[1.8+] Real Fuels

[Canis Dirus Leidy]

Sorry, wrong thread.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Canis Dirus Leidy
Wrong thread

[Dermeister]

 

%useRealisticMass = true
 %tankMassMultiplier = 4.807692308
 %unitLabel = L
}

RFSETTINGS
{
 engineMassMultiplier = 4.0
 useRealisticMass = true
 heatMultiplier = 1.0
 
 globalConductionCompensation = True

So if i'm using RSS without RO and i'm using stock engine configs should I use realisticmass or should I turn that to off?

Edited June 21, 2016 by Dermeister

[Starwaster]

On 6/19/2016 at 0:40 PM, Dermeister said:

 

%useRealisticMass = true
 %tankMassMultiplier = 4.807692308
 %unitLabel = L
}

RFSETTINGS
{
 engineMassMultiplier = 4.0
 useRealisticMass = true
 heatMultiplier = 1.0
 
 globalConductionCompensation = True

So if i'm using RSS without RO and i'm using stock engine configs should I use realisticmass or should I turn that to off?

Leave it on.

[Dermeister]

6 hours ago, Starwaster said:

Leave it on.

ok thanks

[allenby]

Does the current version of RF work with 1.1.3 or does it need to be updated?

[Adik3714]

On 24. 6. 2016 at 10:41 PM, allenby said:

Does the current version of RF work with 1.1.3 or does it need to be updated?

At least in combination with procedural parts it does not work for me. (Stock game)

EDIT: My mistake! It works fine. Sorry.

 

Edited June 26, 2016 by Adik3714
Sillyness

[Ant432]

On 15.06.2016. at 7:44 PM, Starwaster said:

In the PP configs look in the TECHLIMIT nodes. Look for lengthMin, lengthMax, diameterMin, diameterMax, volumeMin and volumeMax

Sorry for being so late, but this worked. Thanks alot for your help.

[NathanKell]

@Raptor831 if your thrust curve thrust multiplier goes above 1, you'll need to manually specify the nominal and max chamber temperatures. They are autocalculated by default on the assumption that the engine will never go above 100% flow rate, so if it goes well beyond that, it will overtemp.

See https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/blob/master/GameData/RealismOverhaul/Engine_Configs/Altair_Config.cfg#L33-L35

[TeeGee]

Quick question about ullage.

I'm using Vens stock revamp in 1.1.2 with real fuels and it says that the RCS tank is pressurized for all fuels. However. When I reach orbit and right click on engine activate, the prompt still says Very unstable until I ullage with RCS. I thought pressurized tanks are supposed to circumvent ullage? Is this intentional or is something not quite right?

[regex]

11 minutes ago, TeeGee said:

I thought pressurized tanks are supposed to circumvent ullage?

Pressurized =/= "no ullage required".

[TeeGee]

1 minute ago, regex said:

Pressurized =/= "no ullage required".

So even though the tank is pressurized.. I still need to ullage the tank before igniting the engine?

[blowfish]

7 minutes ago, TeeGee said:

Quick question about ullage.

I'm using Vens stock revamp in 1.1.2 with real fuels and it says that the RCS tank is pressurized for all fuels. However. When I reach orbit and right click on engine activate, the prompt still says Very unstable until I ullage with RCS. I thought pressurized tanks are supposed to circumvent ullage? Is this intentional or is something not quite right?

Pressurization and ullage are different.  Pressure-fed engines require more tank pressure, but that doesn't fix the ullage problem.  The point of ullage is that the propellant needs to be at the engine end of the tank before it will start (because you don't want gas to enter the engine).  Certain types of tanks avoid this by having physical separation between the propellant (liquid) and the pressurant (gas), but this really doesn't scale well to large tanks.  So RO abstracts this by saying that all RCS does not require ullage but engines do.  It's a reasonable approximation of how things work in real life.

[Dermeister]

I was also having rcs issue on the runway but once i got Airborne they started to work..

