What do you think about new science model

[Pawelk198604]

I'm ashamed to admit but i didn't knew that the new update has been released,

I was too preoccupied with other things, I had a lot of homework from my university :-)

Today I downloaded the updates, and I'm a little confused, Today i make my first unmanned mission to Moho, it's only planet except Dress that i has not visited yet. I noticed that some science module are single use, and transmitting science has been impaired, it good that i unlocked many tech in caarer mode in previous update:D

[kinnison]

I was hoping with the new Science Lab I could transmit data without science loss, or minimal loss.

It was not the case. Still better to make a return trip then transmit when trying to gain science

[tone121]

I think it was disappointing actually.. So was the transmitting thing. It's like 0 science and then 1,000 science for recovery.

[G'th]

They should really re do it according to the actual experiments.

The Goo and Materials experiments make sense when it comes to them losing science if you transmit the data, because the data isn't all there is to those experiments. But temperature or pressure readings? The only reason you should be losing science on those is because of signal degradation (which is silly for numerous reasons). Makes no sense that you'd learn more about temperature or pressure readings by looking at the actual equipment itself.

[Aragosnat]

@G'th: Part of the science data comes from the experiment. The other part comes from finding out how your tools fair after they are used and returned. As the tools used can become damaged during testing or just not work under such conditons. For myself that would explain why we gain so much on a return as they are looking at the equipment that was used during the experiment.

[Levelord]

The new science model makes transmitting the experiments entirely pointless.

It's more fuel-efficient, and more time-efficient to land, take the data and return the whole thing to Kerbin

Compared to landing, taking the data, flying up to rendezvous with the science module, dock, transmit data for a pathetic percentage, reset goo canister, refuel the lander, go back down, land, take experiment, fly up again, rendezvous, transmit for another pathetic amount, reset and after a while you run out of fuel in the storage containers.

I have not once found any use for the science module, and in my more recent visit to Munmus, I simply dropped small robotic science pods all over the biomes, and used my lander to hop from one biome to another visiting the science canisters. Also, since the Kerbal can now retrieve the data and store it in the command pod, I simply visit the science canisters and transfer the data to the command pod. After all that is done, I simply lift off and fly back to kerbin with only the command pod at hand with the full complement of data.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Levelord

[Pwnstarr]

I don't mind it. Being able to max out Science from one location by just transmitting repeatedly is cheap. Right now I have a traveling mobile processing unit - I go from one place to the next and take science observations, transmit, and move on since the value of repeat transmissions is so low. The only thing it needs is fuel, so I plan to send out refueling tanks to rendezvous with it. Just took a set of experiments from Sun orbit, now to move it into Duna and Ike orbits, rinse repeat as long as fuel is available... Hopefully I can get the Kerbals back home at some point but it may be a looong time. In the name of SCIENCE!

[Epthelyn]

I don't think that people understand the following:

- Using the science lab boosts the science output from experiments; if you happen to be in a position where you cannot return the lab to Kerbin, you can get more science than simply transmitting it without analysis.

- Having a crewed science lab on a craft allows you to reset experiments. That's in bold because people are whining that the science lab is bad AND that experiments are one use - It's one or the other, not both.

The only downside I can see is that if you don't like losing Kerbals, the science lab isn't exactly going to help you because you need Kerbals to use it. However, you can quite easily boost the science gain using the lab, transmit the data, then undock a smaller lander or return vehicle to get back to Kerbin instead of having to pull the rest of the rocket back which may or may not be a feasible option.

On the plus side, you can't spam science points from one location; you have to actually make an effort to explore the system to max the tech tree (or just use the moon still, which is pretty silly really).

[Pwnstarr]

Yeah, the Mun and Minmus science contributions should probably drop off really quickly. Additional biomes shouldn't be worth quite as much as that first landing... imo

[Kinglet]

In my opinion, the science model started out horribly. It's very, very, very boring.

[Kerbart]

In my opinion, the science model started out horribly. It's very, very, very boring.

