researching optional upgrades for older technology at higher tier levels, possible?

[Fylas]

Does anyone know if this would work? If this was brought up before I apologize but my search didn't turn up anything :<

researching optional upgrades for older technology at higher tier levels

A friend gave me the idea about upgrading existing stock parts through the science point system or maybe by spending money after a certain technology tier is

reached.

The idea behind that is just cause something is outdated doesn't mean it's useless. The US space shuttle(s) were upgraded numerous time without changing

much in their design or shape at all.

Basically my idea was to create optional upgrades that allow you to improve certain parts or other things like Kerbal EVA fuel efficiency or increase the

thrust.

For example when you finally figured out to develop mainsail engines with the power of a small nation who says you can't use your new knowledge to make a

better jet-pack? if Eva jet-packs are supposed to use common mono-fuel soon then you'd also be able to accommodate for higher fuel consumption till efficiency

is improved.

Or if you develop improved batteries you could upgrade your command modules with a higher energy storage etc.

Ps: Don't fireball me for the examples , they are just that, examples ;3

I'm not talking about unrealistically huge upgrades or stuff like that, but it would allow a new layer of customization and depth :3

I know it would be hard as a mod. But what could work is some kind of script that takes the bonuses from an upgrade and applies it on top of the original

.CFG files attributes and uses the increased value for the part , things like a different fuel could be shown by adding an alternate animation that is used

instead of the original exhaust.

I'm not very knowledgeable about how Kerbal caches part data. But it would be awesome if ze beloved devs could add a way to upgrade stock parts with new

technology to improve their stats when your more advanced >_<'

Edited January 9, 2014 by Fylas
typo~

[IndigoCypher00]

I'm absolutely in love with this idea. IIRC, the Mission Controller Extended Mod recently introduced this feature--I haven't tried it, but I think I saw things like lighter structural parts after researching better alloys, or more efficient fuels in general.

[Fylas]

I got enough trouble to get it running properly since I have a very good graphic card but not eexaaactly the biggest memory or best cpu . so I haven't tried many mods yet :3 but I'm glad I'm not the only one that likes the approach

[toric5]

the problem squad has with this, as stated during kerbalkon, is that they like the community the game has, and this would round tyne ship exchange, as everyone would suddenly have very different engines all with the same name in the filesystem. its the same thing really with the radomized solar systems.

[Fylas]

Round? you mean ruin? What I meant is that it would probably less intrusive if there was a to add a bonus on top of the original stats without altering the original file, like if update X is researched = add + 200 battery power to mk 1 cockpit or whatever it's part ID. I was hoping there might be a way to implement this without altering the original files.

[42undead2]

Round? you mean ruin? What I meant is that it would probably less intrusive if there was a to add a bonus on top of the original stats without altering the original file, like if update X is researched = add + 200 battery power to mk 1 cockpit or whatever it's part ID. I was hoping there might be a way to implement this without altering the original files.

Yea but, if your ship is dependent on your tanks weighing, say, 20% less than they originally did before the research, and someone doesn't have that research, that ship would not work.

[vexx32]

Aye, it does rather mean ships will be less shareable, as the designs you'll need to use will depend even more on what stage of Career you're at.

[Fylas]

if it would count as a separate part that's no good I meant it as a local boost to the stats of the part, not it acting like a all new part. so that when you share it and that person doesn't have the upgrade they could still use it but wouldn't have the improved performance , example with the command module the mK 1 would just have the original energy storage instead of 200+ :/

[vexx32]

Yeah, that's what we're talking about, though. It means that one design that could easily reach the Mun for a person who's done everything in Career mode will almost certainly fall short, and by a reasonably large margin, too, for anyone not that far through Career mode. It means you can't share your craft as much, because not everyone can use them for what you built them for. In addition, how are the parts' stats in Sandbox? Are they normal, or are they going to be the "enhanced" versions you'd get at the end of Career mode?

[Fylas]

Yeah, that's what we're talking about, though. It means that one design that could easily reach the Mun for a person who's done everything in Career mode will almost certainly fall short, and by a reasonably large margin, too, for anyone not that far through Career mode. It means you can't share your craft as much, because not everyone can use them for what you built them for. In addition, how are the parts' stats in Sandbox? Are they normal, or are they going to be the "enhanced" versions you'd get at the end of Career mode?

I thought that similar to the already researched tab there could be a third tab where you could manage all unlocked upgrades and toggle them there individually, or all at once ( or as a possible third option, check which of the encompassed parts get upgraded as a drop down menu on the upgrade icon and which not if your into that sort of thing) or said function could be used by the mysterious unused building between the hangar and the runway as an added option or some sort of tinkering shop building to give it a more in game feeling, or as an alternative a simple extra button or menu during the KSP center view.

[vexx32]

Well, yeah you could then deliberately design for everyone, but in my opinion that is a bit of a big barrier to being able to share ships -- you'd have to cut your ship down to standard or zero level and make it as good as you could, and then share it. Very few of the really good ships could be shared, because they'd only work properly for people in the late stages of Career mode.