Edited July 1, 2016 by Dermeister

[Nnimrod]

@PART[SR_Rocket_625_01]
{
    @TechRequired = start
    @cost = 150
    @title = Fast Finch Booster Rocket
    @manufacturer = North Kerbian Aviation
    @description = The Fast Finch was the result of a project who's goal was to develop a solid rocket stage that could provide very high thrust for a couple seconds, for the purpose launching a smaller surface to air missile two kilometers into the sky and at speeds over mach two. The propellant is a double base nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin compound, and the propellant grain has 36 individual circular ports, so the thrust increases over the short burn.
    @mass = .288
    @MODULE[ModuleEngines]
    {
        @name = ModuleEnginesRF
        @maxThrust = 246
        @atmosphereCurve
        {
            key,0 = 0 250
            key,1 = 1 227
            key,2 = 2 0.001
        }    
        !PROPELLANT[SolidFuel]{}
        PROPELLANT
        {
            name = PSPC
            ratio = 100
            DrawGauge = True
        
        }
    }
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleEngineConfigs
        type = ModuleEnginesRF
        configuration = PSPC
        CONFIG
        {
            name = PSPC
            maxThrust = 246
            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = PSPC
                ratio = 100
                DrawGauge = True
        
            }
            IspSL = 1
            IspV = 1
            throttle = 0
            ignitions = 1
            ullage = false
            pressureFed = false
        }
    }
    ignitions = 1
    ullage = false
    pressureFed = false
    !RESOURCE[SolidFuel]{}
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleFuelTanks
        basemass = -1
        volume = 800
        type = Solid
        TANK
        {
            name = PSPC
            amount = full
            maxAmount = 100%
        }
    }
}

Perhaps someone could help me with this? I'm not what I'd call competent.

Do I need to add the ModuleEngineConfigs node if I don't need the part to have multiple configs?

The IspSL and IspV keys - I'm guessing those are for multiplying the Isp for higher tech level configs? Do I need them If I don't want multiple configurations?

What should I put in for the type key in ModuleFuelTank? Should it be Solid because it's a solid rocket or should it be the same as the propellant type?

 

~~

 

With the patch I posted, the thrust numbers are way off, something like 49MN, I have no idea why. I also can't get it to be able to hold PSPC, just solid fuel. I tried making the tank type PSPC, but that resulted in not being able to hold anything at all. It also said the burn rate was NaN PSPC/s, obviously a problem.

 

~~

 

Re. the description - I figure PSPC will be a substitute for my desired propellant for now. I'll figure out how to add propellants and define their densities later. The part I'm making is loosely based on the Nike booster/bumblebee family, and I wanted to use a high energy (for the time) double base propellant. I assume PSPC stands for polysulfide/perchlorate?

Edited July 2, 2016 by Nnimrod

[Raptor831]

On 6/29/2016 at 4:31 AM, NathanKell said:

@Raptor831 if your thrust curve thrust multiplier goes above 1, you'll need to manually specify the nominal and max chamber temperatures. They are autocalculated by default on the assumption that the engine will never go above 100% flow rate, so if it goes well beyond that, it will overtemp.

See https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/blob/master/GameData/RealismOverhaul/Engine_Configs/Altair_Config.cfg#L33-L35

I actually found that independently the other day. My heating problems are more an issue with FloatCurve and how it gets calculated. The curves didn't use tangents, and so therefore KSP decided that they should spike to 1.2 instead of flatlining. Which made them overheat. And even with tangents, it still does that a bit. I've minimized it mostly, but I'm still messing with the curves to get them perfect. At least now they don't randomly blow up!

Edited July 2, 2016 by Raptor831
typo

[NathanKell]

@Raptor831 ohhhh right. Weird interpolation. Yeah, that lead to a negative atmospheric pressure in KSP at one point

[Nnimrod]

I managed to get everything working, so that the part info in the tech tree/VAB is all correct. But when I test it, there's no exhaust FX (It makes thrust and depletes fuel, just no flame). I'm guessing this is because this?

