[1.10.0] Final Frontier - kerbal individual merits 1.10.0-3485

[Kogikoski]

I like this idea for new orange suits for experient Kerbals.

This + Texturepack for uniformes will be awesome!!!

[Smurfalot]

Well, the idea in general is straight forward. But originally I had new ribbons in mind. If we use the same ribbons twice, maybe it's doable.

Cloning the ribbons is not possible without changing the ribbon codes which introduces a very difficult problem later on. All ribbon codes must be unique; changing this would make a complete redesign neccessary that cost weeks of work with questionable success. But different ribbon codes for different gender are not a good idea.

Gender specialized ribbon codes are not that easy to implement, because we just cannot clone them. Alternatively a second list for checking if a ribbon is already awarded is an option (a list for males and another for females); but then the check is done outside the achievement ribbon code and we can't change the wording by just changing the text. Ok, we can change the wording if we change the achievement class to generate the text for each kerbal. So wee need a class to generate the text and another to manage the two lists and the is-first-checks.

And suddenly the simple idea turns into two evenings of work.

No, I mean clone the appearance of the ribbon so-- no new design work,

You can still give it a unique ribbon code/ID on the back end just like adding a "new" ribbon that just happens to look the same-- no additional coding work there.

Now that you have your "new" Kerbalina version ribbon (with its own unique code) you add the text just like you would for a new ribbon-- no need to write new code to generate new text.

From there you have a list of "first" ribbons for kerbal/neuter and a second unique list for the kerbalina version with the same looking ribbon, but different IDs and modified text

Then all you have to do is figure out how to award them based on a gender check, which can take place outside of the ribbon code-- no need to touch that.

If

gender = Male

it awards from list A (original ribbons-- "First Kerbal to do X"),

If

gender = Female

it awards from list B (modified text-- "First Kerbalina to do X").

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe a bug. I will examine this. Until then: Close it before recover or disable it.

It is just recovering the debris and checking to see if the pilot earned a ribbon-- the debris has no pilot therefore no ribbons are earned, so it gives the "Nothing Happened" message.

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I as well. Permadeath here too. Sorry to be that guy.

If you play with permadeath then it actually does not effect you at all. The game would be exactly the same for you both before and after the addition of the feature. You lose nothing.

[UAL002]

Well yes, but we gain nothing. We might just be overlooking a way to do this to satisfy both the respawners and the permadeathers. But yea.. if it comes to it no you're right we loose nothing... no big deal.

[Smurfalot]

Well yes, but we gain nothing. We might just be overlooking a way to do this to satisfy both the respawners and the permadeathers. But yea.. if it comes to it no you're right we loose nothing... no big deal.

Sorry, I am not trying to be a d*ck. I am just throwing out ideas, not trying to throw the permadeath players under the personnel transport rover. It is just a pet peeve of mine to have someone reject an idea without including a suggestion on how to improve the idea to satisfy their objections.

To me the answer to the permadeath question is very simple. We come up with a list of seriously crazy-dangerous things that are balanced so that it is still possible to do them without necessarily dying in the process and remove the "death" requirement.

Granted I think they should still be very difficult, but since the most common reason to play with permadeath is to add a level of difficulty for yourself, completion of the challenge (permadeath or not) should come with some major bragging rights.

E.g., Instead of "Burn to death flying to close to Kerbol" you would use "Fly within 2000m of the Kebol's surface."

I will kick this off with a list of things I think should be part of earning a the Orange Suit and BadAss challenges, feel free to make suggestions to add or remove (including your reasoning):

Orange Suit Challenge:

1. 
   Earn the following ribbons
   
2. At least one "First" ribbon
   
3. 20 Missions ribbon
   
4. 9G (or greater) ribbon
   
5. 30% solid rocket booster ribbon
   
6. 5 Contracts ribbon ribbon
   
7. Dangerous EVA ribbon
   
8. Land/EVA/Plant Flag on Minmus and Mun
   
9. Jool Tour Ribbon, includes SoI ribbons for Jool and all its moons
   
10. 2000 days Accumulated mission time ribbon
    
11. Pilot a Polar, Equatorial and Geosync orbit on Kerbin (no ribbons for special orbits)
    
12. Earn the Orbiting the Sun at half or less the distance of Moho ribbon
    
13. You get the idea.
    

BadS Challenge:

