[1.8+] Real Fuels

[ZaPPPa]

Glad we can help. Yours and RedAV8R's mods are essential for me.

After some more testing I noticed a similar thing is happening to engines and perhaps the two are related. In the following tests I tweak the scale of engines and test the thrust levels.

- First I create a very basic ship with a MK1 pod, a T400 fuel tank and I attach a Signifer to it (I use your RftSv2 engine pack).

- Before I rescale the Signifer, I fill the fuel tank with the default fuel for the Signifer

- I then scale down the Signifer to 1.25m

- The SLT on MechJeb reads 0.44 meaning that the ship should not be able to lift off.

I go to launch the vessel and on the launchpad Mechjeb reads as follows:

The vessel lifts off with ease, with a SLT of 1.71 (the default value of a default scale Signifer)

I have tested the same with a small engine that is being up-scaled. All engines always go to their default thrust levels on launch.

[ThorBeorn]

I was wondering what parameters can be changed under the CONFIG node in ModuleEngineConfigs?

I know max/min thrust, PROPELLANT and ratios, Isp etc can be changed. But what else? Things like mass, FX, attach nodes etc?

[RedAV8R]

@NathanKell: Is it possible in the VAB in the Action Groups setting to have the RealFuels GUI be movable? Right now it's stationary in the bottom right hand corner. If say a part has RealFuels and RealChutes installed, in the action groups they are on top of each other. Makes it kind of hard ya know.

[NathanKell]

RedAV8R: yes, I will enable that. It's on the Giant List [of death (to me)]

ThorBeorn: *everything* can be changed; that node is, after processing by RF, loaded directly by the engine, so anything you could put in the MODULE node, you can put there.

ZaPPa: that's funny, shouldn't even be able to scale up engines, I thought I had that turned off. It certainly won't work.

[Starwaster]

ZaPPa: that's funny, shouldn't even be able to scale up engines, I thought I had that turned off. It certainly won't work.

Are there any plans that engine scaling will be supported?

[NathanKell]

I will eventually, but it takes doing some fancy footwork, and I'll have to integrate support into ModuleEngineConfigs for it, since we don't want it and TweakScale fighting.

[Northstar1989]

@NathanKell

I know this probably isn't the highest of priorities at the moment, what with still trying to get RealFuels to play nicely with B9 Aerospace (currently many fuel tanks show up duplicated with both installed, or not at all) and TweakScale, but is there any chance you could release a RealFuels + KSP-Interstellar Integration config, or somebody else here could take up the mantle with your guidance? (I don't really have the programming knowledge, or understanding of how RealFuels works w.r.t. its modular fuel system under-the-hood to do this myself)

It's not just a matter of renaming LiquidFuel to LiquidHydrogen and Oxidizer to LiquidOxygen- there's also the matter of Methane/LiquidMethane and the two different "Ammonia" resources (which I think have slightly different names). Keep in mind that ALL of these pairs have different densities- and as such there needs to be some sort of attempt to release alternate configs of the KSP-Interstellar engines and fuel tanks that account for the different fuel densities if all the KSP-Interstellar fuels are simply re-named to the RealFuels fuel names (which are much more logically named).

Also, there would need to be a config to give the KSP-Interstellar fuel tanks RealFuels style modular-tweakable capacity (so you can choose *precisely* how much Ammonia a KSP-Interstellar ammonia tanks holds, for instance), or to disable them altogether.

I hope it goes without saying that this config would need to not only include tweaks to fuel tanks, but tweaks to the KSP-Interstellar engine parts as well, to make them work with RealFuels resources...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited October 7, 2014 by Northstar1989

[regex]

I suggest you check out the ModuleManager Docs and start with transitioning the fuels over. That's pretty easy. You can then assign existing tank types from Real Fuels for the conventional stuff and perhaps define a new tank type for the odd things in KSPI. That's pretty tough, since you have to interface the two mods, but quite doable. Then, adjust resource mining values for the new resources. This is pretty easy, but is tedious because you need to find part names.