I enjoy career mode but I agree with you. Despite harvester's attempts Science rapidly turns into grinding. The problem is that Squad went for a system that is easily extensible with new experiments, parts, etc. That's great. The downside is that it comes down on collecting (science) currency which invariably will turn out to grinding.

A better model would have been a mission based system where success unlocks new parts. Start with a basic rocket. Get lift off, get a bigger engine. Hit 10km altitude, get a bigger engine, and a decoupler, etc.

[Zapp Brannigan]

I like the idea behind the science system, but I don't like the way it is implemented yet.

For instance:

• Why do I have to deliver the same experiment multiple times to get the full science?
  If I successfully return a surface-sample or a goo-canister, that should always be 100% of the science.
  Right now I have to repeat all experiments 3 times. Pack 3 servings of goo, shovel 3 surface-samples and I need the same amount of Material Bays.
  
• Why can't you store full experiments in the lab?
  As I read the changelog I thought you could store the experiment in the lab, regoo your canister and are good to go for another experiment.
  Right now the lab with the transmission bonus is useless to me, because since there are TWO innocent Kerbins aboard I absolutely HAVE to return it. Only unmanned vessels may be left in my kerbiversum.
  
• What's "current data value" and why is it counted backwards?!?
  
• There is "too much" science to be done manually.
  Temperature on the launchpad, temperature slightly above the launchpad, temperature a little more above the launchpad, temperature almost above the launchpad, temperature above the launchpad............
  If the thermometer says "log temperature" why do I have to carry 20 of them to "log" the temperature?
  Just solder a little SD-card on there and let it log all the temperature-zones it moves through itself, because nobody knows where the boundaries are.
  Plus, once you have a temperature/pressure log and the respective zones of a flight, you can plan goo- and material-experiments according to that.
  
• There are no long-term-experiments
  It would be awesome if Squad would implement the mapsat-mod into the vanilla game and every map would automatically gain science according to its detail.
  

I know science and missions are still WIP and there are many things to come, I'm just saying they are not quite there yet.

@Kerbart

I think missions are reserved to gain money.

So do science, to research the parts, do missions to actually buy them.

Greetings,

Zapp.

[ddavis425]

Right now, transmitting data is useless, and the best antenna is the one you start out with, so there's a few problems. I find myself getting bored every time I play career mode.

I posted this in a similar thread:

I think there should be several changes. First, I'd like experiments to take time to do. I know you can just time warp through it right now, but I think Squad can come up with some way to discourage that. Secondly I'd like for there to be more experiments. I want to have a large variety of things to do, like radiation tests, geological surveys, core samples, etc. Another great thing would be interactive experiments. A really great example would be taking photos of planets Pokemon Snap-style (Maxmaps said he likes this idea, hopefully it goes somewhere). More biomes would be a good thing to have so that if you are using a plane or a rover to collect science you won't need to travel several hundred kilometers to get to the next biome. And while I'm talking about planes and rovers, there needs to be some sort of incentive of using those. Maybe for rovers there could be slight variances in soil composition in an area (like tiny biomes), making you need to travel around getting different samples. Planes could be used for aerial terrain surveys or even weather analysis if clouds are added. Lastly, I don't like the fact that it is very easy to drain all the science from an area. In KSP you can get all possible science from space near Kerbin with a single flight, but in real life we still send up satellites to study the Earth's atmosphere, radiation belts, magnetosphere, and so on.

[Junafani]

I am not really fond of current science system.

1. Why we can't reuse temperature gauges and other sensors that just give out numerical data? Non-resetable experiments get bit annoying when you need to take experiments from launchpad, from KSP and from runway biomes every time you get a new sensor.

2. How exactly is value of +10 C more valuable when you bring temperature gauge back? Temperature gauge is on side of the spacecraft so it shouldn't even have the old value in it when it comes back to Kerbin since it is constantly chancing even if you aren't actively measuring it!

3. How exactly I am inventing new rocket motor from EVA report about Minmus looking like dessert? Are science points supposed to be some sort of funding just to my research division that I get from science community when I do science?