[Fylas]

Well yeah but then it would at least be share-able without altering it. Some people would probably deliberately take upgraded ships, run them in original mode and figure out to get it working by changing it, adding their own personal touch. Or you could take normal unupgraded vessels shared by someone else and run em in the powered form. No change comes without pro's and cons. I'd rather have it share-able with it's own unique does and don'ts then the only downside being "Not share-able at all unless exact same configuration" I do believe that not being able to share it is the bigger incompatibility issue.

[frizzank]

Your ships are already dependent on what tech level your at. Some one with only tier 1 upgrades cant use crafts with tier 4 parts. I don't see how this is any different?

[vexx32]

Because then you'll be making ships with parts that people less further along can still use, but the ship won't do what you can do with it for them, because the parts will be less efficient or useful.

[Capt Snuggler]

what if the parts tech level stat is stored in the craft file?

eg. I make an SSTO with level 3 structural fuselage (lighter & stronger connection nodes).

I put it on space port some one DLs it and loads it into career mode. to use it they must first "buy" the craft built by me, the 3rd party contractor. (making ship design companies a little more real )

the craft will be single use and you must buy it each time you load it to the launch so don't crash!

The craft will have all the special tech level 3 structural fuselage parts but the part will be restricted to that craft. (renaming or reverse engineering results in parts defaulting back to your current tech level)

you will still need to research/unlock the part to use in your designs.

yes people will be able to cheat by editing craft files. but so what. people can cheat already.

*edit

the crafts name could be locked or at least have a Prefix to show who built it. also the mission flag would also be locked to that of the designer.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Capt Snuggler

[Fylas]

what if the parts tech level stat is stored in the craft file?

eg. I make an SSTO with level 3 structural fuselage (lighter & stronger connection nodes).

I put it on space port some one DLs it and loads it into career mode. to use it they must first "buy" the craft built by me, the 3rd party contractor. (making ship design companies a little more real )

the craft will be single use and you must buy it each time you load it to the launch so don't crash!

The craft will have all the special tech level 3 structural fuselage parts but the part will be restricted to that craft. (renaming or reverse engineering results in parts defaulting back to your current tech level)

you will still need to research/unlock the part to use in your designs.

yes people will be able to cheat by editing craft files. but so what. people can cheat already.

*edit

the crafts name could be locked or at least have a Prefix to show who built it. also the mission flag would also be locked to that of the designer.

consumable crafts and that craft doesn't really have anything to do with optional upgrades to stock parts that's more an extension of currency use in a further advanced career mode where you have a budget and means of getting money. but the idea is nice You could add licensing that would allow you to use that unique part on your own constructions which would buy you the right to buy the special part for general use but at a much higher costs then for the unique 1 use ship XD And to keep some fairness how would you go on about the salvage value? ,

And back to the upgrades. What if an upgrade has a fixed bonus value when activated and instead of saving the ID of the parts affected in the upgrades information each part contains an additional information section that lists the ID's of all upgrades that can affect it. This way modders could add compatibility to "stock" upgrades right? Got a Command module? No need to do it per hand, open the .cfg of a command module and just copy paste the upgrade id section and change or keep it to your liking. At least to me that way seems less troublesome and streamlined, but to be fair I haven't slept in 32 hours. XD

[Capt Snuggler]

consumable crafts and that craft doesn't really have anything to do with optional upgrades to stock parts that's more an extension of currency use in a further advanced career mode *snip*

My suggestion was a way around the issue with craft sharing. where one player has not upgraded to tier 3 but want to use a craft file with tier 3 parts.

I wasn't trying to deviate from the topic, just offering a potential solution to the problem pointed out here:

Well, yeah you could then deliberately design for everyone, but in my opinion that is a bit of a big barrier to being able to share ships -- you'd have to cut your ship down to standard or zero level and make it as good as you could, and then share it. Very few of the really good ships could be shared, because they'd only work properly for people in the late stages of Career mode.

I thought my solution would allow for people to use shared craft with upgraded parts and have it perform in the way the designer intended no matter what "tech level" your stock parts are at.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Capt Snuggler

[Fylas]

My suggestion was a way around the issue with craft sharing. where one player has not upgraded to tier 3 but want to use a craft file with tier 3 parts.

I wasn't trying to deviate from the topic, just offering a potential solution to the problem pointed out here

Relaaax snuggler I wasn't intending to sound hostile,demeaning or in any form aggressive XD I didn't insinuate that you tried to deviate either. your method would allow for some rather complex and entertaining things, like one time components Example a mod that allows you to salvage the easter egg UFO's and allow some made up component from it as a funky module which only exists once or twice (I think there were 2 crashed ufo's) if you want to use it on another vessel you'd need to bring back the first and salvage it

[Javster]

Maybe you upgrade your old craft with new tech?