[undercoveryankee]

@NathanKell

I know this probably isn't the highest of priorities at the moment, what with still trying to get RealFuels to play nicely with B9 Aerospace (currently many fuel tanks show up duplicated with both installed, or not at all) and TweakScale, but is there any chance you could release a RealFuels + KSP-Interstellar Integration config, or somebody else here could take up the mantle with your guidance? (I don't really have the programming knowledge, or understanding of how RealFuels works w.r.t. its modular fuel system under-the-hood to do this myself)

It's not just a matter of renaming LiquidFuel to LiquidHydrogen and Oxidizer to LiquidOxygen- there's also the matter of Methane/LiquidMethane and the two different "Ammonia" resources (which I think have slightly different names). Keep in mind that ALL of these pairs have different densities- and as such there needs to be some sort of attempt to release alternate configs of the KSP-Interstellar engines and fuel tanks that account for the different fuel densities if all the KSP-Interstellar fuels are simply re-named to the RealFuels fuel names (which are much more logically named).

Also, there would need to be a config to give the KSP-Interstellar fuel tanks RealFuels style modular-tweakable capacity (so you can choose *precisely* how much Ammonia a KSP-Interstellar ammonia tanks holds, for instance), or to disable them altogether.

I hope it goes without saying that this config would need to not only include tweaks to fuel tanks, but tweaks to the KSP-Interstellar engine parts as well, to make them work with RealFuels resources...

Regards,

Northstar

Interstellar engines aren't that hard to change. They get all of the data about their fuel modes from a config file.

And replacing an Interstellar resource with a third-party resource that has a different density I've already done once. Replaced KSPI Argon with NearFuture ArgonGas. Fortunately, most of Interstellar's resource producers and consumers check the density of the resource at runtime instead of making you manually recalculate every conversion ratio to fit the densities of the resources you're using. A ModuleManager config to multiply all of the tank capacities by the ratio of densities is the hardest part.

I've actually been thinking about attacking KSPI/RF if RoverDude slows down enough that I get bored with KSPI/CRP.

Edited October 7, 2014 by undercoveryankee

[NathanKell]

Ah, answered this in the thread you started in General Addons.

RF *does* have a config file that modifies KSPI resources; I take it by your post it's not working right.

It is quite dated, so I'm not surprised.

Also, RF v7.4 *should* work with B9. Make sure you followed the instructions in the OP and deleted your RF folder before installing it, otherwise configs from prior versions will persist (and double up B9 tank configs).

[Northstar1989]

Ah, answered this in the thread you started in General Addons.

RF *does* have a config file that modifies KSPI resources; I take it by your post it's not working right.

It is quite dated, so I'm not surprised.

I was vaguely aware of the old RF/KSP-I config, but yeah, last I checked (which was quite a while ago) it was already dated and not working right from what I heard.

It *might* be a good place to start with a more recent fix, though (perhaps one that could make the RF front page so that it *stays* updated, with people taking it over as needed?) Could you provide a link to it, since it seems you located it again?

I suggest you check out the ModuleManager Docs and start with transitioning the fuels over. That's pretty easy. You can then assign existing tank types from Real Fuels for the conventional stuff and perhaps define a new tank type for the odd things in KSPI. That's pretty tough, since you have to interface the two mods, but quite doable. Then, adjust resource mining values for the new resources. This is pretty easy, but is tedious because you need to find part names.

Regex, it sounds like you already have some experience trying to tackle a RF/KSP-I fix. I don't suppose I could convince you to tackle an official integration config that might keep permanent residence on the front page here? I don't have the first idea where to begin with something like this...

As I understand it, though, the only resources that actually need to be *changed* or fixed in any way are those with duplicates (or resources that represent the same thing) in KSP-Interstellar and RealFuels. Which means LiquidFuel/LiquidHydrogen, Oxidizer/LiquidOxygen, Methane/LiquidMethane, and the two Ammonia resources...