However I like that you can't get all science points just from one measurement returned. It is good idea to take few measurements at different times to rule out any randomness from the data.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Junafani

[Zapp Brannigan]

However I like that you can't get all science points just from one measurement returned. It is good idea to take few measurements at different times to rule out any randomness from the data.

In real life that is very true.

In a game it just makes things cumbersome.

There is more than enough science to do in the kerbyway. If one spot is explored, let's move on to another one, please

[Kinglet]

I enjoy career mode but I agree with you. Despite harvester's attempts Science rapidly turns into grinding. The problem is that Squad went for a system that is easily extensible with new experiments, parts, etc. That's great. The downside is that it comes down on collecting (science) currency which invariably will turn out to grinding.

A better model would have been a mission based system where success unlocks new parts. Start with a basic rocket. Get lift off, get a bigger engine. Hit 10km altitude, get a bigger engine, and a decoupler, etc.

The community wanted career too much, squad got rushed, and they gave us grinding. That's the reason why I barely play career. Science is just about getting somewhere clicking, returning to Kerbin or transmitting.

[blspblackdeath]

Actually Squad and Harvester wanted to focus on Career mode. The community did not rush Squad to do it. The community was more interested in resources etc.

But on the rest I agree in you opinion. Science is too much clicking. I expected it to be more interactive so that Kerbals/Rovers would do the science with animations and such. But I hope the science system will be optimised and it is not complete yet.

[giltirn]

I agree that science in its current form is not particularly exciting. Personally, I think that engineering research should be paid for by giving money to researchers, and science should be a mission objective rather than just an alternate currency. For example, you could get a government contract to put a science rover on Duna, and you receive X units of currency for R&D and extra for completing the mission.

[ArmchairGravy]

I don't have any huge issue with either the lab or transmissions. Transmissions had to be nerfed IMHO. The lab's ability to reset experiments, and to store duplicate experiments, makes it very useful when used on manned return missions outside Kerbin SOI. If you want a probe to have multiple transmissions of material and goo science, simply add more material bays and goo canisters to the probe.

The vets who can do manned returns from Eeloo and Eve will of course find transmission useless. As a medium-skilled player, I find that there is a use for direct-return missions (Kerbin SOI), return missions with the lab (Duna/Ike), and probe transmissions (Jool & Eve).

Yes, science could use tweaking, but I think the overall foundation is solid, and is not at all a grind IF the right designs are used. If you're only hitting one biome at a time on those Minmus and Mun missions, yeah, that's gonna be a slog.

[Zapp Brannigan]

The lab's ability to reset experiments, and to store duplicate experiments, makes it very useful when used on manned return missions outside Kerbin SOI.

How?

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but "storing" an experiment renders the device useless.

By "storing" I mean, get Jeb EVA, grab the Goo and have him put it in the Lab. After that, the Goo Canister is broken.

When I am analyzing the experiment and then reset the Goo Canister, the Lab has no stored experiments.

I would love to use one canister and the lab for all my Goo experiments and then return home... maybe I'm doing it wrong?

And I agree, that science isn't exactly a grind, but it would be nice, if there was some hint, that conditions have changed and new experiments are due.

Right now it's randomly clicking the experiments and hoping, that science points occur.

A mapping device of some sort would be most helpful and also damn realistic.

[TMS]

How?

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but "storing" an experiment renders the device useless.

By "storing" I mean, get Jeb EVA, grab the Goo and have him put it in the Lab. After that, the Goo Canister is broken.

If you EVA, grab all the experiments/data and then store them in the Science module (must be manned by two kerbals), the science module will give you the option to clean the materials bay and goo canister.

[Superfluous J]

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but "storing" an experiment renders the device useless.

By "storing" I mean, get Jeb EVA, grab the Goo and have him put it in the Lab. After that, the Goo Canister is broken.

...

I would love to use one canister and the lab for all my Goo experiments and then return home...