[Fylas]

Maybe you upgrade your old craft with new tech?

yup Like the US Space shuttles :3 that's the idea behind it allthough its more upgrading the modules the craft is made with, to upgrade old crafts with new tech you would need some kind of "refurbish" docking station/module which is actually nothing more then a glorified "parts reload" function to apply new unlocked upgrades to old crafts maybe even add a cost value to it with a modifier, so refurbishing existing crafts is more expensive then the original upgrade costs added on the regular parts in vessel creation.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Fylas

[Capt Snuggler]

So for upgrading existing craft (already in orbit) that cant be recovered and relaunched. maybe you would have to deliver a "upgrade package" to dock with the craft to be refurbished. once docked with the craft you then activate it with a Kerbal and the "old spec" parts are one by one upgraded to the new specifications.

this would make orbital delivery craft more useful. eg:fly your shuttle to the KSS and deliver the upgrade package to enhance solar panel efficiency or increase connection strength?

[Luckless]

I don't see the problem with sharing, but more a very minor problem with the VAB's UI while using it.

So you have an "A1" engine that you unlock early on in the tech tree. Later on you unlock an 'upgrade' to it, the A1M2 engine now unlocks, and a radio button appears at the bottom of the A1's button in the VAB so you can pick between the M1 and M2 model. (If for whatever reason you wanted to go back and use the A1, such as designing crafts to share with a friend.)

So now you keep moving forward with the A1M3, A1M4, A1M5, etc. All distinct engines in parts files, all reusing the same models, but displaying different data. Your super advanced and ultimately cool craft is harder to share as it means people have to level up more with you, but given time in a more stable finished product that isn't going to be much of a problem as lower skilled players eventually catch up.

[Fylas]

I don't see the problem with sharing, but more a very minor problem with the VAB's UI while using it.

So you have an "A1" engine that you unlock early on in the tech tree. Later on you unlock an 'upgrade' to it, the A1M2 engine now unlocks, and a radio button appears at the bottom of the A1's button in the VAB so you can pick between the M1 and M2 model. (If for whatever reason you wanted to go back and use the A1, such as designing crafts to share with a friend.)

So now you keep moving forward with the A1M3, A1M4, A1M5, etc. All distinct engines in parts files, all reusing the same models, but displaying different data. Your super advanced and ultimately cool craft is harder to share as it means people have to level up more with you, but given time in a more stable finished product that isn't going to be much of a problem as lower skilled players eventually catch up.

all distinct engines in parts files all reusing the same model? exactly that is what the optional upgrades are supposed to prevent. When kerbal loads a part it tells it what the part can do and its stats, the upgrade is more of an "hey wait a minute that value is actually higher make that 250 instead of 50 energy storage" for the upgraded part (in essence I know it wouldn't work exactly like that but that's the main idea behind it) rather then creating 50 variant clones of the same parts in the files it just contains the part itself only contains the information on what upgrades CAN apply to it, and the vehicle (in flight or save) contains what upgrades are active when it's loaded, bypassing the need for carbon copy parts. That's the main idea behind the whole upgrade stuff in my eyes

[Capt Snuggler]

I don't see the problem with sharing, but more a very minor problem with the VAB's UI while using it.

*snip*

The part would be the same. the part stats would update(improve).

dry mass, power output, power drain, impact tolerance, max temp, max thrust, connection point strength, gimble range, etc. these stats would improve, where applicable.

eg: when you first unlock the LV-T45 Liquid Fuel Engine,

mass = 1.5

max temp = 3400

Max thrust = 185

Gimble range = .8 *lower than current stock*

at this stage, building a shuttle is almost imposable. the engine wont gimble very far and it cant lift much.

but after much investment the stats improve to:

LV-T45 Liquid Fuel Engine Mk2 (the MK1 is gone, replaced by the improved MK2)

mass = 1.3

max temp = 3800

Max thrust = 210

Gimble range = 1.2 *example figures - may be OP*

Now its lighter (so the center of mass is better for shuttle), its more powerful, its more heat tolerant so it can operate at max thrust for longer AND the gimble range has improved to compensate for a shifting COM.

now you can build that shuttle! and share it with players even if they haven't upgraded their LV-T45. they can use the craft as you intended (it came from your VAB)

but if they modify your craft (re-name it or change the flag) the parts default back to their tech level (as if they built it) and the craft may not work anymore. (too heavy so COM is in the wrong place/thrust not strong enough etc)

this sort of improvement can apply to all parts. batteries improve capacity, solar panels increase output, engines reduce mass, etc, etc.

it would add a huge amount of depth and variety without needing extra parts to be added. (i still want more parts though )

[Fylas]

not what i had in mind :/ if the old version was gone and replaced you wouldn't be able to use the less expensive cheaper variant. Also the upgrades were more intended to affect specific attributes of a variety of low tech parts by either a fixed amount or a percentage modifier not 1 upgrade improving 1 part with the same looks replacing the old one, where is there the difference to a modded copy part? :<

I'm going to make some diagrams to show what I mean XD

Edited January 10, 2014 by Fylas