Also, RF v7.4 *should* work with B9. Make sure you followed the instructions in the OP and deleted your RF folder before installing it, otherwise configs from prior versions will persist (and double up B9 tank configs).

Ahhh, I hadn't actually *tried* to get these two mods (B9 and RF) working right. I took the entry on the B9 Aerospace thread front post stating that RealFuels was currently broken with B9 Aerospace at its word...

Regards,

Northstar

Edited October 7, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Northstar1989]

I've actually been thinking about attacking KSPI/RF if RoverDude slows down enough that I get bored with KSPI/CRP.

I'd LOVE it if you and maybe Regex could attempt this. I don't have the first idea how to go about generating a ModuleManager fix myself, but could help you guys with play-testing whatever you're working on (and pointing out anything that doesn't appear to be working right) and maybe even try taking a look at the config revisions you're generating to see if I can learn anything about how to attempt something like this myself in the future (or MAYBE if I learn really fast, help maintain and keep updated whatever you two come up with).

Regards,

Northstar

[regex]

Regex, it sounds like you already have some experience trying to tackle a RF/KSP-I fix. I don't suppose I could convince you to tackle an official integration config that might keep permanent residence on the front page here? I don't have the first idea where to begin with something like this...

No, I have zero interest in that project. It's a lot of time for something I don't care about. I was just trying to help you find a good starting point, since you seem like a smart, dedicated individual who wouldn't balk at some simple scripting.

[NathanKell]

Northstar1989: If you look in the RealFuels folder, you too will be able to locate it.

Its filename starts with KSPI, so...

I'm happy to accept help from anyone who wants to update/maintain it; I have my hands full getting v8 done (soon , and if it stretches more than a few days I'll upload a fix for .25 to tide people over).

[NathanKell]

Real Fuels is currently in holding pattern, waiting on TweakScale.

[Camacha]

Real Fuels is currently in holding pattern, waiting on TweakScale.

Yeah, things are currently not working like they should. Some funny stuff happens, but actually flying seems off the menu. I think it actually broke my right click menu

Edited October 10, 2014 by Camacha

[Northstar1989]

Northstar1989: If you look in the RealFuels folder, you too will be able to locate it.

Its filename starts with KSPI, so...

I'm happy to accept help from anyone who wants to update/maintain it; I have my hands full getting v8 done (soon , and if it stretches more than a few days I'll upload a fix for .25 to tide people over).

Actually, the KSP-Interstellar .CFG was called "MFS KSPI", so it doesn't start with "KSPI"...

Anyways, I came up with some ModuleManager scripts by basically copying-and-pasting the scripts already used in that file and changing the resource names and relevant numbers to do some of the same things for MethaLox NTR fuel and Ammonia NTR fuel, as well as making the Ammonia tank modular.

Some work could still be done in limiting the Ammonia tank to just holding LqdAmmonia (note it needs to hold the RealFuels "LqdAmmonia" rather than the old KSP-Interstellar "Ammonia", which is why I just went and made the tank modular as a temporary fix), and in making LiquidWater the right density and one of the modular fuels with KSP-Interstellar installed. Still, it's progress...

Here's the link to the RealFuels/KSP-Interstelalr Integration Config thread (specifically, to the post with the new scripts) where my progress so far can be found:

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/95671-RealFuels-KSP-Interstellar-Integration-Config?p=1459379&viewfull=1#post1459379

Regards,

Northstar

[NathanKell]

Northstar: cool! I'd be happy to include them.

Folks, slight additional delay and BIG ANNOUNCEMENT which some of you may already know, but others may not. RF v8 will be changing a *lot* of resource names; regex has gone through the entire list, added about double the resources there were up to now, and fixed them all for consistency in name and in stats. This means that some resources will have changed name (LiquidOxygen->LqdOxygen, LiquidH2->LqdHydrogen), some will have changed density a bit, and some (e.g. NitricAcid) are split (e.g. to three different resources, IWFNA, IRFNA-III, IRFNA-IV) rather than a generic that wasn't quite any of them.