I haven't done it yet, but my first manned science mission anywhere is going to have a bunch of droppable Science Jr/Goo modules so I can do the science, send it, do the science again, store it, and then drop the pod. I agree though that it makes no sense. Either you can reset the experiment or you can't. Transmitting data in the Kerbal Universe seems to destroy some things (soil samples) yet make other things reusable (goo containers). So what is it, Wonkavision or Retcon?

A mapping device of some sort would be most helpful and also damn realistic.

I don't like the idea of the game telling me exactly where the biomes are, even if I have to work toward it. Most of the current biomes are pretty obvious just by looking at the planet and thinking for second or two, and the others could be nice surprises. And you don't need all the science in all the biomes on all the planets by even a large margin.

Edited January 2, 2014 by 5thHorseman

[JebidiahsBigSister]

I find the "Science" to be nothing more than a grind. The aspect that I most like about KSP (and suspect this is true for most players) is the creation of (sometimes wacky) ships to do things and go places. How do I design a ship to go to Eve? How to design one to land there and come back? How do I make an SSTO? How can I get that SSTO to Laythe? And so on ... That's the great and most fun aspect of KSP- designing stuff (and sometimes watching your designed stuff blow up - but not so much). Going someplace and clicking on a "science-thingy" and getting points for it is kind of an anti-climax - the fun was in getting there successfully in the first place.

I would much rather see the devs develop more interesting and challenging places to go with more things to see and puzzles to solve - like the SSTV Duna signal - remember how much interest and threads that generated? Those sort of things are fun and challenging but clicking on a barometer (or goo) for a dozen missions in order to get enough points for a better engine is, imho, just a grind.

Edited January 2, 2014 by JebidiahsBigSister

[Zapp Brannigan]

If you EVA, grab all the experiments/data and then store them in the Science module (must be manned by two kerbals), the science module will give you the option to clean the materials bay and goo canister.

I did not notice that option, but I will recheck.

Apart from that, having to EVA to every experiment to store it in the lab... that's grinding, because it's no challenge. It's work. What about a "store and reset" button?

I don't like the idea of the game telling me exactly where the biomes are [...] And you don't need all the science in all the biomes on all the planets by even a large margin.

I think if you do science on the poles and equators of Kerbin, Mun and Minmus and you get a little lucky catching the valuable altitudes above them, you can max out the tech tree without even knowing that biomes exist at all.

But mapping is so much fun!

Plus, I do not have enough time to spare to search the whole universe for easter eggs and puzzles. I need specific hints where to find them. In game hints.

Reading about it on the Internet takes most of the fun out of discovering stuff. And I haven't seen a single space kraken jet

I would much rather see the devs develop more interesting and challenging places to go with more things to see and puzzles to solve - like the SSTV Duna signal - remember how much interest and threads that generated? Those sort of things are fun and challenging but clicking on a barometer (or goo) for a dozen missions in order to get enough points for a better engine is, imho, just a grind.

That's a question how you play a game.

I like progress. Starting out small and getting rewarded with shiny new things for virtual goals makes me feel a little better about myself when I am wasting my time in front of a computer all night

I think of science simply as cargo that I have to gather from space and bring home to Kerbin. For me the game has a little more tension since 0.22, because when you lose a ship on your way home, it was not just a ship... it was SCIENCE!!!

And I still have to think how to solve a problem with the parts at hand.

Other people like thewinterowl on youtube mod the bejeezus out of their game, create their own parts, ignore clipping, carry tons of fuel in tiny canisters and make tiny engines most powerful, just to get a nice looking spaceship... but I myself like to play as intended... so give me my mapping device already, SQUAD!!! Please?

Edited January 2, 2014 by Zapp Brannigan

[Folke]

I have used the science lab once and found little practical use for it yet, instead I now just build landers or rockets with enough science equipment for each biome/orbit, store the data and ditch the equipment to return to Kerbin. It feels incredibly cheaty though but is currently the least time consuming and least repetitive for me.

I love the idea of getting science but feel its current implementation is too much of a grind.