@MODULE[ModuleEngine*]
  {
    @name = ModuleEnginesRF

And the game ties exhaust FX to whether their ModuleEngines is running? If that's the case how do I get it to make exhaust again? I looked in several real fuels patches others have made but either it's not there or I'm not seeing it.

[NathanKell]

ModuleEnginesRF requires an EFFECTS node. You can't use legacy FX with it.

 

Changelog:
v11.3.0

• Tweak to boiloff and to how conduction is compensated.
• Slight optimization in the ullage VesselModule.
• Attempting to add back tweakscale support for ModuleEngineConfigs.
• Update to KSP 1.1.3.

[Gaarst]

I am not able to tweak fuel tank contents exactly (only discrete fractions as in stock) in 1.1.3 (RF v11.3) as I was able to in 1.0.x, any ideas ?

[Nnimrod]

8 hours ago, NathanKell said:

ModuleEnginesRF requires an EFFECTS node. You can't use legacy FX with it.

 

Changelog:
v11.3.0

• Tweak to boiloff and to how conduction is compensated.
• Slight optimization in the ullage VesselModule.
• Attempting to add back tweakscale support for ModuleEngineConfigs.
• Update to KSP 1.1.3.

So by an EFFECTS node, is that PLUME? I tried adding exhaust with real plume (which I've also never used before) and this patch appears to work perfectly.

@PART[SR_Rocket_625_01]:FOR[RealPlume]:NEEDS[SmokeScreen]
{
  @TechRequired = start
  @title = Fast Finch Booster Rocket
  @mass = 0.288
  @cost = 117
  %entryCost = 585
  @maxTemp = 1800
  @description = The Fast Finch was the result of a project who's goal was to develop a solid rocket stage that could provide very high thrust for a couple seconds, for the purpose launching a smaller surface to air missile two kilometers into the sky and at speeds over mach two. The propellant is a double base nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin compound, and the propellant grain has 36 individual circular ports, so the thrust increases over the short burn.
  
  @MODULE[ModuleEngine*]
  {
    @name = ModuleEnginesRF
    @maxThrust = 283
    @heatProduction = 269
    @atmosphereCurve
    {
      @key,0 = 0 246
      @key,1 = 1 223
    }
    !PROPELLANT[LiquidFuel] {}
    !PROPELLANT[Oxidizer] {}
    !PROPELLANT[MonoPropellant] {}
    PROPELLANT
    {
      name = SolidFuel
      ratio = 100.000000
      DrawGauge = True
      
    }
  }
  PLUME
  {
        name = Solid-Lower
        transformName = ThrustTransform
        localRotation = 0,0,0
        flarePosition = 0,0,-0.2
        plumePosition = 0,0,.05
        fixedScale = 0.35
        energy = 1
        speed = 1
        emission
        {
            density = 1.0 8.0
        }
   }
  MODULE
  {
    name = ModuleEngineConfigs
    type = ModuleEnginesRF
    techLevel = 0
    origTechLevel = 0
    engineType = S
    origMass = 0.288
    configuration = SolidFuelIncreasing
    modded = false

    CONFIG
    {
      name = SolidFuelIncreasing
      maxThrust = 283
      heatProduction = 269
      PROPELLANT
      {
        name = SolidFuel
        ratio = 100
        DrawGauge = True
        
      }
      IspSL = 1.105
      IspV = 1.1
      throttle = -1
      ignitions = 1
      ullage = false
      pressureFed = false
      %powerEffectName = Solid-Lower
      
      curveResource = SolidFuel
      thrustCurve
      {
        key = 0.00000 0.01000 0 0
        key = 0.00077 0.01000 0 0
        key = 0.01234 0.15000
        key = 0.05089 0.50000
        key = 0.11642 0.85000
        key = 0.19352 1.00000 0 0
        key = 0.27062 1.00000 0 0
        key = 0.34618 0.98000
        key = 0.41557 0.90000
        key = 0.47957 0.83000
        key = 0.53816 0.76000
        key = 0.59368 0.72000
        key = 0.64611 0.68000
        key = 0.69545 0.64000
        key = 0.74171 0.60000
        key = 0.78543 0.56700
        key = 0.82652 0.53300
        key = 0.86507 0.50000
        key = 0.90170 0.47500
        key = 0.93639 0.45000
        key = 0.96916 0.42500
        key = 1.00000 0.40000
      }
      