I am also taking this opportunity to once again balance tank masses against real life. Note that in many cases, this means structural coefficient will go up, which means you will have results closer to real life (rather than better than it). That, however, is taking a bit of time.

What does this mean? It means that 8.0 is save breaking. regex has written a patch to update the resource names in old .sfs files and .craft files, but no promises that that will work, and due to tank masses changing you would do best to start a new game anyway since craft's tanks will either not update (bad) or update and throw off center of mass and delta v (also bad).

I apologize, and I hope this is the last time for a long time (if ever) there's a save-breaking update, but I think it is very, very worth it; this is why I have held off making these changes until .25 came out, so the save breaking can coincide with when one is likely to start a new game anyway.

[drtedastro]

Sounds great... Many thanks for all of the great work....

Standing-by...

Cheers.

[TranceaddicT]

Nathan,

I hate to be a bother while you are updating RF, but I am still receiving exception errors. I have uploaded some player logs here. Each file has notations at the beginning for your reference.

Hopefully, I'm just being OACRD.

[rifter]

Folks, slight additional delay and BIG ANNOUNCEMENT which some of you may already know, but others may not. RF v8 will be changing a *lot* of resource names; regex has gone through the entire list, added about double the resources there were up to now, and fixed them all for consistency in name and in stats. This means that some resources will have changed name (LiquidOxygen->LqdOxygen, LiquidH2->LqdHydrogen), some will have changed density a bit, and some (e.g. NitricAcid) are split (e.g. to three different resources, IWFNA, IRFNA-III, IRFNA-IV) rather than a generic that wasn't quite any of them.

Will regex be adding unitCost to the fuel types at the same time?

Edited October 12, 2014 by rifter
quotes are good for clarification

[regex]

Will regex be adding unitCost to the fuel types at the same time?

There should be costs for all fuels. Some of it is conjecture because several added fuels have never been made in quantity enough to actually launch a rocket, but it's all there.

[miyuruasuka]

Sorry if I seem impatient, but when would 8.0 be coming out? I would be extremely happy to use RF on KSP 0.25...KSP without RF is not like KSP anymore to me

[NathanKell]

TranceaddicT: looks like RF<->Tweakscale issues? Will be fixed in 8.

refiter: as regex said, costs are in. They are normalized for 1 fund = $1000USD in 1965.

Release should be today.

[NathanKell]

Changelog:

v8.0

*SAVE-BRREAKING - however, regex made a tool to attempt to update saves. Post on the thread if you want to try it out.

*Redone resources by regex: some resources have changed name, a couple generic ones have been made into various specific ones, and many new (often scary) resources have been added. Note that all resources now have costs, normalized for 1 fund = $1000 in 1965 US Dollars.

*Redone tank masses to better match extant launch vehicles. LV performance will decrease, since mostly that means dry mass went up.

*Cryogenic tank type is now modeled on the Delta IV and Ariane 5 cores; the Shuttle ET is best modeled as a BalloonCryo tank with some ballast.

*RCS, RCSHighEfficiency, Jet, and Oxy tanks are deprecated. Fuselage is ServiceModule with slightly higher mass (used for planes) and Structural is Default with the same basemass as Fuselage (used for planes when the tank doesn't need to be highly pressurized, or have electricity, life support, etc.)

*Updated to MM 2.5.1 (and added FOR[] to the patches).

*Updated SPP patches for .25, redid volumes.

*Fixed for current Tweakscale; should now finally work right!

*taniwha: refueling pump now works, costs funds, and only works if at KSC.

*Disabled when incompatible KSP detected (.24 or any non-.25 version, .25Winx64), though unlocked versions are available on request by PM (on condition of no redistribution and no support)