1. 
   Earn the following ribbons:
   
2. Complete the Orange Suit Challenge
   
3. Earn at least three "First" ribbons
   
4. 50 Missions ribbon
   
5. 18G ribbon
   
6. Splash Down Tour (Water landing on Kerbin, Eve and Laythe) (Currently no ribbons for Eve and Laythe splashdown or tour)
   
7. Grand Tour Ribbon (Includes SoI for all celestial bodies)
   
8. Jool-5 Challenge (land on all 5 moons in a single mission) and enter deep atmosphere of Jool (Grand Tour, Deep Jool, Landing/EVA ribbons for the moons-- Currently no ribbon for combining all of this, suggest Grand Jool Tour ribbon with a Gold boarder and a little decoration on it)
   
9. 5000 days Accumulated mission time ribbon
   
10. Fly within 2000m of the Kebol's surface task (Currently no ribbon for this)
    
11. You get the idea.
    

Edited May 12, 2015 by Smurfalot

[jarmund]

How does this mod perform if installed on an already started save? In particular, my save:

- Career mode

- Perma death on

- Loads of mods that I think shouldn't affect this mod (FAR, TAC-LS, Deadly Reentry, RealChutes)

- 1.0.2

- Plenty of crew with plenty of experience. Will these automagically receive the ribbons they deserve?

[Smurfalot]

How does this mod perform if installed on an already started save? In particular, my save:

- Career mode

- Perma death on

- Loads of mods that I think shouldn't affect this mod (FAR, TAC-LS, Deadly Reentry, RealChutes)

- 1.0.2

- Plenty of crew with plenty of experience. Will these automagically receive the ribbons they deserve?

I loaded this mod after playing some and you definitely do not get ribbons for things you did previous to the installation. It will only award for things you do after the install. (How would it know what you have already done?)

I think you can add them manually though, but I have never tried that.

[UAL002]

Its often better to start fresh if you have that option.

Smurfalot.. good suggestions, one issue that is a lingering bug. It may have been fixed already so correct me if I'm wrong. But under certain circumstances you can achieve the Dangerous EVA ribbon just EVAing on the pad.

Edited May 12, 2015 by UAL002

[Nereid]

Regarding the "orange bags". What do you think of

• 50 or more missions OR
  
• landed on any celestial body excluding Kerbin OR
  
• leaving the SOI of Kerbin, including all moons of Kerbin
  

50 missions seems to be a bit high at first. But 10 is way to low. I do not want to spam badasses.

But this way we get an orange for real veterans (50 missions) and extraordinary achievements (landing, leaving SOI of home planet/moons).

I'm not completely sure if I can implement this. But because other mods can change the "orange attribute", it should be doable if not very easy.

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No, I mean clone the appearance of the ribbon so-- no new design work,

You can still give it a unique ribbon code/ID on the back end just like adding a "new" ribbon that just happens to look the same-- no additional coding work there.

It's late, maybe I will answer in more detail tomorrow. But I don't think this will work. Why? Because it is an option an it could be changed. What if it gets changed? How do we detect first ribbons, if a female already got one? It is a different code so its not equal to the male equivalent. Ok, I can change the equals method... but wait? The hashcode is different because of the different code. And now we are screwed... ok, so we have to change the codes on load/ingame later on. But how can we detect those codes that have to be changed? ok, we need a mapping scheme...

Things are often not that simple as they seem at first. I remember quite a few similar discussions with some project leaders in real life.

[Gryphon]

Regarding the "orange bags". What do you think of

• 50 or more missions OR
  
• landed on any celestial body excluding Kerbin OR
  
• leaving the SOI of Kerbin, including all moons of Kerbin
  

50 missions seems to be a bit high at first. But 10 is way to low. I do not want to spam badasses.

But this way we get an orange for real veterans (50 missions) and extraordinary achievements (landing, leaving SOI of home planet/moons).