    }
  }
  ignitions = 1
  ullage = false
  pressureFed = false
  !RESOURCE[SolidFuel]{}
    MODULE
    {
        name = ModuleFuelTanks
        basemass = -1
        volume = 250
        type = Solid
        TANK
        {
            name = SolidFuel
            amount = full
            maxAmount = 100%
        }
    }

  
}

Is there a better place to ask questions about using real fuels? I can't learn everything from trial and error and looking at other people's patches, and I may have made a working patch, but I don't understand most of it. Like what function does specifying the Isp via atmosphereCurve serve when it's calculated from engineType and IspSL and IspV?

[NathanKell]

At this point you're probably best served asking in the Stockalike RF Configs thread, tbh--I haven't used that system in ages, RO doesn't touch it except for RCS. @Raptor831 will have a better working knowledge than I (not least because it has literally been 2.5 years since I wrote the code).

 

Regarding the PLUME bit--yep, if you have RealPlume installed, it will recognize that node and add the whole EFFECTS setup for you.

[Raptor831]

@Nnimrod The IspSL and IspV are basically ratios of the "standard" Isp for a given engine type and tech level. The Isp curve will be the "default" when it loads up, but Real Fuels will use the ratios if they exist. You can just define Isp curves within the CONFIG nodes, though, like RO does if you just want a specific Isp.

[Nnimrod]

Thanks @NathanKell and @Raptor831

[Dermeister]

I'm using real fuels, i'm not using Realism overhaul.But i'm using RSS

I don't know if it's a bug or if i'm doing anything wrong but i'm in the process of designing a space shuttle. I have In the external tank LOX and Liquid Hydrogen. I have a tank inside that tank comprised of an auto mixture of Areozine50 and NTO( which is what my OMS engines use).  I have onboard fuel tanks IN THE SHUTTLE to which I have deactivated for the duration of the launch so that I don't accidently use up my onboard fuel( stored for final circularization and orbital maneuvers ) It's also Areozine50 and NTO.

The problem is that when ever I go click on the onboard fuel tanks for the Areozine50 and NTO my OMS engines think it's out of fuel? I don't know what's happening but clearly I have fuel as you can see In the screenshot! Further testing on the runway recreates the issue I have in space after SEP, But I've noticed that if the on board fuel tanks are Activated before you stage the engines, then the engines fire just fine as shown here.

You can clearly see i'm using the onboard fuel. So it seems like if you have the fuel tanks turned of and you stage the engines and then later activate the fuel tanks the engines do not detect the newly activated fuel source.

Is this a bug? Incase it is a bug i'm leaving my log and mod list on the event that some of the moders who can fix this problem are reading this. If it's user error then I would appreciate help to find the solution to this  thank you.

 

Here is the craft file and Log.

Dropbox link https://www.dropbox.com/s/gceilhwnteg3opz/Fuel Flow issues Craft file And log.rar?dl=0

Let me know if this link doesn't work ill find another way to share the files.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2016 by Dermeister

[Oromis]

Hi everyone!
I've designed a manned lunar mission in RSS/RO and have decided to use fuel cells instead of solar panels.
The smaller FC (750W) says in the description that it uses something like "41 liters of LH2 and 29 of LOX per week, including boiloff". I only needed two weeks but to be sure, I had decided to include enough fuel for three weeks... Well it didn't last even close to that. I think it lasted three or four days.
Can anyone explain me why? And yes, I've used cryogenic tanks.