pulled that feature at the last minute.And please, don't worry. I'm always happy to get bug reports. Well, not happy exactly (means I screwed up ), but I'd sure rather have them than not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebalu Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Maybe I didn't read everything about the engines in connection with this mode, but I don't understand why my engine doesn't work. In the gui I can see "fuel flow unsecure, very unsecure, risky". What could cause it? My vessel is on the 300 km orbit, and now I try to descent, but the engine is dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NathanKell Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 You need to provide ullage control for the tanks. Basically, when you're in microgravity, the propellants can disperse all around inside the tanks, and in particular away from the feed lines. If so, there won't be any propellant for your engine's turbopump to suck in, which means your engine won't start. Before engaging the engine you need to settle your tank by providing some forward acceleration to the spacecraft (some small solid motors kept around for this occasion, or an RCS burn). Try thrusting forward with RCS a bit; the fuel status should settle towards stable. Then you can ignite your engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plausse Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I did through quite some pages, I apologise if this is mentioned: I want to use real fuels with 'stocklike' engine pack by chestburster, but not RSS. Will things work 'off the shelf' or should I consider KIDS or such to avoid things going all wonky? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scripto23 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Wait, wait when was the need for ullage in microgravity implemented? I haven't seemed to need it, unless I just haven't noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebalu Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Thank you NathanKell! This mode is amazing! Keep up the good work! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starwaster Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Wait, wait when was the need for ullage in microgravity implemented? I haven't seemed to need it, unless I just haven't noticed.I think its actually part of the ignitor mod with support from modular fuels / real fuels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NathanKell Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 plausse: I actually went and added a question/answer to the FAQ in your honor. Scripto23: It's by HoneyFox's Engine Ignitor mod. RF supports integration with it.Chebalu: thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plausse Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 plausse: I actually went and added a question/answer to the FAQ in your honor. Thanks for that..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xZise Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Maybe I didn't read everything about the engines in connection with this mode, but I don't understand why my engine doesn't work. In the gui I can see "fuel flow unsecure, very unsecure, risky". What could cause it? My vessel is on the 300 km orbit, and now I try to descent, but the engine is dead.Usually you need fuel at the bottom of the tank where the engines are attached. If the engine is not pressure fed (on J_Davis stockalike config all O enginesare pressure fed, (s)he said also U+ but I'm not sure, the Vesta isn't) you need something to push the fuel to the bottom. On the launch pad or after a landing for example on the Mun it is done by gravity. As long as engines are running they push the craft against the fuel. Although if your engine isn't powerful enough and you are in an atmosphere it might happen that the atmosphere is slowing the craft down which results in the fuel floating around or even "splashing" on the other side. And when no engine is running you are in weightlessness (especially if you are not in an atmosphere) which cases the fuel to float around so it might leave the input the turbopumps. That's why shortly after cut of it is still (very) stable, but after time it gets unstable. A trick might be to centrifuge the fuel to the end, but be careful with starting your engine. HoneyFox (the developer of that mod) suggest to throttle up slowly to avoid draining the input of the turbopumps to quickly.But usually you have some sort of engine which can be start always which pushes the craft a little bit forward resulting in the movement of the fuel to the engine. I suggest to use Sepatrons, or if you have KW Rocketry installed the Ullage Motors to push the craft slightly forward. RCS normally doesn't suffice as the thrust is to low, or you need quite a bit of it.FabianPS: This is the mod we are talking about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chebalu Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Thanks xZise! Yesterday I read about ullage a lot. I always learn lots of new things, this is what I like in KSP. Playing with the throttle, slowly to avoid draining is another new thing. I met with this (activated engine for a very short period and goes off) but now I understand. Thanks again!Balázs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scripto23 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Does anyone know how to use RealFuels to correctly modify an engine using ModuleEnginesFX? I tried to use it the traditional way on an engine (in the same manner as I would for ModuleEngines and ModuleEngineConfigs) but nothing was visible when I selected an engine in the action groups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agathorn Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Does anyone know how to use RealFuels to correctly modify an engine using ModuleEnginesFX? I tried to use it the traditional way on an engine (in the same manner as I would for ModuleEngines and ModuleEngineConfigs) but nothing was visible when I selected an engine in the action groups.They might not yet be compatible. I think I remember Nathan saying they would be in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NathanKell Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 Sadly I don't have support for ModuleEnginesFX yet. It doesn't look that bad to do, though, so expect it in the next update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agathorn Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) Hey Scripto, just an FYI I think you have your numbers off on the SpaceX Dragon capsule. If you place it, then go to configure it for RF, it says available volume -40000 / 3280EDIT:Also the SuperDraco nacelles don't seem to be configured properly. Selecting them gives no RF config panel, and they seem to be using the old stock MonoProp rather than MMH. Edited January 26, 2014 by Agathorn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scripto23 Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Agathorn, thanks I'll take a look at what happened there. Maybe I can't math.As for the SuperDracos, did you grab the updated files Laz posted? If so, they use the new ModuleEnginesFX which is why I was asking about them and it appears RF won't work for them (yet). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scripto23 Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Agathorn, I think I know what happened. Are you not using ECLSS? I added in support for that so the Dragon will carry Oxygen and room for CO2. If you don't want to use life support I can post some code for you paste in to the cfg if you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agathorn Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Agathorn, I think I know what happened. Are you not using ECLSS? I added in support for that so the Dragon will carry Oxygen and room for CO2. If you don't want to use life support I can post some code for you paste in to the cfg if you want.I do have Laz's latest update so that explains that. As for ECLSS I AM using that. That is asmi's life support right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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