I'm not completely sure if I can implement this. But because other mods can change the "orange attribute", it should be doable if not very easy.

I am in favor of there being several paths to the orange bag. Whichever they are, they should be experiences such that you could imagine that Kerbal saying, "I've seen things, man."

Also, I'm against gender-specific ribbons. They all ride the same rockets. Just because WE have a history that makes it important to us, doesn't mean that Kerbals do.

[damerell]

Just because WE have a history that makes it important to us, doesn't mean that Kerbals do.

Quite. We're writing the history of the Kerbal Space Program. Valentina Tereshkova is remarkable not least because no other woman went into space for decades; but if we like, the second kerbal in space can be Svetlana Kerman, right behind Valentina. I don't want gendered ribbons. (And the word "Kerbalina"... ugh.)

[biohazard15]

Quite. We're writing the history of the Kerbal Space Program. Valentina Tereshkova is remarkable not least because no other woman went into space for decades; but if we like, the second kerbal in space can be Svetlana Kerman, right behind Valentina. I don't want gendered ribbons. (And the word "Kerbalina"... ugh.)

Actually, there IS Svetlana Kerman in-game:

Got her in a rescue mission. She even spawned inside Soyuz pod from Tantares mod

[Smurfalot]

Its often better to start fresh if you have that option.

Smurfalot.. good suggestions, one issue that is a lingering bug. It may have been fixed already so correct me if I'm wrong. But under certain circumstances you can achieve the Dangerous EVA ribbon just EVAing on the pad.

I have not seen it happen on the launch pad, but maybe if the craft is large and wobbly enough...

I think that strictly speaking the dangerous EVA ribbon will be awarded for any "unstable" situation, I do not know what the exact code looks like that defines what "unstable" might be. I have gotten it for EVA in upper atmosphere on a suborbital trajectory that ripped the Bob off the ladder and it was total freaking miracle I got him back into the pod using the EVA jets both he and the pod reentered and I have gotten it for EVA from a pod gently parachuting down.

I doubt it will be an issue that makes things too easy for the purposes of the challenges though. Considering the laundry list of other things you would also need it is the least of your worries

- - - Updated - - -

Quite. We're writing the history of the Kerbal Space Program. Valentina Tereshkova is remarkable not least because no other woman went into space for decades; but if we like, the second kerbal in space can be Svetlana Kerman, right behind Valentina. I don't want gendered ribbons. (And the word "Kerbalina"... ugh.)

Yes very true, I think it would be important to include a config that would let you keep it like it is if we can even get the gender thing to work.

[futrtrubl]

Regarding the "orange bags". What do you think of

• 50 or more missions OR
  
• landed on any celestial body excluding Kerbin OR
  
• leaving the SOI of Kerbin, including all moons of Kerbin
  

50 missions seems to be a bit high at first. But 10 is way to low. I do not want to spam badasses.

Just want to point out that orange suit doesn't mean badass. Of the four initial Kerbals only Jeb and Val are badasses.

[Smurfalot]

Regarding the "orange bags". What do you think of

• 50 or more missions OR
  
• landed on any celestial body excluding Kerbin OR
  
• leaving the SOI of Kerbin, including all moons of Kerbin
  

50 missions seems to be a bit high at first. But 10 is way to low. I do not want to spam badasses.

But this way we get an orange for real veterans (50 missions) and extraordinary achievements (landing, leaving SOI of home planet/moons).

I'm not completely sure if I can implement this. But because other mods can change the "orange attribute", it should be doable if not very easy.

I was thinking of it along the lines of two separate lists, one would be to earn your orange suit and one for BadS. The difficulty to earn your Orange should be should be reasonably doable, but no so easy that every kerbal ends up with the orange suit...it would lose its value.

As for the BadS...I think that list should be pretty crazy-epic to make it real challenge you can seriously be proud of...especially if you are playing permadeath.

It's late, maybe I will answer in more detail tomorrow. But I don't think this will work. Why? Because it is an option an it could be changed. What if it gets changed? How do we detect first ribbons, if a female already got one? It is a different code so its not equal to the male equivalent. Ok, I can change the equals method... but wait? The hashcode is different because of the different code. And now we are screwed... ok, so we have to change the codes on load/ingame later on. But how can we detect those codes that have to be changed? ok, we need a mapping scheme...

Things are often not that simple as they seem at first. I remember quite a few similar discussions with some project leaders in real life.

Lol you are in good hands then, I just happen to be one of those project managers in real life and work through similar problems with my devs on a regular basis

I will probably have to sleep on it as well, but my initial thought is that you can make that config a one-time pop up when you first install the mod that makes you pick neutral (the way it is now) or gender based. Someone can still dig out the cfg and changes it that way though...

I suppose the best question moving forward is, how do you have it coded to check for the "first" ribbons currently? Once we cover that we can figure out the next step.

I am in favor of there being several paths to the orange bag. Whichever they are, they should be experiences such that you could imagine that Kerbal saying, "I've seen things, man."

Also, I'm against gender-specific ribbons. They all ride the same rockets. Just because WE have a history that makes it important to us, doesn't mean that Kerbals do.

I suppose multiple paths to the orange suit would be possible. It is not what I initially had in mind, but it never hurts to add flexibility. We would just need to split the list into "required" and "optional" qualifications. It would end up along the lines of "Must have Ribbons A, B and C plus any five from this list..."

I see your point about the gender thing and agree with you completely. I really, really dislike the way we do it in the real world myself because end up splitting hairs ad nauseam to justify handing out stupidly specific awards for "The first left handed, biracial, female Ethiopian with green eyes to complete a non-stop solo transatlantic journey in a solar powered boat (no larger than 1 ton) while only eating peanut butter."

Despite my personal preference in RL, I honestly do think adding the feature (if feasible) will make the mod better for the people who actually do like and want that sort of thing for purposes of immersion and/or realism.

Remember, game/mod design is about offering options to fit a variety of different play styles...not just your own. Some people choose to play with permadeath while others choose not to pay with permadeath. Neither is right or wrong, it is just a matter of personal preference.

My main point here is, your preference to not have it in your game should not stop another player from having the option to have it in their game. If you don't like a feature, just turn that feature off and forget it exists.

And as a side note: I have even heard rumors that there are some real live females who play KSP and might appreciate this type of thing (or not) for whatever reasons they might (or might not) have at any given moment. I never try to predict the motives or reasoning of females because they exist in a state of quantum uncertainty.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Smurfalot

[blu3wolf]

Suborbital trajectories are unstable and award dangerous EVA ribbons.

Not a fan of gendered kerbals myself, so I'm sure you can see my opinion on ribbons for the first female left handed disabled african american kerbal to step on the launch pad...

[KerbMav]

True equality begins where gender is not an issue anymore.

Back to really important questions: Since I installed FF (and some other mods) I get out of memory crashes - anyone noticing something similar?

Just asking here to narrow the source of my problem down.

[Nereid]

Just want to point out that orange suit doesn't mean badass. Of the four initial Kerbals only Jeb and Val are badasses.

Oh? Really? Didn't know this yet. Thanks for clarify.

Tomorrow begins a long weekend in germany. Because of the short week, there was not enough time yet, to implement anything.

- - - Updated - - -

True equality begins where gender is not an issue anymore.

Back to really important questions: Since I installed FF (and some other mods) I get out of memory crashes - anyone noticing something similar?

Just asking here to narrow the source of my problem down.

FF may cost some memory. I can check the amount some day, but I would not think its quite much. But there is always the possibility of memory leaks...

I'm checking my RAM usage regulary and try to get it constantly below 3GB (somewhere near 3.5GB crashes will come). But most of my previous games were quite short (less than 20 missions and less than two hours of play). And even if 3GB is listed in the taskmanager, it doesn't mean anything for a C# program (because we do know nothing about the time the garbage collector is called). If FF is suspicious: copy the save, remove FF, start the copy and observe RAM usage and if crashes are still common.

ATM and/or half res textures helped a lot before 1.0.0. I have no experience with 1.0.x yet.

[blu3wolf]

My current install consistently crashes at 3.75GB memory... sadly it gets there during startup.

Seems I cant run all mods at once

[Smurfalot]

FF may cost some memory. I can check the amount some day, but I would not think its quite much. But there is always the possibility of memory leaks...

I'm checking my RAM usage regulary and try to get it constantly below 3GB (somewhere near 3.5GB crashes will come). But most of my previous games were quite short (less than 20 missions and less than two hours of play). And even if 3GB is listed in the taskmanager, it doesn't mean anything for a C# program (because we do know nothing about the time the garbage collector is called). If FF is suspicious: copy the save, remove FF, start the copy and observe RAM usage and if crashes are still common.

ATM and/or half res textures helped a lot before 1.0.0. I have no experience with 1.0.x yet.

True equality begins where gender is not an issue anymore.

Back to really important questions: Since I installed FF (and some other mods) I get out of memory crashes - anyone noticing something similar?

Just asking here to narrow the source of my problem down.

My current install consistently crashes at 3.75GB memory... sadly it gets there during startup.

Seems I cant run all mods at once

Actually I noticed KSP started using a lot more RAM after I installed FF, it causes a crash with mono.dll (essentially the game is trying to use more memory than the software will allow). The crashes always seem to happen when I recover a flight and FF ques up to determine the ribbons that should be awarded. I suspect FF might have a memory leak. As a workaround I started using OpenGL to cut down on RAM use, but you might need to check that out.

[KerbMav]

Opened a support thread with logs - game crashed when entering the pod, at least I can remember it this time happening then.

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/121143-logs-from-recent-crash-unable-to-locate-mod-at-fault?p=1936294&viewfull=1#post1936294

[Bolverker]

Hello, first off thank you for making this mod it's awesome. Definitely adds a lot more immersion to the game. That being said ever since I converted my save file over to the new format KSP now takes about a minute to start loading or longer and hangs and goes white into not responding. I select wait for program and eventually it comes around, but after that the game will additionally hang when I am playing it as well at times. It has got to the point where I have to just not run FF. Any idea on how I can fix this? Also let me know what I can do if you need more info. Thank you in advance for any assistance.

[Rhedd]

This is easily one of my top five favorite mods for KSP. Colorful ribbons make the little guys so much more lovable.

I can't seem to get a mach-x ribbon awarded, though. Are they working in 1.02?

I have a replica F-104 Starfighter that I built that'll get up to around 1100m/s at sea level (!!!) and kerbals who pilot it never even get recognized for breaking mach 1.

On another subject entirely, I noticed there was some discussion about awarding orange suits to experienced kerbals. If you decide to do that, you MUST make it optional, because to an American at least, it would be completely stupid. The orange jumpsuit has a meaning. It means you're a civilian, not military. That's why a lot of the later Shuttle pilots had orange suits but none of the Apollo astronauts did. It's not a fashion statement, it's a uniform. White=military, Orange=civilian. So the last thing I want is for my super-experienced Neil-Armstrong-analog Kerbal to suddenly get "awarded" a civilian jumpsuit. Retired, maybe? Just please, no.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Rhedd

[KerbMav]

So it crashes for me even without FF - so copy over again and do these flights again ...

[jpkerman]

Neil Armstrong was a civilian before Apollo 11, he joined the NASA Astronaut Corps in 1962. He made his first space flight, as command pilot of Gemini 8, in 1966, becoming NASA's first civilian astronaut to fly in space.

The orange Advanced Crew Escape Suit (ACES) or "pumpkin suit", was a full pressure suit that began to be worn by Space Shuttle crews after STS-65, for the ascent and entry portions of flight. The orange color is merely to allow rescue units to easily spot the astronauts in the case of an Orbiter bailout over the ocean.

[hurgar]

Neil Armstrong was a US naval aviator with over 20 combat missions in Korea. He was in the US navy and naval reserves from 1949 to 1960 when he resigned his commission. He was a civilian when he was accepted for NASA but it was his back ground as a military test pilot that got him the job.